UND moving up?

[Hansel]

Alright- I don't want to start a flame war but I was reading an article by Kolpack in the forum and halfway through he went on a tangent

First thing, let's cut to the opinion: The University of North Dakota will move up to NCAA Division I-AA in football and Division I in all other sports.

It might not happen next year or the year after or five years from now. But it will happen. To think otherwise -- considering the continued deterioration of Division II and the North Central Conference, and a possible shakeup in the NCAA and the fact that archrival North Dakota State has already made the jump and a dozen other factors -- is to live in denial.

Love or despise the Bison and the move they've made, those are the facts that time will reveal.

Just remember where you read it first.

Now the sticky part and, admittedly, it's as gooey as a wad of chewed Bubble Yum.

Nobody at the university will admit it. At least not on the record, to be quoted for publication.

So as the Sioux football team, top-rated in the national Division II poll, prepares to open its season Saturday against Delta State (Miss.), the company line is still in effect in Grand Forks. The Sioux are not budging from their stance that Division II is where they belong.

The school is, however, "monitoring," "keeping an eye on the landscape," "researching," "forecasting" and doing lots of other things that end in "-ing," according to athletic director Roger Thomas.

"We are monitoring while we are doing things to build programs, improve our staffing structure, upgrade our facilities and strengthen our budget," Thomas said.

"So if we do decide to make that decision, the leap would be a short one."

That sounds an awful lot like an athletic department positioning itself for a move. Until Thomas adds: "But there are no guarantees we'll make that decision."

Mostly, it seems, UND is controlling the things it can control -- budgets, facilities, staffing -- while waiting to see how things shake out with the Bison, fellow D-I newbie South Dakota State and the NCAA.

If the Sioux are feeling out the Big Sky Conference -- which has invited inquiries from interested schools -- they are not saying. Although that would seem to be a very logical thing to do. A very, very logical thing.

"We are watching to see if the environment is changing and if it is changing, how it is changing," said Phil Harmeson, UND's senior associate to President Charles Kupchella. "That is what we've said we'd do all along."

The intriguing thing about UND is trying to figure out what coaches and muckety-mucks actually subscribe to the company line and which are, heretically, on the pro D-I side of the fence. Because even though the school has tried to present a united front to the public, there are those who believe the Sioux should move up. (Hint: those very interested in football.)

Same with fans and boosters.

"Everybody here has an opinion, pro and con. Everybody has a point of view and that's part of the mix," Thomas said. "I get phone calls and e-mails every day from people saying, 'Why aren't we moving up?' and I get the same from people saying, 'Stay where we are.'"

Even Harmeson tossed out a nugget on which Sioux and Bison fans could chew.

"What we really need is 4,000 more seats at the Alerus Center. That would put us over the 15,000-seat mark, which is the threshold for Division I-A (for football)," Harmeson said. "If you're going to make a move, maybe you want to make a big move. Why not really move up to Division I football?"

Um

[UND92,96]

It appears that the portion of the Forum article in question was actually a McFeely column. I'm not sure why the Forum printed it in such a way that it appears to all have been written by Kolpack, with a strange jump from an article on which NDSU players may come back for a 6th year to an opinion piece on UND. Look at the very bottom of the article/column and both Kolpack's and McFeely's names appear.

[The Sicatoka]

I agree with what was in The Forum.

(turns on shower and begins soaping madly)

[ScottM]

As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with what Kolpack and even McFeely write. A number of things, including UND's ego, will force a move to D1 in the future, including pressure from the NC$$ to squeeze out larger D2 schools. I especially agree with the statement about SDSU.

Excuse me, I have to wash my hands in boric acid ...

[Let'sGoHawks!]

I agree that UND is playing the wait and see game. Why not wait a year or 5 years to see how NDSU and SDSU handle the move up, and learn from their mistakes. We will be DI eventually, we have some of the best facilities of any school in the nation, any division. I am excited for the future.

[Cratter]

UND is doing the smart thing and preparing itself before moving. Carr Report said conference affiliation was EVERYTHING. New football stadium: Check. New basketball & volleyball arena: Check. When UND decides to move conferences will be lining up.

