Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Sioux-cia]

I'm curious, what does this board think a "compromise" would entail?

I, personally, can't think of any compromise that would not involve getting rid of the name and logo. I see that as the only 'compromise' that the NC$$ would find acceptable. And, IMHO, that option is NOT acceptable.

[GeauxSioux]

I, personally, can't think of any compromise that would not involve getting rid of the name and logo. I see that as the only 'compromise' that the NC$$ would find acceptable. And, IMHO, that option is NOT acceptable.

I agree with Sioux-cia. The only "compromise" that the NCAA is going to allow is the one that removes the name and logo. In the words of Yoda, agree with that I will not.

[ScottM]

I, personally, can't think of any compromise that would not involve getting rid of the name and logo. I see that as the only 'compromise' that the NC$$ would find acceptable. And, IMHO, that option is NOT acceptable.

If there is a settlement it probably will include keeping the name/logo, that's a given, and the NC$$ removing the "hostile and abusive" brand, while UND continues to maintain its AI programs and outreach to the local tribes. As well, there would probably be some sort of "voluntary" sensitivity class requirement for UND students or athletes. And the NC$$ would agree to not interfere with the name or encourage member schools to impede UND's use of it in scheduling, etc.: See Iowa's newest policy.

[PCM]

The other possibility I see is the NCAA deciding that the Spirit Lake resoultion is good enough, declares victory for "opening a dialogue" and gives UND an exemption. Or the NCAA might put UND on double-super-secret probation for five years similar to the Bradley Braves while the university attempts to work something out with the tribes.

I'm not saying that either of these is a good solution, only that I can see them as possible scenarios.

[sioux7>5]

The other possibility I see is the NCAA deciding that the Spirit Lake resoultion is good enough, declares victory for "opening a dialogue" and gives UND an exemption. Or the NCAA might put UND on double-super-secret probation for five years similar to the Bradley Braves while the university attempts to work something out with the tribes.

I'm not saying that either of these is a good solution, only that I can see them as possible scenarios.

I agree with you PCM, by the way the NCAA has never been to UND to actually take a look at everything. But i was watching Bryant Gumbel last night on HBO and they talked about these Super Prep schools for basketball. The NCAA has visited those high schools to check on them to make sure that the players are actually getting an education. But yet they will label UND as an Abusive school after never being there. Just a thought.

[redwing77]

I'm with Sioux-cia on this.

Here's what the compromise is from the NCAA standard:

"Ok, we love UND and what they do for DI hockey and we're excited to see UND step up into division one in other sports as well. Let's put these unpleasantries behind us. You can remain as you are with your school colors and the UND logo. We just wish you drop the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and the Indian logo. In return for your cooperation we are prepared to feature UND in a favorable media promotion and remove them from the hostile and abusive list."

Now, take that paragraph and twist it using legalese and clever media pandering and you have it.

There is no such compromise. This goes to court.

[sioux7>5]

I'm with Sioux-cia on this.

Here's what the compromise is from the NCAA standard:

"Ok, we love UND and what they do for DI hockey and we're excited to see UND step up into division one in other sports as well. Let's put these unpleasantries behind us. You can remain as you are with your school colors and the UND logo. We just wish you drop the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and the Indian logo. In return for your cooperation we are prepared to feature UND in a favorable media promotion and remove them from the hostile and abusive list."

Now, take that paragraph and twist it using legalese and clever media pandering and you have it.

There is no such compromise. This goes to court.

I do not want to sound over confident if this goes to court, but the fact still remains UND(the Great State of North Dakota)won on almost every point of the first hearing for the injunction. The judge would not have granted if he did not think the UND would win if these fact were presented in the actual court case. Just my opinion.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

If there is a settlement it probably will include keeping the name/logo, that's a given, and the NC$$ removing the "hostile and abusive" brand, while UND continues to maintain its AI programs and outreach to the local tribes. As well, there would probably be some sort of "voluntary" sensitivity class requirement for UND students or athletes. And the NC$$ would agree to not interfere with the name or encourage member schools to impede UND's use of it in scheduling, etc.: See Iowa's newest policy.

I think it would be interesting if the compromise included one (but not all) of the namesake tribes giving its blessing to your school, and the NCAA declaring "that's good enough for us" and taking you off their s-list. I wonder if the other tribes would sue?

