Two Tier System for ND Hockey

[scpa0305]

2 hours ago, Walsh Hall said:

If the issue that needs to be solved is lack of competition for the very top kids, this seems to be the most logical answer.  They play better competition, and the remaining teams have more parity.

Bingo.  Problem is, current setup requires them to leave home.  Which is nuts considering they can field one team and complete with top MN and Canadians teams.  They do it at the bantam level.  Many of kids all went you central and you saw no one could remotely compete with them.

[Wilbur]

On 3/12/2019 at 12:14 PM, Yote 53 said:

Are there any updates on that potential MJHL team in Grand Forks?  Interested to see if that develops.

Not that I have seen.  Last story I saw was from like November I believe.

Not sure if the purpose was to create an all star team of mainly GF or area kids, but you would assume that had to be discussed.  

[Yote 53]

8 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Not that I have seen.  Last story I saw was from like November I believe.

Not sure if the purpose was to create an all star team of mainly GF or area kids, but you would assume that had to be discussed.  

I don't think so, not if the franchise is serious about being successful and wants to last long term.  Sure, there would be some GF players on the team, but the best players in GF are better than MJ material , they are USHL and NAHL material.  If the franchise wants to survive long term they would take the best players they could recruit from their recruiting area of ND, SD, MN, etc.

[Ozzie82]

23 hours ago, yzerman19 said:

Edina is comparable in size to GF...only one high school in Edina .  Could a single high school team from GF compete and potentially win AA?  I think so depending on the year.  

How many D1 players come out of GF each year? 

[ksixpack]

On 3/14/2019 at 4:43 PM, yzerman19 said:

Edina is comparable in size to GF...only one high school in Edina .  Could a single high school team from GF compete and potentially win AA?  I think so depending on the year.  

GF Aviators have been a top 3 MNAA Bantam team the last 3 years; no MN AA program can make that claim.  The Aviators have played 18 home games the past two years vs MN AA programs and their record in those 18 games is 17-1.  Those 17 wins have come against

Edina-3 (6-5, 6-3, 4-0), 

Roseau-3 (3-2, 3-2, 5-3),

Rosemount-3 (6-0, 6-4, 1-0), 

 Moorhead-2 (5-2, 10-1), 

 Lakeville North-2 (4-1, 7-2), 

Prior Lake (4-2),

Minnetonka (6-4),

Duluth East (6-3), 

Grand Rapids (8-4; lone loss to GR 4-8)

Thise teams listed are the blue bloods of MN AA hockey.  To answer your question, yes GF would and does compete extremely well at MN Bantam AA and could win a title if allowed to compete...no reason to think they wouldn’t at high school as well...it would be the same kids competing against each other.

[ksixpack]

On 3/14/2019 at 1:26 PM, OgieOgilthorpe said:

I meant RR and GFC being more balanced instead of having 1 all-star team. I don't think adding another team or skimming off the top talent to play midgets is a good idea at all. I think once the GF teams get balanced, then 4-5 other teams will be in the mix every year instead of it just being one all-star GF team then everyone else 2 steps behind. There will always be a few kids here and there that'll leave early for no-brainer opportunities but I see no reason for a lot of these Grand Forks and Fargo kids to leave to join some Tier 1 team. They have plenty of competition in ND once the GF schools get balanced out, and creating a Tier 1 team would most likely overcompensate. 

Teams for the most part have been balanced.  When RR won it Central only had 3 losses and the 2 to RR were slim and RR was a senior dominated team. Centrals title the following year they were a senior dominated team as well. This year it appeared Central was a super team and it was not balanced in GF but plug in these 4 kids that left RR for greener pastures...Kunz, Dane Montgomery, Zaradka, and Helgeson and I believe it woukd have appeared to be a lot more balanced....that was potentially 100 more goals for RR’s team this year.  This year’s Aviator team is split about 50/50 between Central and RR.  This super team talk and kids joining each other at one school or another is a bunch of bull.

[ksixpack]

For those of you against the two tier system, think about this.  Look at the teams the Aviators play.  They are the best of the best in MN AA and Manitoba.  Look at the list of teams suggested for tier 2; a lot of those towns play youth hockey at the B1 level tops. You would never schedule the Aviators to play a B1 team, yet when these players get to high school they will.  Why?