[jimdahl]

First thing, let's cut to the opinion: The University of North Dakota will move up to NCAA Division I-AA in football and Division I in all other sports.

It might not happen next year or the year after or five years from now. But it will happen. To think otherwise -- considering the continued deterioration of Division II and the North Central Conference, and a possible shakeup in the NCAA and the fact that archrival North Dakota State has already made the jump and a dozen other factors -- is to live in denial.

...

Just remember where you read it first.

I know where I read it first... we've all been predicting it here all along. That UND won't tolerate being in a lower division from NDSU in the long run is so obvious it's barely conversation worthy.

[ScottM]

Just remember where you read it first.

I know where I read it first... we've all been predicting it here all along. That UND won't tolerate being in a lower division from NDSU in the long run is so obvious it's barely conversation worthy.

[DamStrait]

I know where I read it first... we've all been predicting it here all along. That UND won't tolerate being in a lower division from NDSU in the long run is so obvious it's barely conversation worthy.

Bingo, Jim - you hit the nail squarely on its head. This is just the latest chapter in the continuing saga of UND-GF and NDSU-Fargo pissing all over the other. If it weren't so damn sad it might even be funny.

[IowaBison]

UND is doing the smart thing and preparing itself before moving.  Carr Report said conference affiliation was EVERYTHING.  New football stadium: Check.  New basketball & volleyball arena: Check.  When UND decides to move conferences will be lining up.   

and just what conference might that be?

the best time for UND to move up would be sooner rather than later

your facilities are only going to get older and your reputation diminished by staying D2

[star2city]

Can't resist responding:

The NDSU/SDSU partnership has always had some fundamental flaws: (1) SDSU’s long-term goal has always been membership in the Missouri Valley Conference, while NDSU wants emphasis on its football program and competition with Montana schools. Those long-term goals do not mesh well. For SDSU, the Mid-Con is viewed as a stepping stone to the MO Valley. For NDSU, the Mid-Con is an anathema to its long-term goals. (2) Because NDSU/SDSU probation ends at the same time, simultaneous conference affililiation for both schools in the same conference is never going to happen before 2008, the year their probation periods end. The MidCon may very well offer one school a bid before 2008, and that would be SDSU. SDSU would accept immediately.

So in 2008, the Big Sky is now ready to take in non-probationary NDSU, but there is no “available” travel partner. Who would the Big Sky approach that has world-class facilities and a athletics budget that exceeds most existing Big Sky schools? Mayville St? I’m sure Denver, Big Sky member since 2005, will be pulling for their hockey rival. Since this would be the only opportunity for UND to move to the Big Sky without being blackballed by NDSU, UND would likely accept as it would then be possible that UND could get into a D-I conference without paying the high cost of four years probation and no conference affiliation. Considering that extra D-I cost will be $1.5 million per year and revenue lost with no conference would be $0.5 to 1.0 million, its conceiveable that fate will allow UND to move immediately into a Div I conference without paying the nearly $10 million penalty of being a D-I independent for four years. Ten million would seem about the right amount to build a nice facility for indoor track and football training. Patience pays off! If this scenario ever plays out, I would hope the NCC would still be in a good position with new members or alternatively, that it could merge with the MIAA.

[IowaBison]

those are some interesting thoughts s2c

first paragraph is fundamentally sound

the second one, you're definitely off your nut

Denver will not be joining the Big Sky, I do enjoy your persistence with this conspiracy theory

The travel partner is not a big argument with them either, half their members don't have anything close to what could be called a traveling partner

Depending on much bigger picture changes that might occur in the NCAA in the next ten years, it is entirely possibly that the Big Sky will take football DI and UND doesn't have a facility that meets either minimum number needs nor generates the revenue to support an athletic dept.

[DamStrait]

...nor generates the revenue to support an athletic dept.

And 'SU does?

[jackrabbit1979]

I always enjoy reading your posts Star 2 City, its like a good fiction book you just cant beat it.

[IowaBison]

i think we're right on target for having funding to be competitive immediately in the Big Sky

but yes, we definitely need to win and nurture our alumni for donations to go in that direction

[star2city]

those are some interesting thoughts s2c

first paragraph is fundamentally sound

the second one, you're definitely off your nut

Wow, collectively, that may have been the most complimentary words ever on my postings by an NDSU fan.

