Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[iramurphy]

You are correct. The logo is no different, in idea, than say the US Flag. It in itself may not be that great but it is an image and a bonding idea that instills a sense of pride and ownership in that which it represents.

I am sure you didn't mean this and I don't agree it is an excellent analogy. I don't think you thought this one through.

The US flag stands for so much more than a bleeping logo of any sort. The flag and what it represents and the sacrifices made by so many so we can have this debate should never be forgotten. What that flag stands for should never in any way be compared to a college logo of any sort. Anyone who thinks so needs to step back and get a life. Many have been willing to give their lives for what that flag stands for. Fighting Sioux athletes play and compete for their fellow teamates, their coaches the University and our fans, not the logo. It is a great logo and UND has used the name and logo with class and respect but it is not and will never have the symbolism and importance of the Flag of the United states of America. That flag not only stands for freedom but the sight of that flag has given hope to so many over the years both in wartime and in peacetime.

It is a sad reflection on where we are today as a nation for anyone especially a college student or college grad not to have been able to realize this is not a good analogy.

[Blackburn87]

You have a point but but this the second time you have impugned someone's education and/or intelligence if they don't agree with you.

By the way, I have a BA and JD from UND. I will also tell you that degrees don't necessarily make anyone smarter than anyone else, either. There are plenty of people without college educations (or who didn't complete college) who can discuss a wide range of topics. Likewise, there are many Sioux fans who may or who may not have attended UND. It still makes them fans nonetheless, with an opintion on this issue.

I don't assume you're not educated or intelligent if you disagree with me (well, except MplsBison but even he can suprise me from time to time.) I do recognize these are passionate fans who come to the table with different perspectives, even among Sioux name supporters.

I love a good debate as well as anyone, but the minute someone implies that I'm an idiot because I disagree loses the battle with me.

Keep the focus, keep the faith... we can save the name and I think that's what the majority on this board want.

GO SIOUX!

[ticklethetwine]

GO SIOUX!!!!

[star2city]

It is a great logo and UND has used the name and logo with class and respect but it is not and will never have the symbolism and importance of the Flag of the United states of America. That flag not only stands for freedom but the sight of that flag has given hope to so many over the years both in wartime and in peacetime.

It is a sad reflection on where we are today as a nation for anyone especially a college student or college grad not to have been able to realize this is not a good analogy.

No one was arguing the logo and the flag have the same symbolism.

Really, I think you are missing a major point here. The Sioux logo has now become a symbol among nickname supporters of democracy, liberty, and free expression. Few other sports logos have that distinction.

If the Sioux logo survives, it would have even deeper meaning, history, and significance than anyone now realizes.

[GeauxSioux]

There are lot of comments being written, from both sides of the issue, on the Bismarck Tribune website in referenced to a recent article. I haven't had a chance to read through them all, but it is interesting reading the different perspectives.

Fighting Sioux nickname supporter says 'it's not over'

[krangodance]

What is magical about Nov 30th 2010? What if the SR votes on Dec 1st, 12:01am to support the nickname? Oh too bad, it's too late now?

I find it very hard to believe that all the fire and passion for the Sioux nickname simply vanishes because the numbers on the calendar advance forward by one.

i doubt the passion for the nickname will vanish, but it will be nothing more than that...passion. the ncaa has established a deadline to gain tribal support for use of the nickname and logo.

i'm not sure what you're getting at with these posts. there's a deadline set. either it's met or it's not met.

as an analogy: once election day for the presidency of the united states came and went, obama was elected. some people were thrilled about that. some people were up in arms over the results. regardless of how anybody felt, though, the deadline to vote had come and gone. anybody who wanted to bitch about the results was certainly welcome to do so, but that's the extent of their influence by then.

i view the nickname issue the same way. once the deadline has come and gone, then if a vote was not conducted, it's too late.

if you're asking if i think people will continue to fight to keep the name if a vote is in after the deadline, then i have to say...maybe, but those people are confused because it's too late. if you're asking if i think people will continue to present arguments as to why the name should not have been retired, well i'm most certain they will. i won't be part of their ranks because i'll consider it a dead issue at that point, but if others want to continue talking about it, then that's their option.

if the name is retired and an opportunity arises to get the name back someday, then i'll definitely support that option, but that's not likely.

my hope is that standing rock will get a vote in before the deadline and the results of that vote will be an overwhelming show of support for the nickname and logo. if that happens, i'm confident the name will be retained. i'm also confident that in any other scenario, barring a re-negotiation of the terms laid out by the ncaa, will result in the nickname and logo being retired.

am i clear yet?