[90siouxfan]

1 hour ago, ksixpack said:

Teams for the most part have been balanced.  When RR won it Central only had 3 losses and the 2 to RR were slim and RR was a senior dominated team. Centrals title the following year they were a senior dominated team as well. This year it appeared Central was a super team and it was not balanced in GF but plug in these 4 kids that left RR for greener pastures...Kunz, Dane Montgomery, Zaradka, and Helgeson and I believe it woukd have appeared to be a lot more balanced....that was potentially 100 more goals for RR’s team this year.  This year’s Aviator team is split about 50/50 between Central and RR.  This super team talk and kids joining each other at one school or another is a bunch of bull.

Is the bantam level dividing teams by school districts?  Are you making the assumption that this 50/50 split is a done deal for the next season at the varsity level.  As far as a super team, from my perspective which is a long way from then inner working of GF, I am not implying a concerted effort to build a state championship team for each year, it is not like the Bismarck girls cabal.  But GF is the dominant force in ND HS hockey, if I had KEM money, would a private school, invite only, competing in MN HS level, that puts the best GF players at a higher level, be good for ND hockey.  My thinking is Central & Red River would still have teams, the field would have a bit more parity.....   

[ksixpack]

9 minutes ago, 90siouxfan said:

Is the bantam level dividing teams by school districts?  Are you making the assumption that this 50/50 split is a done deal for the next season at the varsity level.  As far as a super team, from my perspective which is a long way from then inner working of GF, I am not implying a concerted effort to build a state championship team for each year, it is not like the Bismarck girls cabal.  But GF is the dominant force in ND HS hockey, if I had KEM money, would a private school, invite only, competing in MN HS level, that puts the best GF players at a higher level, be good for ND hockey.  My thinking is Central & Red River would still have teams, the field would have a bit more parity.....   

No...top kids (16-17) make AA, next 32 split equally in 2 A teams and rest split into B1 and B teams.  School district has nothing to do with it...I am not sure it does in any N.D. town.  Couldn’t if you wanted to in GF...90% of the hockey playing kids in GF are in RR district.  Boundary’s are screwed up in GF but that is a whole other topic.  Takes $ to play hockey and the RR district is where most of the upper middle class lives.  50/50 split in this Aviator team is just the way it worked out...contrary to popular belief, the school these kids will go to/are going to (most are 9th graders in high school already) was determined many years ago by their parents and not after the season in a smoke filled room.

[ksixpack]

32 minutes ago, 90siouxfan said:

Is the bantam level dividing teams by school districts?  Are you making the assumption that this 50/50 split is a done deal for the next season at the varsity level.  As far as a super team, from my perspective which is a long way from then inner working of GF, I am not implying a concerted effort to build a state championship team for each year, it is not like the Bismarck girls cabal.  But GF is the dominant force in ND HS hockey, if I had KEM money, would a private school, invite only, competing in MN HS level, that puts the best GF players at a higher level, be good for ND hockey.  My thinking is Central & Red River would still have teams, the field would have a bit more parity.....   

It would be interesting if Sacred Heart in EGF would ever explore putting together a AA high school hockey team in MN.  I don’t think that would ever be an ambition for them but would be interesting if it was.

[PuckLuck]

Even if we don't switch to a two tier system, would you agree the scheduling format should be addressed? I think it makes more sense for ND to have an independent schedule than it does MN. The problem gets to be the 21 game allotment only leaves 3 games for non EDC teams.  Throw in a holiday tournament and the schedule is done. Teams are forced to play lopsided games. Why not have an independant schedule and let teams find the best competition for their team. This is also a struggle that MayPort is having. They can't get games against ND teams. Schedules are full right off the bat. Maybe Wahpeton would consider coming back in this scenario also. Maybe Langon would consider, who knows.

[ksixpack]

5 hours ago, PuckLuck said:

Even if we don't switch to a two tier system, would you agree the scheduling format should be addressed? I think it makes more sense for ND to have an independent schedule than it does MN. The problem gets to be the 21 game allotment only leaves 3 games for non EDC teams.  Throw in a holiday tournament and the schedule is done. Teams are forced to play lopsided games. Why not have an independant schedule and let teams find the best competition for their team. This is also a struggle that MayPort is having. They can't get games against ND teams. Schedules are full right off the bat. Maybe Wahpeton would consider coming back in this scenario also. Maybe Langon would consider, who knows.

That may work too without going to two tiers.  All teams play an independent schedule without the lopsided games built in to a league schedule and have the freedom to schedule against like teams in MN and ND.  Seed for regional games to get to state like they do for sections in MN.  Take the league structure completely out of it.  Makes sense to me.