And if they do sue, who would they sue? The school? The NCAA?

See also-Box: Pandora's.

[dagies]

I think it would be interesting if the compromise included one (but not all) of the namesake tribes giving its blessing to your school, and the NCAA declaring "that's good enough for us" and taking you off their s-list. I wonder if the other tribes would sue?

And if they do sue, who would they sue? The school? The NCAA?

See also-Box: Pandora's.

I think part of the real problem is that, with other schools they've only needed approval from one tribe. We have that, yet the NCAA won't accept that because it was given in about 2000 (and the NCAA couldn't get them to change their mind. editorial comment).

[Chewey]

I woudn't get hopes too high about a settlement. Compromise and settlement are not part of the PC mindset or vernacular. Like so many cockroaches, Brand, Harrison and their PC ninnies (See James Grijalva et al.) will be back. The NC00 must placate its allies. Compromise and settlement are concepts that are much too plebian for such erudite types. This goes to trial regardless of Jahnke's plea for compromise.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think part of the real problem is that, with other schools they've only needed approval from one tribe. We have that, yet the NCAA won't accept that because it was given in about 2000 (and the NCAA couldn't get them to change their mind. editorial comment).

I don't know what the situation was with Utah and the Utes, but thinking about Florida State-they only had partial support IIRC. What got the NCAA off their back was two things IMHO: the fact that they had support from the in-state tribe and the dissenting tribe was out-of-state; and also the idea that the Seminole Tribe in Florida apparently was willing to join Florida State University (and the State of Florida) in the proposed lawsuit against the NCAA.

North Dakota doesn't have either of those things going for them right now AFAIK.

[PCM]

I don't know what the situation was with Utah and the Utes, but thinking about Florida State-they only had partial support IIRC. What got the NCAA off their back was two things IMHO: the fact that they had support from the in-state tribe and the dissenting tribe was out-of-state; and also the idea that the Seminole Tribe in Florida apparently was willing to join Florida State University (and the State of Florida) in the proposed lawsuit against the NCAA.

No, what got the NCAA off FSU's back was that the Executive Committee implemented the policy believing the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma was against the FSU nickname. The NCAA knew full well that FSU had the support of the Florida Seminole tribe, but it counted on opposition from Oklahoma to justify its action. But the Seminole tribal council in Okahoma almost immediately passed a resolution overwhelmingly supporting FSU, making the NCAA's claim that it spent more than four years exhaustively studying the issue look as bogus as it was. The namesake tribe exemption had to be invented out of thin air to enable the NCAA to save face.

North Dakota doesn't have either of those things going for them right now AFAIK.

I read that there's at least one Ute tribe in Colorado that opposes Utah's use of the Ute nickname. I know for a fact that there are other Chippewa tribes that oppose Central Michigan's nickname. UND has a resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe supporting its use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Using the NCAA's own standards, that should be enough. What Sioux tribes in other states think shouldn't matter.

Edited March 22, 2007 by PCM

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

UND has a resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe supporting its use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Using the NCAA's own standards, that should be enough. What Sioux tribes in other states think shouldn matter.

The Spirit Lake Tribe along with other tribes who are against the nickname are based within North Dakota, correct? I would argue that if Spirit Lake alone was based in your state and all of the dissenters were based out-of-state, your hopes of coming to a compromise with the NCAA would be far greater. That's JMHO.

The other thing FSU had in its favor was the larger in-state population of their namesake tribe vs. the Oklahoma Seminoles. I don't know how that works for your situation.

And I would argue that the NCAA has no standards at all; but that's neither here nor there.

No, what got the NCAA off FSU's back was that the Executive Committee implemented the policy believing the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma was against the FSU nickname. The NCAA knew full well that FSU had the support of the Florida Seminole tribe, but it counted on opposition from Oklahoma to justify its action. But the Seminole tribal council in Okahoma almost immediately passed a resolution overwhelmingly supporting FSU....

That's true. I had forgotten about the "resolution that wasn't a resolution". Thanks for that correction. That definitely hastened things along. Personally, I'd say that even if the Oklahoma Seminoles had passed a resolution against the Seminole nickname five years ago and decided to stand behind it in 2006, the NCAA would still have been scrambling to get out from under the threatened lawsuit backed by the "full faith and credit" of every politician in Florida. But that's JMHO. What does Florida have, the third or fourth most votes in the Electoral College? Even I can't believe the NCAA would be so stupid as to try and buck that in Congress. They gave us a fifth BCS bowl just based on Louisiana's (far smaller) amount of clout.