[krangodance]

I am sure you didn't mean this and I don't agree it is an excellent analogy. I don't think you thought this one through.

The US flag stands for so much more than a bleeping logo of any sort. The flag and what it represents and the sacrifices made by so many so we can have this debate should never be forgotten. What that flag stands for should never in any way be compared to a college logo of any sort. Anyone who thinks so needs to step back and get a life. Many have been willing to give their lives for what that flag stands for. Fighting Sioux athletes play and compete for their fellow teamates, their coaches the University and our fans, not the logo. It is a great logo and UND has used the name and logo with class and respect but it is not and will never have the symbolism and importance of the Flag of the United states of America. That flag not only stands for freedom but the sight of that flag has given hope to so many over the years both in wartime and in peacetime.

It is a sad reflection on where we are today as a nation for anyone especially a college student or college grad not to have been able to realize this is not a good analogy.

is this from an oprah transcript?

[iramurphy]

You have a point but but this the second time you have impugned someone's education and/or intelligence if they don't agree with you.

By the way, I have a BA and JD from UND. I will also tell you that degrees don't necessarily make anyone smarter than anyone else, either. There are plenty of people without college educations (or who didn't complete college) who can discuss a wide range of topics. Likewise, there are many Sioux fans who may or who may not have attended UND. It still makes them fans nonetheless, with an opintion on this issue.

I don't assume you're not educated or intelligent if you disagree with me (well, except MplsBison but even he can suprise me from time to time.) I do recognize these are passionate fans who come to the table with different perspectives, even among Sioux name supporters.

I love a good debate as well as anyone, but the minute someone implies that I'm an idiot because I disagree loses the battle with me.

Keep the focus, keep the faith... we can save the name and I think that's what the majority on this board want.

GO SIOUX!

I didn't infer anyone is uneducated, I simply stated my opinion that it is sad if people who have experienced college, both the academic experience as well as the social experience to feel this is a good analogy. (not because they agree or disagree with me). Maybe the academic experience at UND has changed that much but I would hope people might understand where some folks might be offended by this analogy, especially if they have no horse in this race. I might argue about what passion I might have for UND but it is for the University, the teams, the athletes, the students, the fans and the traditions. That includes the name and logo but it is not defined by it. Maybe I am too old, but most combat veterans who are also former Sioux athletes would not compare the logo to the flag. As I stated, I doubt they meant it and probably hadn't thought it through. Has nothing to do with who is or isn't educated. Being educated doesn't mean you are intelligent. I am a supporter of the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I do get their point. I am not sure how you inferred I thought you were an idiot because you might disagree with me. However, counselor, now that you have stated you are an attorney.....

[MplsBison]

i doubt the passion for the nickname will vanish, but it will be nothing more than that...passion. the ncaa has established a deadline to gain tribal support for use of the nickname and logo.

i'm not sure what you're getting at with these posts. there's a deadline set. either it's met or it's not met.

as an analogy: once election day for the presidency of the united states came and went, obama was elected. some people were thrilled about that. some people were up in arms over the results. regardless of how anybody felt, though, the deadline to vote had come and gone. anybody who wanted to bitch about the results was certainly welcome to do so, but that's the extent of their influence by then.

i view the nickname issue the same way. once the deadline has come and gone, then if a vote was not conducted, it's too late.

if you're asking if i think people will continue to fight to keep the name if a vote is in after the deadline, then i have to say...maybe, but those people are confused because it's too late. if you're asking if i think people will continue to present arguments as to why the name should not have been retired, well i'm most certain they will. i won't be part of their ranks because i'll consider it a dead issue at that point, but if others want to continue talking about it, then that's their option.

if the name is retired and an opportunity arises to get the name back someday, then i'll definitely support that option, but that's not likely.

my hope is that standing rock will get a vote in before the deadline and the results of that vote will be an overwhelming show of support for the nickname and logo. if that happens, i'm confident the name will be retained. i'm also confident that in any other scenario, barring a re-negotiation of the terms laid out by the ncaa, will result in the nickname and logo being retired.

am i clear yet?

I don't understand why you have so much respect for a deadline that was set by the NCAA, when it was the NCAA that launched the attack on Native American nicknames, mascots and logos.