[90siouxfan]

On 3/17/2019 at 12:15 PM, ksixpack said:

It would be interesting if Sacred Heart in EGF would ever explore putting together a AA high school hockey team in MN.  I don’t think that would ever be an ambition for them but would be interesting if it was.

that is what I was thinking, a way for the top talent, which is mostly GF kids to stay at home but play a level higher than ND HS...  hoping the removal of the top cream in GF would bring more parity.  Right now 3rd or 4th seed from the west run into a buzz saw.  Granted to be the best you have to be the best.  You want to play against competition slightly better than you to improve your play.  A thumping discourages the lesser team and can build bad habits in the better team.

[Ozzie82]

On 3/17/2019 at 11:10 AM, ksixpack said:

Thise teams listed are the blue bloods of MN AA hockey.  To answer your question, yes GF would and does compete extremely well at MN Bantam AA and could win a title if allowed to compete...no reason to think they wouldn’t at high school as well...it would be the same kids competing against each other.

It's possible that they could win a title, but your example isn't an apples to apples comparison. Many of the D1 caliber studs at the Bantam AA level in MN have already moved on to their high school teams. Still, that's a very impressive Bantam record, and I'd love to see them play top level competition in MN at the high school level to see what happens. It would be fun to watch. I saw an GF Herald article that quotes Tarek Howard... he thinks if GF had one high school team they'd compete with Edina and Morehead. I wish we could see it!

[90siouxfan]

How does wahpeton get to compete in MN?

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, 90siouxfan said:

How does wahpeton get to compete in MN?

They co-op with Breckinridge for hockey only.

Another co-op, Fairmont-Campbell-Tintah chooses between MN or ND.  Don't have hockey.

Westby-Grenora chooses Montana.

[90siouxfan]

So a Sacred Heart with GF finest, albeit a bit of a sham, could compete in Section 8?

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, 90siouxfan said:

So a Sacred Heart with GF finest, albeit a bit of a sham, could compete in Section 8?

Theoretically, EGF Riverside Christian School could co-op too.  Think they co-op with Sacred Heart now.

But the GF schools wouldn’t do it because of many factors.

[ksixpack]

On 3/23/2019 at 3:24 PM, Ozzie82 said:

It's possible that they could win a title, but your example isn't an apples to apples comparison. Many of the D1 caliber studs at the Bantam AA level in MN have already moved on to their high school teams. Still, that's a very impressive Bantam record, and I'd love to see them play top level competition in MN at the high school level to see what happens. It would be fun to watch. I saw an GF Herald article that quotes Tarek Howard... he thinks if GF had one high school team they'd compete with Edina and Morehead. I wish we could see it!

Hmmm...I don't see too many kids leaving Bantam AA in MN for high school.  I could only probably name 3 this year and it was to high school programs that needed them...the blue bloods of MN AA like Edina and Eden Prairie rarely if ever bring up a 9th grader with Bantam eligibility.  For example, Mittlestadt, Holt, and Bachelder played with Eden Prairie bantam last year as 9th graders and all three were top players on EP high school team this year and certainly would have helped them last year.  Same goes for Nick Williams at Edina last year as he played bantam AA as a commit to Gophers.  On the other hand, Cole Spicer had a year left to play with Aviators but chose to play at Central...plug him into this years Aviator team and how do you think that would have went?

[ksixpack]

On 3/23/2019 at 5:31 PM, 90siouxfan said:

So a Sacred Heart with GF finest, albeit a bit of a sham, could compete in Section 8?

If GF's finest from last 4 years and next couple years played as one team and nobody left to play elsewhere and that team was allowed to play MN AA; they would win it at least once...no doubt.

[PuckLuck]

What are everyones thoughts on this a year later? Same problems, different year? Do you think the state will ever consider it, or is it a wasted conversation?

[MafiaMan]

On 3/23/2019 at 5:15 PM, SiouxVolley said:

They co-op with Breckinridge for hockey only.

Another co-op, Fairmont-Campbell-Tintah chooses between MN or ND.  Don't have hockey.

Westby-Grenora chooses Montana.

You're telling me that the Grenora Gophers are no more?

EDIT:  The Mon-Dak Thunder?  Well, as long as no one is offended, I guess...

https://www.facebook.com/MonDakThunder?ref=br_tf

[Walsh Hall]

3 hours ago, PuckLuck said:

What are everyones thoughts on this a year later? Same problems, different year? Do you think the state will ever consider it, or is it a wasted conversation?

This is probably the most parity in many years.  It won't be a huge shock to have any of the top (4) teams in the East win it this year.  Too bad the West is so down this year.  It will likely be a sweep for the East in the opening round.

I wouldn't be surprised if the East has pretty good parity for a few years.  The GF Bantam teams this year are definitely a step below their typical level of play and domination.