ScottM Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Not really news to us, but still ... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/03/22/us/ap-hkc-no-name-north-dakota.html?hp Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Spirit Lake seems to be putting most of their eggs in one basket with the response to the NCAA request for dismissal of the lawsuit. According to the story they are using the pipe ceremony as the main basis of their case. They found a picture which includes one elder from Spirit Lake, which they claim makes Spirit Lake a party to the pipe ceremony. Maybe some of the legal minds on the board can provide some input. To me the pipe ceremony is difficult to prove because there are so many different versions of what did or did not happen, who was actually part of the group, and what was involved in the ceremony. The Tribal Council at Standing Rock claiming that it wasn't an official pipe ceremony will probably also be considered. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/232753/ Quote
Hayduke Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Not really news to us, but still ... http://www.nytimes.c...-dakota.html?hp "The northern prairie can be a cold, dark place in the winter, and without any professional teams the North Dakota hockey program has been the state's favorite entertainment for decades." Yup. Thus, the jealousy of the tractor milkers down south... 1 Quote
Chewey Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Spirit Lake seems to be putting most of their eggs in one basket with the response to the NCAA request for dismissal of the lawsuit. According to the story they are using the pipe ceremony as the main basis of their case. They found a picture which includes one elder from Spirit Lake, which they claim makes Spirit Lake a party to the pipe ceremony. Maybe some of the legal minds on the board can provide some input. To me the pipe ceremony is difficult to prove because there are so many different versions of what did or did not happen, who was actually part of the group, and what was involved in the ceremony. The Tribal Council at Standing Rock claiming that it wasn't an official pipe ceremony will probably also be considered. http://www.grandfork...icle/id/232753/ There are pictures of what happened and there's the news article - I think a couple of them - from 1969. The pipe ceremoney happened; that's fact. We know that some of the people who filed affidavits were part of the group or witnessed it on the outskirts like Pam B, an affiant. What's the pipe ceremony mean and what's its significance? The affidavits tell you. The opposition will tell you that it was not "legal" because the laws "outlawing" indians from practicing their religious ceremonies were in effect. Great racist argument in response guys. Just another arrow in the quiver, if you will, for the proponents of the nickname. This is the crap that JTA and RHHIT ascribe to and is the "basis" for the NCAA not to rely on the pipe ceremony. Indeed, I doubt the NCAA even bothered to figure out the pipe ceremony and certainly did not examine any school/news archives or interview any people, except probably RRIT, JTA and Avis Little Eagle. Even Leonard Peltier, certainly an "activist" and probably would not be any friend to the pro-nickname crowd, has written as to the sanctity and binding nature of the pipe ceremony. People who care have researched this - really researched it - and have interviewed a lot of people about it. The NCAA is going to have to do some serious backtracking because they may well wind up looking like 14 carat fools for discarding, in completely racist and indifferent fashion, sacred tribal ceremonies. What research did the NCAA do before discounting the sacred pipe ceremony? Hopefully, it just did not take JTA and RHHIT word for it. Where are the letters to tribal officials/elders memorializing such research? Where are the indicia of good faith due diliegence? They've taken a racist, high-handed, indifferent, expedient, insensitive and "hostile and abusive" (at the very least in terms of omission as to what they did not do) take on this and they've disrespected and besmirched sacred customs of the people they're ostensibly trying to protect. And, if they've listened to JTA and RRHIT who have a position based upon the "laws" (yes, white laws) proscribing the practice of native religious ceremonies, they've relied upon "white mans' laws" to do it too. It its arrogant myopia, the NCAA has failed to appreicate or even recognize how bad it could look on this. You can bet your right arm that there are a lot of very committed people (both white and Native American) working very hard to help the NCAA hang itself with its contradictions, double-speak, equivocations, failure to investigate or perform any due diligence of any kind, and simple justifications. The NCAA should seriously be performing damage control on this. In addition to the above, it's aligning itself with a slim 2 person tribal council majority PREVENTING a vote that should not even be necessary in the first place but pride and arrogane will likely prevent it from doing so, at least for now. If all goes well, one word will describe the NCAA and its Bernard Franklins - Chagrin. Quote
Shawn-O Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Anyone pinning their hopes on the peace pipe....has been hitting the hash pipe. Quote