[Chewey]

I didn't infer anyone is uneducated, I simply stated my opinion that it is sad if people who have experienced college, both the academic experience as well as the social experience to feel this is a good analogy. (not because they agree or disagree with me). Maybe the academic experience at UND has changed that much but I would hope people might understand where some folks might be offended by this analogy, especially if they have no horse in this race. I might argue about what passion I might have for UND but it is for the University, the teams, the athletes, the students, the fans and the traditions. That includes the name and logo but it is not defined by it. Maybe I am too old, but most combat veterans who are also former Sioux athletes would not compare the logo to the flag. As I stated, I doubt they meant it and probably hadn't thought it through. Has nothing to do with who is or isn't educated. Being educated doesn't mean you are intelligent. I am a supporter of the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I do get their point. I am not sure how you inferred I thought you were an idiot because you might disagree with me. However, counselor, now that you have stated you are an attorney.....

Everybody says that until they get the insurance company not covering a medical expense or damage to the house or the car or from someone driving drunk and rear-ending them, etc. Everybody says that until they get pulled over for a DUI. Everybody says that until they get screwed over by their employer who lets them go because of their age or their neighbor who insists that two feet of the yard is really his property. Everybody says that until the mortgage lender/credit card lender holds the payment until 5 days after the due date or falsely reports something on one's credit report or does not supply all of the required TILA notices. Everybody says that until they're injured by a Toyota product with faulty brakes, etc. Everyone says that until the house they bought has subsidence and the basement collapses. When our predecessors were drafting the Constitution, the doctors' predecessors were putting leeches on people.

[mizzou/sioux]

No one was arguing the logo and the flag have the same symbolism.

Really, I think you are missing a major point here. The Sioux logo has now become a symbol among nickname supporters of democracy, liberty, and free expression. Few other sports logos have that distinction.

If the Sioux logo survives, it would have even deeper meaning, history, and significance than anyone now realizes.

Upon reflection, I think you are really on to something there regarding the fact that the Sioux logo has, in fact, become a symbol of sorts for nickname supporters in the aforesaid democracy, liberty and free expression vein, some of the very same elements reflected in the symbolism of the flag of this great country of ours. While the symbolism varies to a certain extent, I think in certain areas the comparison is relevant. I quite agree that few other sports logos in recent times anyway can make that assertion. Furthermore, in the event the Sioux logo survives, I'm convinced also that there would indeed be a deeper meaning as time goes by, and history will thank us for it.

[iramurphy]

Everybody says that until they get the insurance company not covering a medical expense or damage to the house or the car or from someone driving drunk and rear-ending them, etc. Everybody says that until they get pulled over for a DUI. Everybody says that until they get screwed over by their employer who lets them go because of their age or their neighbor who insists that two feet of the yard is really his property. Everybody says that until the mortgage lender/credit card lender holds the payment until 5 days after the due date or falsely reports something on one's credit report or does not supply all of the required TILA notices. Everybody says that until they're injured by a Toyota product with faulty brakes, etc. Everyone says that until the house they bought has subsidence and the basement collapses. When our predecessors were drafting the Constitution, the doctors' predecessors were putting leeches on people.

Say, lets get all of these attorneys you reference to force the NCAA to let us keep the name!

Lighten up Chewey. Didn't say anything bad about our esteemed legal professionals. (Only four attorneys in the family and lived with a couple of others going to school). By the way, some doctors are still using leeches and maggots. Send me your card and I will forward to their patients. Lets stick to the UND Fighting Sioux issue. Leave the Flag for a different blog and we can discuss the medical system on a different blog if you wish. I sincerely apologize to anyone (including Graham Cracker and Windy Boy) whom I may have offended.

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Really quick: My comment should not have been specifically at the US flag and I would not ever intend to tarnish it or anythings anyone has ever done for what it represents.

That said, I don't know if I consider myself educated, I have a degree from an accredited University(BS if you want more detail). My intent was moreso to say that simple things can take greater meaning than their face value. I am not as well spoken as you, but that was all I was trying to say.

