NCAA Name Issue

[iramurphy]

[Doc Holliday]

Good point.  But aren't the bowl games considered NCAA sanctioned?  I thought that was why you can't buy/sell alcohol at them?  Maybe you can though at some, I know you can't at the Fiesta Bowl.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can buy beer at the Fiesta Bowl. There was a big controversy regarding it when Ohio State played Miami in the 2003 Fiesta Bowl because it was on campus (Arizona State) and officials were concerned with all the rowdy Buckeye fans heading down. But they were allowed to purchase alcohol.

I can't speak on behalf of all bowls, but I know that you can purchase beer at the Sun Bowl and the Music City Bowl.

I believe a lot of schools have already taken steps. Notice how Illinois basketball doesn't have "Fighting Illini" on their jerseys (they do have some orange throwback uni's that do, but not their regular ones) and their logo is not the traditional "sad Indian" in the circle, but it's block "ILLINOIS" with a round ball behind it.

Personally, I would love to see the Sioux develop playoff jerseys that say "North Dakota's Playoff Jerseys" on the front!

[fightonsioux]

Unfortunately Frank Foughty, the attorney and Native American from Devils Lake and big supporter of the nickname, died last week.

I find it ironic that when you go to www.ncaa.com the top story is about the nickname issue. And then you scroll down to the bottom of the site and there is a NCAA shop where you can buy Sioux jerseys with the Sioux logo. Hypocrisy runs rampant.

[UND92,96]

Don't know if this has been asked yet, but with this stupid ruling, does this mean that UND won't be allowed to host playoff FB games?  I certainly hope not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless schools can successfully challenge this rule through litigation, I'm afraid that's exactly what it means.

The NCAA plans to ban schools using Indian nicknames from hosting postseason events. Harrison said schools with such mascots that have already been selected as tournament sites would be asked to cover any offensive logos.

[Smoggy]

[ethanm]

I want to know what the NCAA is going to determine as offensive.

Will Florida State, that has the blessing of the Seminole tribe, be included in that group or not?

Ugh, this just wrecks my weekend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's the NCAA's stance on FSU.

Florida State, for example, has received permission from the Seminole tribe in Florida to use the nickname. That, however, will not suffice.

"Other Seminole tribes are not supportive," said Charlotte Westerhaus, the NCAA vice president for diversity and inclusion.

[ethanm]

I don't know if someone has brought this up before or not, but I don't get why the NCAA doesn't just eliminate all nicknames based on ethnic groups. Notre Dame would still get to keep their name based on the fact that NC-Pembroke can use the Braves nickname without sanctions based on the school's historically high Indian enrollment. Obviously, the the USA's history is why American Indian nicknames are targeted, but how are the other names any different? I'm sure you can find an Irishman somewhere who doesn't like Notre Dame's nickname.

In case this wasn't already posted, here is a story from Ray Ratto on ESPN.com.

NCAA mascot ban doesn't mean squat

I say we organize a PETA group the next time we play SCSU and protest their use of the Huskies as a mascot. His article did get me thinking. Why doesn't the NCAA go after the use of devil and demon based nicknames? There have to be groups out there who find those names offensive.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Here is a quote:

"The NCAA objects to institutions using racial/ethnic/national origin references in their intercollegiate athletics programs," said NCAA President Myles Brand.

How in the world is this decision limited to Native American nicknames? What about the various other ethnic references such as "Fighting Irish" I am sure there are other countless examples, but you never hear about them. This decision makes no sense. Just another reason I hate the NCAA.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

I don't know if someone has brought this up before or not, but I don't get why the NCAA doesn't just eliminate all nicknames based on ethnic groups.  Notre Dame would still get to keep their name based on the fact that NC-Pembroke can use the Braves nickname without sanctions based on the school's historically high Indian enrollment.  Obviously, the the USA's history is why American Indian nicknames are targeted, but how are the other names any different?  I'm sure you can find an Irishman somewhere who doesn't like Notre Dame's nickname.

In case this wasn't already posted, here is a story from Ray Ratto on ESPN.com.

NCAA mascot ban doesn't mean squat

I say we organize a PETA group the next time we play SCSU and protest their use of the Huskies as a mascot.  His article did get me thinking.  Why doesn't the NCAA go after the use of devil and demon based nicknames?  There have to be groups out there who find those names offensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That article by Ray Ratto hits the nail on the head...how frustrating this "Halfway stance" of the NCAA is.

[star2city]

Though this particular rule may seem a minor inconvenience (wear special tourney uniforms if "Sioux" is deemed offensive), this really could turn into a Gettysburg for the name-change activists.

[star2city]

How does the NCAA define "hostile and abusive"?

It hasn't yet in full detail and, with the help of the courts, this may take years.