[IowaBison]

your welcome

[star2city]

I always enjoy reading your posts Star 2 City, its like a good fiction book you just cant beat it. 

For the jack and bisson faithful, the postings are geared to the horror genre.

P. S. I forgot to mention that with Montana State, Montana, Weber State all looking to add hockey and Northern Arizona restarting their program, Denver and UND would be natural selections. Talk about a horror scenario for the Bison and Jacks.

[IowaBison]

is it a little early to start drinking...

....even for a friday....

.....even for a sue fan....

[dakotadan]

I definately see UND moving up to I-aa. It is just a little matter of our president. Kupchella is the one that is absolutely against it. He has had a bad experience before with division changes. It is simply a matter of how long kupchella stays here or the alumni finally get to him enough, whatever comes first. It will happen, it is just a matter of when.

[star2city]

dakotaboy:

I take another view on that. Kupchella is certainly against pouring money into Div-I if there are no paybacks. Look at SE Missouri St, where he was at earlier. They moved to Div-I underfunded and have been floundering in the relatively weak Ohio Valley Conference ever since. It can be argued that the Div I move, at significant fiscal cost, has bought SE Mo St negative publicity as a ‘loser’ U, with few positives. (Now SW Mo St, that’s another story.) If the athletic department, Engelstad Arena, and alumni can show that D-I athletics will be fiscally responsible, competitive in a conference, and a positive for UND, Kupchella would give it a green light. The NCAA rule changing probation from 13 years to 5 years (with a conference) has had to have had an impact on softening UND’s position.

Kupchella gets a lot of flack from alumni and students because of his inability to socialize in large group settings and play to the crowd. But as an administrator, IMO Kupchella knows how to surround himself with competent people and has been a leader to address, arguably, UND’s greatest deficiency: the retention and compensation of its professors. Baker, for all his popularity with the students, and Clifford, even with his tremendous capability to engage and energize people, had blind spots in their leadership traits. With Kupchella, his weaknesses are blatantly obvious and his strengths much less so. At this point in its history, UND needs are more administrative, as the vision and momentum in many areas are much more readily apparent than ten or twenty years ago.

[dakotadan]

Star2City,

I can't decide if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. You said exactly what I was getting at only with ALOT more words. I believe it is only a matter of time before UND moves up. Like I said, it is Kupchella that is against the move, that has always been very public that he is the one against it at this time. However, if alumni, fans, etc. can get to him and convince him, it could happen while he is still here. All I was pointing out is that the biggest question is when it will happen. I was not saying anything bad about Kupchella.

[Bisonfan1234]

P. S. I forgot to mention that with Montana State, Montana, Weber State all looking to add hockey and Northern Arizona restarting their program, Denver and UND would be natural selections. Talk about a horror scenario for the Bison and Jacks.

The problem with this idea is simple: the Big Sky has "core" sports that it requires.

Every school in that conference must have those sports. Any other sports are extra.

So, to start a hockey program (one on level with UND) would cost many millions and probably generate very low interest as no one cares about hockey at those schools. In fact, I wonder if people at UND care about hockey because they like hockey or simply because UND has one of the best teams in the nation. Sort of like asking if supply can create demand.

[jimdahl]

In fact, I wonder if people at UND care about hockey because they like hockey or simply because UND has one of the best teams in the nation. Sort of like asking if supply can create demand.

There's no doubt that supply creates demand. You see it in all spectator sports -- when teams do better, they sell more tickets.

Of course, to even have the potential to draw large crowds, the sport has to be in the small core set that are "fan-friendly" (e.g. football, basketball, volleyball, hockey, lacrosse come to mind). UND is far more dominant in swimming than hockey, yet it doesn't draw the crowds.

[Bisonfan1234]

Another interesting thing, UND has a lot more sports that aren't core sports of the Big Sky (assuming that's where the non-hockey sports want to end up). Would they be cut to save money?

NDSU and UND both have men's golf which could be cut. Neither have men's tennis which would need to be added. NDSU doesn't have women's tennis. UND has both men's and women's swimming and hockey. Obviously hockey will stay but swimming could go. Both have baseball and softball which could possibly stay, but would have to be independants.