[krangodance]

I don't understand why you have so much respect for a deadline that was set by the NCAA, when it was the NCAA that launched the attack on Native American nicknames, mascots and logos.

respect for the ncaa deadline? i had no say in the deadline. however, if it comes and goes and both tribes have not given approval to continue using the name, then the name is required to be changed per the agreement und has with the ncaa.

if i had my way, the name would stay until one of the tribes held a vote to get rid of it. plus, knowing what i know now, i would encourage und to continue working with the tribes to get a long term agreement signed so there wouldn't constantly be the threat that one of the tribes would vote to get rid of the name.

as it is, i had no say in the agreement that und made with the ncaa, but obviously i have to live with it. once the date has passed, that agreement will be followed through on based on the provisions of the agreement. no amount of griping will change anything at that point, which is why i would drop it at that point.

what you're suggesting would be like trying to fight the destruction of an historic building after it's been imploded, which is strange since you've been the loudest voice for tearing down the building even though it's not yet necessary and may, ultimately, not be necessary at all (analogously speaking of course).

is anybody besides mplsbison not getting this? i feel like i'm having a conversation with a parrot here.

[iramurphy]

Really quick: My comment should not have been specifically at the US flag and I would not ever intend to tarnish it or anythings anyone has ever done for what it represents.

That said, I don't know if I consider myself educated, I have a degree from an accredited University(BS if you want more detail). My intent was moreso to say that simple things can take greater meaning than their face value. I am not as well spoken as you, but that was all I was trying to say.

Hey, I am just a hick from N. Dak. I didn't think anyone meant anything derogatory, I just thought we could find a better analogy. I am not judging anyone's inteligence and I understand the point. You are as well spoken as the rest of us and your point of this taking on greater meaning to some than face value is a good point.

I also don't wish for the Fighting Sioux name supporters to waste time fighting with each other rather than supporting those who may still be able to do something to stop what seems to be the inevitable. I also don't think turning on our own whether it be the athletes, coaches, university etc. helps the issue and can only hurt our teams.

[Blackburn87]

Say, lets get all of these attorneys you reference to force the NCAA to let us keep the name!

Lighten up Chewey. Didn't say anything bad about our esteemed legal professionals. (Only four attorneys in the family and lived with a couple of others going to school). By the way, some doctors are still using leeches and maggots. Send me your card and I will forward to their patients. Lets stick to the UND Fighting Sioux issue. Leave the Flag for a different blog and we can discuss the medical system on a different blog if you wish. I sincerely apologize to anyone (including Graham Cracker and Windy Boy) whom I may have offended.

I hope I'm not the "cracker" you referenced- although MplsBison did call me a hilljack once! And thanks Chewey, as always.

Go Sioux!!!

[MplsBison]

I read you loud and clear. Your the type of guy who picks and chooses what works for your agenda. Deadline of NOV 2010 = More time for the nickname (as a fan of the nickname, you love this deadline). The SBOHE (the legal authority for governing our state's universities) motions to retire the nickname = authority doesn't work for you. Pick and chose, I get it.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

And he knows it too. He's trying to play dumb and type out long posts to avoid the point.

[krangodance]

I read you loud and clear. Your the type of guy who picks and chooses what works for your agenda. Deadline of NOV 2010 = More time for the nickname (as a fan of the nickname, you love this deadline). The SBOHE (the legal authority for governing our state's universities) motions to retire the nickname = authority doesn't work for you. Pick and chose, I get it.

i didn't pick the deadline. it was established almost three years ago in an agreement between und and the ncaa. my position is, and always has been, that und, the sbohe, and any other entity with influence on the matter should give the full alloted time for a decision to be made by both tribes. to do otherwise would be analogous with the electoral college choosing the president before the people even voted.

if i got to pick and choose what worked for my agenda, as stated already, their would be no deadline and the name and logo would stay until one or both of the tribes, of their own free will and not because of pressure by the ncaa or any other organization, held a majoirty vote to retire the name and logo.

now you tell me, mooncountry, since you're so convinced that my position is wholly self-serving, then what happens once the deadline has come and gone? let's assume no vote is held by standing rock and the name is retired. at that time, as i said in my first post in this conversation of which you wandered into the middle, i will drop it because i will consider it a done deal. if that possibilbity becomes a reality, in what way is my position self-serving?

you state that i only support the november deadline because it buys more time for the nickname (a flawed logic since that was always the deadline). so if that date comes and the logo is retired and i speak no more on this board in reference to the topic, then will you admit you were wrong about me? i mean, if things go as i've laid out in this scenario, then somebody who only supports the november deadline because it buys more time would then choose another date in the future to wait for as to continue to buy more time, correct?

i'm all about debate and hearing other sides, otherwise i wouldn't be on a message board. however, i do my best not to assume anything about somebody else or insult another person through name-calling and prejudice. i think i've done a very good job of this and i do so because i don't think it's fair to judge somebody i've never met or even spoken with based on their opinion on a topic that conflicts with my opinion on that topic. it seems, though, that so many others on this board are willing to pass judgement so quickly without anymore knowledge of me then i have of him/her.

i consider my reasoning for supporting the november deadline sound. if it wasn't for the fact that i can claim the higher ground by not resorting to name calling and assumptions of character and motivation, i'd find your assessment of my support of the november deadline insulting.

carry on, though, i can catch your stones all day and night and i promise not to throw them back.