Do schools have any recourse?

Yes. They can sue the NCAA individually or file a class-action suit with other schools. However, Gary R. Roberts, director of the sports law program at Tulane, said he didn't think such a challenge had "any serious chance of success." . . . "The long-term effect will probably be the same as a ban on member schools having such symbols and mascots, but at least superficially the decision to abandon such mascots will then be the individual schools', not [from]an NCAA mandate."

Chicago Tribune

[HockeyMom]

I do have some comfort in the thought that we are not alone in this.

[7>4]

Surely the money that has been and will be spent on this issue could be better used to make a real and meaningful difference for American Indians. Imagine the number of schlorships and American Indian programs that could be funded. In my opinion, removing the Sioux logo from all NCAA sanctioned events will do little to improve the lives of those who are supposedly being harmed by use of the name "Fighting Sioux". That will require far more money and effort than holding a couple of rallies outside of sporting events. If the NCAA feels the need to act, how about using some of the millions earned off the sweat of amateur athletes to fund college schlorships for America Indian students?

[SiouxMeNow]

UND needs to approach this from the point of view this school does more to help Native American students fulfill their educational goals than another other institution in the US. (The Med School program just to name one) If pure percentage of enrollment is a factor...programs and opportunities should be an even greater factor!

If the NCAA had any real balls - they should have said "YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR NAME!" but of course they didn't! They took the wimpy PC way out and said..."well, you can have your name but you can't host OUR playoff games or host tournaments...kind of like taking one of the wheels off your car and saying..."what? you still have a car! don't you WANT to race?? "

[UND92,96]

[Let'sGoHawks!]

While most national columnists seem to agree with the absurdity of the NCAA's decision, you just knew that everybody's favorite Fargo Forum [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=99640

[jloos]

From what I can tell the only thing this ruling will do is make the Sioux where the "NORTH DAKOTA" jerseys in post season play. What I found very interesting is it is only in sports after February I guess football teams using these logo's/mascots is ok -it is just the other sports that make it offensive. It looks like the NC$$ is balancing there elitist liberal thinking with there capitalist greedy thinking. What a great organization

[PCM]

We must forgive Mike McFeely. Any journalist true to his principles would understand that Ralph Engelstad supported what is in the best interest of all journalists: freedom of speech.

He would understand that the victory which the NCAA handed name-change proponents represents an erosion of Americans' right to freely express themselves. The NCAA has just caved into the minority of a minority that wishes to control which words and which images the majority can use. Journalists everywhere should be appalled by the NCAA's decision.

McFeely can't see that. As his latest column demonstrates, he's far too wrapped up in his personal dislike of Engelstad and his hatred of UND to pass up an opportunity to engage in the petty vindictiveness that has become a trademark of his writing when discussing any topic related to the Fighting Sioux.

And that's too bad because it would be a refreshing change to see someone like Mike McFeely break from the herd to explain to his readers why the NCAA made a bad decision for the wrong reasons, a decision that will ultimately have no lasting effect, a decision that costs us all a great deal and provides no tangible benefits to American Indians.

But I know that's too much to expect. So I will simply forgive Mike for being too blind and too shallow to see what's in his own best interest, the best interest of his fellow journalists and the public interest he pretends to represent.

Edited August 6, 2005 by PCM

[iramurphy]

We must forgive Mike McFeely. Any journalist true to his principles would understand that Ralph Engelstad supported what is in the best interest of all journalists: freedom of speech.

He would understand that the victory which the NCAA handed name-change proponents represents an erosion of Americans' right to freely express themselves. The NCAA has just caved into the minority of a minority that wishes to control which words and which images the majority can use. Journalists everywhere should be appalled by the NCAA's decision.

McFeely can't see that. As his latest column demonstrates, he's far too wrapped up in his personal dislike of Engelstad and his hatred of UND to pass up an opportunity to engage in the petty vindictiveness that has become a trademark of his writing when discussing any topic related to the Fighting Sioux.

And that's too bad because it would be a refreshing change to see someone like Mike McFeely break from the herd to explain to his readers why the NCAA made a bad decision for the wrong reasons, a decision that will ultimately have no lasting effect, a decision that costs us all a great deal and provides no tangible benefits to American Indians.

But I know that's too much to expect. So I will simply forgive Mike for being too blind and too shallow to see what's in his own best interest, the best interest of his fellow journalists and the public interest he pretends to represent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well written. The other thing I noticed about McFly was that he seems to turn rumors about how Ralph dealt with the issue and how UND has dealt with the issue into accepted facts. He refers to Ralph's "lackeys" yet if he isn't a lackey for our friends from the AC there is no such thing. It is hard for him to see the facts when he has his nose that far up the bison backsides.