.....making the NCAA's claim that it spent more than four years exhaustively studying the issue look as bogus as it was.

What they spent four years doing was listening to one side, and only one side. Kind of like our Board of Trustees at Illinois.

The namesake tribe exemption had to be invented out of thin air to enable the NCAA to save face.

Well, something sure had to be invented, and invented quickly in order to get them out of a PR disaster (as well as one whopper of a lawsuit).

BTW, another PR disaster averted was the Pembroke University situation. Now IIRC, they had no namesake tribe simply because they are either the Indians or the Braves. But, their local Tribe quickly moved behind the school, noting the University itself originiated to serve Native Americans. I guess we can term this the "Goodwill" exemption.

I'm still unclear what got the Bradley Braves off the NCAA s-list. I think the fact that one idea floated by locals was to simply rename the teams the Bradley BRAVE (and let people mistake them for the Braves) might have been influential. Maybe this is the "We Got Outflanked" exemption.

[The Sicatoka]

There are three Sioux tribes with (parts or all of) reservations in ND:

- Spirit Lake (completely in ND and closest to UND)

- Standing Rock (straddles the border between SD)

- Sisseton-Wahpeton (just enough in ND for a casino on I-29 at the ND/SD border)

There are two other reservations in ND:

- Turtle Mountain (Chippewa) at the Canadian border

- Three Affiliated Tribes (Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara) in western ND

Central Michigan has support of one of five Chippewa tribes in Michigan: good enough.

North Dakota has support of one (Spirit Lake) of three Sioux tribes in North Dakota: not good enough.

1/5 > 1/3: Must be that new 'NCAA' math.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Central Michigan has support of one of five Chippewa tribes in Michigan: good enough. North Dakota has support of one (Spirit Lake) of three Sioux tribes in North Dakota: not good enough.

1/5 > 1/3: Must be that new 'NCAA' math.

Interesting, thank you for that information.

Simply as a request for info, any ideas on where the "populations" of various tribes might be listed?

Again, I appreciate the information. I'm learning a lot today. We never had anything like this at Illinois, our arguments were all based on theories rather than specific tribal resolutions.

[WiSioux]

Not exactly Sioux Name related... but I'm sure that it will not be seen in a positive light by many people...

Eagle Stolen from UND American Indian Center

[Stromer]

Not exactly Sioux Name related... but I'm sure that it will not be seen in a positive light by many people...

Eagle Stolen from UND American Indian Center

I knew there was something different when I looked at the center on my way back from class. I am sure this won't go over well at all.

[Goon]

Hopefully they will find the eagle.

[redwing77]

Forgive my horrific bias, but...

I'd start looking at the frat houses.

[Siouxmama]

Forgive my horrific bias, but...

I'd start looking at the frat houses.

Redwing77,

As the Mom of a fraternity member....

so would I.

[PCM]

Forgive my horrific bias, but...

I'd start looking at the frat houses.

Pointing fingers with absolutely no evidence is reprehensible, in my opinion.

I would prefer to think that nobody on campus would be so stupid.

[Sioux-cia]

It could be anyone. The motive could be as simple as someone wanting the eagle for their own or someone who thinks they can sell it and make a buck. At this point, only the thief knows for sure.

I agree, don't start pointing fingers without knowing the facts. Doing so will only come back to bite you in the azz.

[HockeyMom]

What kind of an idiot steals something like that? It looks bad, even if it was a random act of vandalism. I hope they catch them.

[dmksioux]

Anybody have a picture of the eagle? Maybe reading too much into it, but could it have anything to do with the possiblility that we are playing the BC EAGLES on Thursday? Maybe someones trying to make a statement?

[Sioux-cia]

Anybody have a picture of the eagle? Maybe reading too much into it, but could it have anything to do with the possiblility that we are playing the BC EAGLES on Thursday? Maybe someones trying to make a statement?

Picture is in the story link. If that's true, I hope the idiot doesn't bring it to St. Louis! There are a lot of Fighting Sioux fans who will NOT be amused!!!