[krangodance]

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

And he knows it too. He's trying to play dumb and type out long posts to avoid the point.

i consider my posts just long enough to address the point, which i feel i've done well and consistently. what point is it you feel i haven't addressed?

[krangodance]

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

And he knows it too. He's trying to play dumb and type out long posts to avoid the point.

this conversation is intriguing to me. i feel as though my position on the matter has been well established, i've been consistent in my logic, and i've been more than forthcoming in addressing all questions presented to me on the topic.

in no way am i trying to avoid any point and i will gladly provide clarification on anything i may have not addressed or on which one believes i was not clear.

as i see it, one of two things is going on here.

1. i am running into a legitimate communication barrier with mplsbison, mooncountry, or anybody else who doesn't see the logic in my position, regardless of whether or not they agree with my logic.

or

2. those posing the questions to which i'm trying my best to answer clearly are simply choosing not to recognize my point of view and, instead, are forcing me to talk in circles in an attempt to discredit my view of the situation.

if the latter is true, then so be it, obviously that scenario leaves no room for me to clarify anything so i see no point in continuing this conversation. however, if the former scenario is true, then i invite anybody to send me a personal message on the matter, including exactly what point(s) you are confused on and i will gladly do my best to clear things up as well as take an objective view of your position.

i have already sent a personal message to mplsbison asking him/her (not meant to be insulting, i just don't know who you are) to clarify what point it is he/she feels i'm trying to avoid addressing here; i haven't heard back from him/her yet.

to save the rest of the readers of this thread the agony of reading my diatribes as i attempt to explain myself, something i only feel necessary for my own entertainment and peace of mind, i will discontinue replying to any posts on the topic left for me on this thread by those who feel i'm not being clear.

if you're one of those individuals who is still not satisfied that i've provided a logical, clear explanation of how i feel and why i feel that way, i will consider any posts left here on the topic nothing more than a passive agressive attempt to continue a debate that you know i've already won, but are not willing to walk away from peacefully.

however, if one of those individuals sends me a personal message on the matter, then i will accept that he/she truly does seek clarification on my position in this matter, or would like to continue a friendly debate on the issue, and i will gladly, and politely, offer a reply.

if you don't care one way or another, i hope you didn't just waste your time reading this whole post.

thanks much

krangodance

bong!!

[GeauxSioux]

this conversation is intriguing to me. i feel as though my position on the matter has been well established, i've been consistent in my logic, and i've been more than forthcoming in addressing all questions presented to me on the topic.

in no way am i trying to avoid any point and i will gladly provide clarification on anything i may have not addressed or on which one believes i was not clear.

as i see it, one of two things is going on here.

1. i am running into a legitimate communication barrier with mplsbison, mooncountry, or anybody else who doesn't see the logic in my position, regardless of whether or not they agree with my logic.

or

2. those posing the questions to which i'm trying my best to answer clearly are simply choosing not to recognize my point of view and, instead, are forcing me to talk in circles in an attempt to discredit my view of the situation.

if the latter is true, then so be it, obviously that scenario leaves no room for me to clarify anything so i see no point in continuing this conversation. however, if the former scenario is true, then i invite anybody to send me a personal message on the matter, including exactly what point(s) you are confused on and i will gladly do my best to clear things up as well as take an objective view of your position.

My vote is for 2. I've been in that situation and see that is where you are.

[Chewey]

Krago,

You are engaging consummate knobs who just stir things up and are probably just anti nickname "plants". My only concern is this: Why are you wasting your time?

[krangodance]

Krago,

You are engaging consummate knobs who just stir things up and are probably just anti nickname "plants". My only concern is this: Why are you wasting your time?

i enjoy healthy debate. my last post was basically to put an end to what might be unhealthy debate and rather give those willing to engage in friendly debate on opportunity to contact me personally knowing i will play ball, provided it's kept positive and worthwhile.

[MplsBison]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/276949/group/Sports/

[Fetch]

I don