PCM Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Why do they do many things and then backtrack on their stance? They are the NCAA and a bunch of morons. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree, that could happen, but only because the NCAA is faced with enormous political and public pressure to back off. Brand and Harrison aren't going to wake up tomorrow and say, "Gee, what were we thinking? We can't do that! It's censorship!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Maybe because Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But if the NCAA's new policy is to taken seriously, it should enforce the policy based on what it says it applies to, which is: "Colleges and universities may adopt any mascot that they wish, as that is an institutional matter," said Walter Harrison, chair of the Executive Committee and president at the University of Hartford. "But as a national association, we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at the championship events that we control." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I agree, that could happen, but only because the NCAA is faced with enormous political and public pressure to back off. Brand and Harrison aren't going to wake up tomorrow and say, "Gee, what were we thinking? We can't do that! It's censorship!" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Which is why you are right about contacting Congressmen and such. Now if only I didn't have a job and actually had time to craft an articulate yet verbose letter on the virtues of the name. Hey wait! I don't have a job and I do have time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCWaters Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 But if the NCAA's new policy is to taken seriously, it should enforce the policy based on what it says it applies to, which is: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Letting Notre Dame keep its nickname is consistent with letting the NC school founded by Native Americans keep theirs.....the NCAA apparantly sees a difference between members of a group and nonmembers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCWaters Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Why do they do many things and then backtrack on their stance? They are the NCAA and a bunch of morons. Really? As far as the nickname, look at the fourth paragraph. Again, why is Fighting Irish different from Fighting Sioux? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Interesting...lot of "ifs" in that story, but IF it's true you might have a point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Letting Notre Dame keep its nickname is consistent with letting the NC school founded by Native Americans keep theirs.....the NCAA apparantly sees a difference between members of a group and nonmembers... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The NCAA's reasoning behind letting North Carolina-Pembrooke keep its American Indian name is because 21 percent of the school's enrollment is American Indian and apparently supports it. I wonder what percentage of Notre Dame's enrollment is Irish Catholic. And how does the NCAA policy square with allowing San Diego State to remain the Aztecs? SDS assistant vice president Jack Beresford was quoted in a news article saying: "I can't really speak to why they took the action they did. ... Our position is twofold. Aztecs are not a Native American culture; they were based in Mexico, and a lot of these issues are related more to Native Americans," Beresford said. "Another factor is that we did conduct an exhaustive review with a variety of sources including experts on Aztec culture, and that's what we used to formulate a new mascot and logo." The NCAA says its policy is not aimed strictly at schools with American Indian monikers, but then targets only certain schools with American Indian monikers, providing no reasoning as to why Notre Dame and San Diego State are excluded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyMom Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Ok, I need to clarify my statement, I don't expect 17 schools to sit back and watch FSU take on the NCAA by itself. 18 (and whoever else decides the NCAA is wrong) schools standing up against the NCAA is much more powerful than just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCWaters Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 The NCAA's reasoning behind letting North Carolina-Pembrooke keep its American Indian name is because 21 percent of the school's enrollment is American Indian and apparently supports it. I wonder what percentage of Notre Dame's enrollment is Irish Catholic. And how does the NCAA policy square with allowing San Diego State to remain the Aztecs? SDS assistant vice president Jack Beresford was quoted in a news article saying: The NCAA says its policy is not aimed strictly at schools with American Indian monikers, but then targets only certain schools with American Indian monikers, providing no reasoning as to why Notre Dame and San Diego State are excluded. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So if there were no living Lakota/Dakota/Nakota tribes, then the Sioux name would be ok? By the logic you are using, if we murder all Native Americans, then it's ok for us to have Indian nicknames because they are no longer a living people. Notre Dame keeping it's nickname is not consistant with Penbrooke being allowed to keep their name. Notre Dame was not founded by the Irish. I mean just think about it, the schools is called Notre Dame. The Notre Dame Cathedral is in Paris. Notre Dame is French for Our Lady. Why in the would the Irish found a school and name it this? Wouldn't they have simply named it Our Lady University or Mary University? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyMom Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's like letting one of your children do something and prohibiting the rest of them from doing it, it's bad parenting. The NCAA can kiss my butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In other words, if Europeans were successful in wiping out an entire tribe and its civilization, it's okay for a university today to appropriate the tribe's name, symbols and culture. That's a great message to send. And what of Mexican-Americans who are descendents of the Aztecs? Are we to assume that all of them have no problem with the way San Diego State uses the Aztec name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So what you're saying is that the NCAA is ok with "insulting" the dead or extinct? So if a team were called the Natchez, the Yahi, the Timucua, etc. the NCAA would grant them an exemption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 If it's going to take years of court hearings before the NCAA's definition of hostile and abusive is set in stone (I read that in a Q & A in one of the posted newspaper articles), why not get an injunction against the ruling until that's done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 So what you're saying is that the NCAA is ok with "insulting" the dead or extinct? So if a team were called the Natchez, the Yahi, the Timucua, etc. the NCAA would grant them an exemption? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, I take it back. The idea of the University of North Dakota calling their athletic teams the Natchez would make as much sense as the University of Notre Dame calling their teams the Fighting Irish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethanm Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Letting Notre Dame keep its nickname is consistent with letting the NC school founded by Native Americans keep theirs.....the NCAA apparantly sees a difference between members of a group and nonmembers... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> While Notre Dame and NC-Pembroke might be similar, my big problem is that the NCAA's ruling didn't include non-Indian names. Could it be that the NCAA didn't want to tick off Notre Dame and its (wealthy) alumni? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCWaters Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 While Notre Dame and NC-Pembroke might be similar, my big problem is that the NCAA's ruling didn't include non-Indian names. Could it be that the NCAA didn't want to tick off Notre Dame and its (wealthy) alumni? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Possibly...another thing to consider, though, is how many protests there have been in the last ten years about non-NA names....agree with them or not, the NA name protests have been the loudest....in fact, I don't remember any other protests, other than some made in jest...anyone else remember any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 No one does seem to protest anything other than Native American names. I don't really understand it either. I can see Native Americans not protesting say Notre Dame, but why don't the non-Native Americans protest these names? They protest Indian Nicknames, why not other nicknames also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCWaters Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 No one does seem to protest anything other than Native American names. I don't really understand it either. I can see Native Americans not protesting say Notre Dame, but why don't the non-Native Americans protest these names? They protest Indian Nicknames, why not other nicknames also? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good point...One other question: people keep talking about lawsuits, but how realistic is that? Joining the NCAA is not requied, it's voluntary, and it's self-run--the university presidents and chancellors make the rules through elected (I believe) committeess...the championships are NCAA championships, put on by the NCAA, and run by their rules. If you voluntarily submit to being in an organization, have your representatives running it, what realistic chance do you have in suing if they do something you don't like? It's hard for me to see a lawsuit being successful, but stanger things have certainly happened (someone earlier mentioned the McDonald's coffee case). It might be more fruitful to challange the NCAA on the basis of it being a monopoly, at least in effect if not in reality (i.e., while there is an alternative, it really isn't much of one)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmrg74 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Letting Notre Dame keep its nickname is consistent with letting the NC school founded by Native Americans keep theirs.....the NCAA apparantly sees a difference between members of a group and nonmembers... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The NC$$ is using race-based criteria to sanction certain members, as well as using unstated criteria in "abusive" or "hostile" to make its determinations. That is illegal, especially since the NC$$ is not a "state actor", e.g., governmental agency affecting a race-based preference program. If the NC$$'s policy is to stand muster, it must hold the same criteria for all schools, and I do not believe Notre Dame or Penn were required to submit those self-reports. The NC$$ has decided to selectively enforce new rules on existing members, while effectively "hiding the ball" from members selected for sanctions to create a race-based double standard. Affected schools should be able to easily argue that the new rules are arbitrary and capricious, and based on race. If the Notre Dame is allowed to maintain its "Fighting Irish" name and logo, UND, FSU, Illinois, etc. should be able to maintain their names/logos throughout the entire season, post-season, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 The amazing thing to me in all of this is the way the "liberal" media is reacting. The majority of it is bashing the NCAA over this. Heck, it was even on one of the big news channels. I think it was Fox. They had a panel and just ripped apart the poor lady that was trying to defend this stance by the NCAA. There needs to be a class action lawsuit against the NCAA for discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 The amazing thing to me in all of this is the way the "liberal" media is reacting. The majority of it is bashing the NCAA over this. Heck, it was even on one of the big news channels. I think it was Fox. They had a panel and just ripped apart the poor lady that was trying to defend this stance by the NCAA. There needs to be a class action lawsuit against the NCAA for discrimination. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why are you surprised? This is a 1st Amendment issue. I'm surprised we haven't heard the ACLU defending the schools right to use what ever names they choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaNorthStar Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Article I read said its because there is no living Aztec tribe... <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Ummm...There's no living Illini either, IIRC.... Mexico is in America...The Aztec were an American tribe, like it or not.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mksioux Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 This was a HUGE victory for the Cultural Marxists. I don't see any silver linings in this decision. Whoever thinks the NCAA is not going to enforce this decision is just engaging in wishful thinking. I don't have any faith in the liberal courts to do anything about the NCAA's social engineering. And I don't expect Florida State to come to our rescue. Florida State is not nearly as affected by this as UND. It's main team (football) is exempt because DIA does not have a postseason tournament. It's basketball team is only marginally affected (it's uniforms) because DI basketball uses neutral sites in the tournament. On the other hand, UND's main sports are all affected in a way that puts the teams at a competitive disadvantage. As for help from the politicians, I just don't see enough outrage out there for enough Congressmen to get involved to have any impact. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt I am. This puts UND in a situation where it has to assess whether the nickname is worth the competitive disadvantage it causes its teams. This is exactly what the NCAA intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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