Chewey Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 It's not really a question of "pinning their hopes." It's a matter of dispeling ignorance (as for the NCAA) and educating people, including a Federal Judge. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 There are pictures of what happened and there's the news article - I think a couple of them - from 1969. The pipe ceremoney happened; that's fact. We know that some of the people who filed affidavits were part of the group or witnessed it on the outskirts like Pam B, an affiant. What's the pipe ceremony mean and what's its significance? The affidavits tell you. The opposition will tell you that it was not "legal" because the laws "outlawing" indians from practicing their religious ceremonies were in effect. Great racist argument in response guys. Just another arrow in the quiver, if you will, for the proponents of the nickname. This is the crap that JTA and RHHIT ascribe to and is the "basis" for the NCAA not to rely on the pipe ceremony. Indeed, I doubt the NCAA even bothered to figure out the pipe ceremony and certainly did not examine any school/news archives or interview any people, except probably RRIT, JTA and Avis Little Eagle. Even Leonard Peltier, certainly an "activist" and probably would not be any friend to the pro-nickname crowd, has written as to the sanctity and binding nature of the pipe ceremony. People who care have researched this - really researched it - and have interviewed a lot of people about it. The NCAA is going to have to do some serious backtracking because they may well wind up looking like 14 carat fools for discarding, in completely racist and indifferent fashion, sacred tribal ceremonies. What research did the NCAA do before discounting the sacred pipe ceremony? Hopefully, it just did not take JTA and RHHIT word for it. Where are the letters to tribal officials/elders memorializing such research? Where are the indicia of good faith due diliegence? They've taken a racist, high-handed, indifferent, expedient, insensitive and "hostile and abusive" (at the very least in terms of omission as to what they did not do) take on this and they've disrespected and besmirched sacred customs of the people they're ostensibly trying to protect. And, if they've listened to JTA and RRHIT who have a position based upon the "laws" (yes, white laws) proscribing the practice of native religious ceremonies, they've relied upon "white mans' laws" to do it too. It its arrogant myopia, the NCAA has failed to appreicate or even recognize how bad it could look on this. You can bet your right arm that there are a lot of very committed people (both white and Native American) working very hard to help the NCAA hang itself with its contradictions, double-speak, equivocations, failure to investigate or perform any due diligence of any kind, and simple justifications. The NCAA should seriously be performing damage control on this. In addition to the above, it's aligning itself with a slim 2 person tribal council majority PREVENTING a vote that should not even be necessary in the first place but pride and arrogane will likely prevent it from doing so, at least for now. If all goes well, one word will describe the NCAA and its Bernard Franklins - Chagrin. I have been told by someone on staff at UND during time that it was not meant to be an official pipe ceremony. They say that it was a group from Standing Rock coming to UND to get some help on a project. The event was more of a photo op then a ceremony. They also say that President Starcher was very fond of wearing a headdress, and that there are many pictures in UND archives of President Starcher in a headdress. The NCAA discounted the pipe ceremony because there are so many disagreements about who, what and why. That is why they asked the tribes to provide written confirmation of any approval that had been given. Standing Rock refused to give the written confirmation. It was a group from Standing Rock that was supposed to have performed the ceremony, so it would make sense to most people that they would be the ones to decide if it was an official ceremony or not. That isn't up to the NCAA to decide. And they didn't have a legal obligation to do that. It is going to be hard for any court to make the NCAA look bad because they chose to believe the current government of Standing Rock over the variety of stories that are told about the ceremony. 1 Quote
Shawn-O Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 It's not really a question of "pinning their hopes." It's a matter of dispeling ignorance (as for the NCAA) and educating people, including a Federal Judge. I have been reading your essays on this topic for quite some time waiting for the big bombshell moment coming and the victory over the evil NCAA bogeyman. I don't think it's coming. Quote
KSSioux Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Here is a NY Times OpEd from, of all people Bill Maher, that gives a shout out to the Fighting Sioux. Not a Bill Maher fan, but I think it fits this topic. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/please-stop-apologizing.html?_r=1&hp Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Not really news to us, but still ... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/03/22/us/ap-hkc-no-name-north-dakota.html?hp Yet another national article which omits the Spirit Lake fight against the NCAA dictate.. Like all the others, plenty of backgound info in the article but conspicuously absent is Any mention of the Sioux peoples fight. Quote
ScottM Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Yet another national article which omits the Spirit Lake fight against the NCAA dictate.. Like all the others, plenty of backgound info in the article but conspicuously absent is Any mention of the Sioux peoples fight. In reality, nobody in power really gives a damn about SL, SR, Sisseton, Mille Lacs, Red Lake, or any other band. If they did, the reservation system and the dated notion of "tribal sovereignty" would be dismantled, and the US would end its own version of apartheid. 1 Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Yet another national article which omits the Spirit Lake fight against the NCAA dictate.. Like all the others, plenty of backgound info in the article but conspicuously absent is Any mention of the Sioux peoples fight. People don't care. It isn't as big a story as you think it is. Quote