[bisonguy]

Well written. The other thing I noticed about McFly was that he seems to turn rumors about how Ralph dealt with the issue and how UND has dealt with the issue into accepted facts. He refers to Ralph's "lackeys" yet if he isn't a lackey for our friends from the AC there is no such thing. It is hard for him to see the facts when he has his nose that far up the bison backsides.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you read any of McFeely's columns about NDSU athletics? He's typically very critical of NDSU, and is about as far away from having his nose up the Bison backsides as one can be.

btw- He is a MSU-Moorhead alum.

He's paid to be controversial and get people talking. He's obviously earning his paycheck with this column.

[star2city]

     

Have you read any of McFeely's columns about NDSU athletics? He's typically very critical of NDSU, and is about as far away from having his nose up the Bison backsides as one can be.

btw- He is a MSU-Moorhead alum.

He's paid to be controversial and get people talking. He's obviously earning his paycheck with this column.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bisonguy,

So how do you feel about the NCAA rules? By your previous postings on other forums (I believe), you've been highly critical of the Sioux nickname.

[farce poobah]

I am mad as hell, with the same reasons that PCM and others have passionately and clearly stated.

I am pondering two more questions this morning:

1) Is there a snowball's chance in he$$ of winning this particular battle?

The answer to this seems clear. The NC$$ has an agenda, and they WILL impose it on everyone. They will arm-twist the Ice Hockey committee, the D2 football and basketball committees, and everyone they can think of.

What this means is that an NC$$ playoff game WILL NOT be played with UND as host, until we change the nickname. That's a significant competitive disadvantage, especially for a school with ongoing annual national title hopes. (Of course if UND moved to D-1 then it would only hurt a couple sports.)

It's at least conceivable to change the nickname for everything BUT hockey. ... keep the Fighting Sioux nickname for hockey, but change everything else to Rough Riders or whatever. That way, basketball, football, swimming, baseball, could host (maybe?).

It's at least conceivable that they carve out an exception for schools with strong American Indian programs and who provide sufficient public education programs (how about an exhibit on Lakota and Chippewa culture in the Betty during next spring's ice hockey regionals? ... other than scoring political points, it would indeed be cool to see UND step up and use the nickname as a platform for educating the white people in the area about Native American culture ...)

But ultimately, it seems unlikely the NC$$ will listen to any kind of reason, rationale, or apply any fairness whatsoever. They've got an agenda, and anyone who disagrees can just go to he!!.

2) What will the NC$$ do NEXT YEAR to further impose their agenda?

Why stop at a ban on hosting? This seems pretty clearly an intermediate step, a big shot across the bow. But the big punishment is yet to come, in my opinion.

Clearly, their next step will be to ban teams with American Indian nicknames from ANY postseason participation.

Past that, instead of or in addition to, it will be to bar conferences with a member school using an American Indian nickname from getting autobids.

The NC$$ doesn't have to flat out ban nicknames to get what they want. If they are bound and determined to force change, they'll get it.

=========================

Don't get me wrong, I would rather keep the Fighting Sioux nickname than change. But UND Athletics is now at a competitive disadvantage, and I dislike that worse...

[mikejm]

I am saddened by the NCAA's nickname/mascot ruling, but for a different reason than what's been posted heretofore. You see, I am burdened, and have been humiliated for all of my life, by the mere fact that I am both of Irish descent, and the son of a Nebraskan.

With the ubiquity of college sports on television, radio and in print media, I seldom go a day without being confronted

[Diggler]

Maybe I'm naive and overly optomistic, but I really don't think this is going to last very long. The NCAA passed this law as more of a political statement then anything else. I really don't believe that they will enforce it as it currently stands. Things will change about it. Much like when the NC$$ passed that rule about no tournament autobids going to conferences with schools that aren't full time DI, somehow UND will be grandfathered in or something. Eventually the rule will become no school can change their name to an Indian nickname and host tournaments. The same thing with uniforms. Any uniform currently worn can continue to be worn, but no new uniforms may be worn that contain an Indian nickname during NCAA events.

Another reason why this won't stand is because eventually, DI football will pull it's head out of it's butt and have a playoff. There is no way in hell Florida State will allow themselves to be pushed around by this law when it comes to football. None. Heck they won't allow themselves to be pushed around when it comes to baseball Regionals and Super Regionals. Same thing goes for Illinois.

As I said, the NCAA did this for a political statement. They don't want to go through the hassle of fighting with memeber schools over this. I highly doubt the NCAA has the resolve the FSU, UND, IU, Catawba, etc. have about this. They just want to enforce their will on others without having to fight about it. Should, I mean when a fight over this occurs, the NCAA will fold. As I said though, maybe I'm just naive.

[bisonguy]