dlsiouxfan Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Yet another national article which omits the Spirit Lake fight against the NCAA dictate.. Like all the others, plenty of backgound info in the article but conspicuously absent is Any mention of the Sioux peoples fight. People file ridiculous lawsuits that have no chance of success everyday in America. Not all of them are news stories and neither is this one. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 In reality, nobody in power really gives a damn about SL, SR, Sisseton, Mille Lacs, Red Lake, or any other band. If they did, the reservation system and the dated notion of "tribal sovereignty" would be dismantled, and the US would end its own version of apartheid. and we shouldn't give a goddam about the people in power because IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN POWER, IM TALIKING ABOUT THE PUBLIC! I'm talking about getting the message out to the public because public perception in the only play we have against the "people in power" the public does not know the truth because the media is not reporting it nationally. With the exception of one article from ESPN, non of the articles in the NATIONAL forum tell the truth about the Sioux fight to keep the name. Sorry pal, they just don't. I've read/listened to 30 articles/segments in the last 60 days in the national media and they are just plain leaving it out. It's a fact. Period!! Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 and we shouldn't give a goddam about the people in power because IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN POWER, IM TALIKING ABOUT THE PUBLIC! I'm talking about getting the message out to the public because public perception in the only play we have against the "people in power" the public does not know the truth because the media is not reporting it nationally. With the exception of one article from ESPN, non of the articles in the NATIONAL forum tell the truth about the Sioux fight to keep the name. Sorry pal, they just don't. I've read/listened to 30 articles/segments in the last 60 days in the national media and they are just plain leaving it out. It's a fact. Period!! Obviously, not everyone finds the story as interesting as you. You couldn't possibly believe that there is a national conspiracy to withhold the fact that people on Spirit Lake have filed a lawsuit against the NCAA. It has been told, and yet people don't really care. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 People don't care. It isn't as big a story as you think it is. REALLY? So your saying that all of the news story writers and/or editors unilaterally feel that people wouldn't be interested in the fact that the NCAA is being sued by the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe and that the Spirit lake Sioux people are the ones that STARTED the petitions to get a statewide vote on the matter? Yet the same news story writers decided that the masses of their reading audience would care about how North Dakotans are resisting the NCAA's desire to out the name? REALLY??... BTW, I copied the HEADLINE news articles on Foxnews.com. I suppose you would say that all of those articles are much more interesting than the irony of the Victims (Sioux People) suing and otherwise fighting the heroes (the NCAA) for basically meddling into their affairs? More on how wrong you are in my next post.. - 'Stand your ground' law faces scrutiny after shootingUSGS: Micro-quake in 'booming' Wisconsin cityEXCLUSIVE: Green fund looks to UN for legal immunityNJ lawmaker wants minor criminals to hand over DNA - California prisoner exodus sparks safety concerns Obama approves leg of Keystone pipeline project$160B cloud 'tsunami' threatens Gates' empire French terror suspect dies after standoff with police - Al Qaeda: US teacher killed over Christian beliefsDid ATF miss chance to nab 'Furious' suspect? - US gun sales soar on restriction fearsTeacher to class: Find flaws with GOP candidates - Jeb Bush: Rubio should be GOP vice president - 2012 Candidate TrackerMom dies after giving birth to tripletsChina tightens online chatter amid political rumorsFlorida man to plead guilty in celeb hackingLA police to ignore California impound law - California marijuana workers ready to unionizeBreitbart supporters set up trust fund for his childrenBeatles mansion hangs out a for-sale sign Attorney denies reported call girl claim that John Edwards was client Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Really??? Obviously, yes. If writers and editors thought that tribe members bringing the lawsuit was more interesting they would print that. They are in the business to drive traffic to their sites, sell newspapers and attract viewers. If they thought it was a hot story they would use it, and probably beat it to death. You find the story fascinating. Not everyone does. It has been covered, and those same people don't think that it's interesting enough to keep repeating. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 People file ridiculous lawsuits that have no chance of success everyday in America. Not all of them are news stories and neither is this one. So I decided to go to the Sunday night game in Denver va the Badgers, ya know the first round of the WCHA playoffs two weeks ago. I usually don't get to go to DU games because they play at the same time as the Sioux so I would see the outcome of the Sioux game on the scoreboard and it would ruin my Sioux game for me... Anyway I figured I would take my son to the game, a chance to see some good college hockey live. We got in for free after looking for tickets for about 2 mins. We got tickes in the gold club free food and all. The arena was about 1/2 full, there were about 300 Wiscy fans there, needless to say a far cry from a Sioux DU regular season game. Anyhow, I had quite an interesting evening to say the least. See I wore my Sioux jersey, ya know Sioux pride and all. I got zero !@#$ for it BTW. The bizzare thing was that I was approached by people, I would guess somewhere between 10 and 15 times, asking me what is going on with the Sioux name battle. First I got questions about it in the food line in the gold club. Then at my seat, then in the smoking area. Later we decided to go sit with the Wisconsin fans and cheer them over DU because DU fans are pathetic hockey fans to say the least. I sat right behind Dahl's mom and #19's mom, so they ask me about the name, the people behind me ask me about the name. During the intermission, we had two different people walk over to our seats to ask about the name. So no one cares about it huh"?? BTW, I asked all of them if they were aware that Native Americans were leading the fight to keep the name and guess how many of them did?? Ya, you got it buddy, Zero!! The really funny thing was how uniform their response was when I told them the truth of the matter. "Someone needs to do something about the NCAA, they are out of control" ...So you keep thinking that no one cares becase the MEDIA hasn't told you to care, and I'll keep knowing the truth about it and you. People care. Period!! Quote
dlsiouxfan Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 So I decided to go to the Sunday night game in Denver va the Badgers, ya know the first round of the WCHA playoffs two weeks ago. I usually don't get to go to DU games because they play at the same time as the Sioux so I would see the outcome of the Sioux game on the scoreboard and it would ruin my Sioux game for me... Anyway I figured I would take my son to the game, a chance to see some good college hockey live. We got in for free after looking for tickets for about 2 mins. We got tickes in the gold club free food and all. The arena was about 1/2 full, there were about 300 Wiscy fans there, needless to say a far cry from a Sioux DU regular season game. Anyhow, I had quite an interesting evening to say the least. See I wore my Sioux jersey, ya know Sioux pride and all. I got zero !@#$ for it BTW. The bizzare thing was that I was approached by people, I would guess somewhere between 10 and 15 times, asking me what is going on with the Sioux name battle. First I got questions about it in the food line in the gold club. Then at my seat, then in the smoking area. Later we decided to go sit with the Wisconsin fans and cheer them over DU because DU fans are pathetic hockey fans to say the least. I sat right behind Dahl's mom and #19's mom, so they ask me about the name, the people behind me ask me about the name. During the intermission, we had two different people walk over to our seats to ask about the name. So no one cares about it huh"?? BTW, I asked all of them if they were aware that Native Americans were leading the fight to keep the name and guess how many of them did?? Ya, you got it buddy, Zero!! The really funny thing was how uniform their response was when I told them the truth of the matter. "Someone needs to do something about the NCAA, they are out of control" ...So you keep thinking that no one cares becase the MEDIA hasn't told you to care, and I'll keep knowing the truth about it and you. People care. Period!! They said "Someone needs to do something about the NCAA, they are out of control" and then went back to doing whatever they were doing before you told them this story, most of them probably forgot about it 10 minutes after you were done talking to them. I guarantee that none of them called their congressmen in righteous indignation, none of them will send donations to UND's athletic department to mitigate the harm from NCAA sanctions, none of them will send a single dollar to Spirit Lake so that they can hire an attorney competent enough to at least proofread a legal brief before submitting it to the court. Not one of the people you talk to will do a single thing to help UND keep the nickname and they "know all the facts" as you claim. It's time to grow up and move one. 3 Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 They said "Someone needs to do something about the NCAA, they are out of control" and then went back to doing whatever they were doing before you told them this story, most of them probably forgot about it 10 minutes after you were done talking to them. I guarantee that none of them called their congressmen in righteous indignation, none of them will send donations to UND's athletic department to mitigate the harm from NCAA sanctions, none of them will send a single dollar to Spirit Lake so that they can hire an attorney competent enough to at least proofread a legal brief before submitting it to the court. Not one of the people you talk to will do a single thing to help UND keep the nickname and they "know all the facts" as you claim. It's time to grow up and move one. Not only that, he was in a college hockey facility with about 5,000 people. A place that was full of people that were interested in college hockey and very familiar with UND. He said that 10-15 people asked him about it, people that were near him in line or where he was sitting. That should be the main target audience of people that might actually be interested. People in Alabama or Utah are going to have even less interest. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Not only that, he was in a college hockey facility with about 5,000 people. A place that was full of people that were interested in college hockey and very familiar with UND. He said that 10-15 people asked him about it, people that were near him in line or where he was sitting. That should be the main target audience of people that might actually be interested. People in Alabama or Utah are going to have even less interest. ok, you got me, you have adequately presented a sound argument which explains why national media outlets like CNN, the New York Times, Washington Post, and the AP ALL write stories on the Sioux name but LEAVE OUT the part about the Sioux Native American's fight against the NCAA. It's because NO One cares about that part of the story, just the other parts! I get it. I am so glad there are smart people like you around to help me see the way...wheeewsaa! Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 ok, you got me, you have adequately presented a sound argument which explains why national media outlets like CNN, the New York Times, Washington Post, and the AP ALL write stories on the Sioux name but LEAVE OUT the part about the Sioux Native American's fight against the NCAA. It's because NO One cares about that part of the story, just the other parts! I get it. I am so glad there are smart people like you around to help me see the way...wheeewsaa! You whine and complain on this forum about the issue not getting enough coverage, or that it isn't covered the way that you want. First, why tell us? Do you think that we could do something about it if we wanted to? Complain to the people that aren't writing the stories. My guess is that you won't get the results you want, but take a shot. You ask the question here so I give my opinion. Then you get mad because you don't like my opinion. If you don't want the opinion, don't ask the question. Second, why do you think that they are "avoiding the issue"? Do you believe that there's some huge conspiracy? Have all the news outlets in the country gotten together on this one story just to leave out that part? In your mind, why aren't they including that part of the story? Are we the ones to blame? Let me guess, somehow it's Dr. Kelley's fault. Maybe he controls all of the media in the country just like he controls 2 different collegiate conferences. 1 Quote
yababy8 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 You whine and complain on this forum I kind of thought of it as pointing out and shedding light on... It is what it is, the fact that media stories are not including the facts related to the Sioux tribes part in the name fight is a FACT that exists outside of me and you. If you don't believe me then show me the articles. If you do agree that it is true but don't think it matters, I say it does. I say it is everything. It is what makes the whole name change thing appalling. It IS the center of the fight to keep the name and people need to understand this. I write what I do here for everyone, you are just my muse, a simple tool I use to demonstrate poor thinking in regard to the Sioux name fight. People like you and ScottM and FightingSioux4life are simply characters performing a service to all of us who see the truth. Once again read what is in bold above. Again that is a truth. Doesn't matter what I say, doesn't matter what you say, doesn't matter what anyone says. It is. It exists. You ask my why it exists. I don't fricking know. I don't really care. i just believe that telling people will be beneficial. I love the Sioux. I don't want the name to change and I know others feel the same way. I will be righteously indignant about the NCAA and the media's actions because they are affecting what I love and they have no good reason to do so. I will always fight that fight. If we don't we lose and lose big. Things like self determination and such... So whine, complain, point out, shed light on, whatever you want to call it, it needs to be done Quote
Bison Dan Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 It seems the idea has the AC pissants excited and they are calling some guy named Ira names (go figure). UND doesn't blame the issue on the AC. UND and the SBoHE wants to move on. We didn't get the required approval from the tribes and have been trying to retire the name. The legislature and some of our citizens are trying mandate UND keep the name. It isn't right for the NCAA to sanction UND for things out of their control. What the NCAA did in the southern states, whose legislators mandated continued use of the rebel flag, was to sanction the state . Some AC fans consider similar action against the state of N. Dak. preposterous and think it is a good idea to support the petitioners and the referendum. They may wish to rethink that one. I doubt the NCAA would go that far, but if the NCAA wants to put the issue to rest once and for all that is likely all it would take on their part. Fans of both schools and U of Mary and Minot would vote against it. The AC folks may consider that trying to screw UND athletics may not be worth all the fun they are having. The NCAA is private organization run by University presidents. I wouldn't bet on anything it may or may not do. The only people that are trying to "screw" UND athletics are the UND hockey people. This is all hockey related as there are lots of hockey only posters on this thread that are for keeping the name. NDSU has nothing to do with it and in fact are sick of the whole process. I'm thinking that there won't be a vote and the issue will die (hopefully). You need to direct your anger somewhere else. Quote
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