Dear any new Bakken Billionaires

[82SiouxGuy]

Fair weather fairs might stop following a team that has a losing record, but not the real fans. I would rather have a Sioux team with a losing record to cheer for than no Sioux team at all.

Look at probably 90% of the athletic teams in the country. When they are successful they get more fans in the seats, more people buying tickets, more people buying merchandise, etc. When the teams lose attendance goes down, less tickets are sold, etc. This results in less money, and means cuts have to be made, which probably hurts the program even more.

There are only a few programs that can escape this pattern. The Chicago Cubs is the first that jumps to mind. Look at football crowds the last couple of years at UND. Look at hockey crowds during the early 90's at UND. Look at basketball crowds the last few years at UND. When the teams lose attendance goes down. That is a fact. Setting up the program to die a slow death like this is not fair to the athletes or the coaches when it can be avoided by changing the nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

I get it, 90% of all sports fan are fair weather. No argument on that point. I'm just speaking out from my own personal point of view (as in the case every time that I speak out about anything) that, in a hypothetical scenario, I would support a Sioux team with a losing record before I would support a winning team by any other name. I understand and accept that I am not like most fans who lose interest when the team is not winning.

And the fans that will continue to support the program may not be able to pay all of the bills. That is one of the ways that programs fall apart.

[bincitysioux]

Yep. I'm voting no, you're voting yes. I'm pro-nickname, you're anti-nickname. Got it!

A better description of yourself would be that you are anti-University of North Dakota.............................

[82SiouxGuy]

So... do whatever it takes to keep the fair weather fans interested and if that alienates some of the other fans so be it? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, just trying to clarify that you're saying what I think you're saying.

Let's see, keep a sports nickname so that a few selfish fans can get what they want but you lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions and lose the support of most of your fanbase because you have a losing program, OR simply choose a new nickname and have a chance to be successful on the playing surface as well as being able to pay the bills. Yeah, that's an easy choice. A healthy athletic program is what's important because it's good for the school. But I'm pretty sure that you still won't really get what I'm saying because you haven't gotten a thing I've ever posted on this forum.

[bincitysioux]

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, Sioux hater.

Keep telling yourself that you are on the "moral high-road"........................

It is obvious that you have no regard for the University as a whole, or its athletic programs including hockey and football. You have made it very clear that you are no friend of any facet of UND...........athletically or academically.

I just can't figure out why you hate North Dakota hockey and football as much as you obviously do...........................

[watchmaker49]

Hogwash

your still just dreaming this stuff up

Fear mongering at it's worst

Get a Admin. that solves problems not create them

Are you, who has nothing to lose, really that willing to bet on such a log shot? Come on the only time such a long shot wins is on the Disney Channel.

[82SiouxGuy]

It's not that I don't get what you're saying, it's that I have a different set of priorities/values. I understand what you're saying, and from a bottom line point of view I can see where it makes sense to the impartial observer with no vested interest in one side or the other. It's just that I have a vested interest in the side that appears to be getting thrown under the bus.

We know what your priority is, it's you. Most of your posts are about you and what you want. You want to keep the name. You want football uniforms that fit like the ones from the 70's. You don't like HD TV. You think the Pens are angels. It's always about you. You always interject what you want, and often highjack threads to do it. Your set of values seems to be about being selfish. It doesn't matter what is good for the players or the coaches or for anyone else as long as YOU get to keep your sacred nickname.

I don't know if you've heard, but there is no I in TEAM. The issue about retiring the nickname is about the TEAM. Being under sanctions is bad for the TEAM. No one on this forum is a totally impartial observer, and most of us really like the nickname, but retiring it is what is best for the TEAM. In this case the TEAM means the athletic department and the school. We have learned to sacrifice our own wants to get what is best for the TEAM that we care about. You can't comprehend that because you have the bizarre belief that the nickname is the team. It isn't and you should be old enough to know the difference. Instead you are willing to let the foundation be destroyed so you can keep the sign on the door. That's what the nickname is, a label or a sign on the door.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, so what? That's the way it should be, just as most of your posts should be about what you want.

Really, it shouldn't. I don't come here to read what you like or want. I come to share information and ideas. It isn't the same thing.

You didn't like when I suggested you read something from the Bible. Maybe you should read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001930/ instead. Check the list of symptoms, especially the last 2. This really explains a lot.

[82SiouxGuy]

I post what I like and want, you post what you like and what. Don't you dare try holding me to a different standard just because my values and priorities are not a carbon copy of yours, you intolerant jerk!!!!

I'm holding you to the same standards that I hold myself to. I work very hard not to be selfish, to give back to the greater good. That is true on the board and in real life. You seem to be a little selfish. Just saying.

[Bison Dan]

I don't hate North Dakota hockey and football. On the contrary, I love North Dakota hockey and football (as long as they're the Fighting Sioux). While I admit that I would no longer love them without the nickname I still would not hate them, I would simply have no strong opinion one way or the other. It's not like I would root against them or anything like that, I would just lose interest and stop paying attention. That isn't hate, that is apathy.

Admit it - you just love the name. Without the name you think of North Dakota as just another college with sports teams. Sad to have fans like you.

[darell1976]

Dave if you love the name so much since you won't cheer for UND after its retired there is a high school on the Standing Rock Reservation that has the nickname Fighting Sioux you could be a fan of that team.

[UNDBIZ]

Keep telling yourself that you are on the "moral high-road"........................ It is obvious that you have no regard for the University as a whole, or its athletic programs including hockey and football. You have made it very clear that you are no friend of any facet of UND...........athletically or academically. I just can't figure out why you hate North Dakota hockey and football as much as you obviously do...........................

LakesDave is actually a goopher fan so it makes sense....

[jdub27]

No, you can't have it both ways. If you can claim to respect and care about them while being in favor of putting it to death, then I can claim to respect and care about UND while being in favor of accepting the sanctions to keep the nickname. Don't try to hold me to a different standard than you're holding yourself to.

It's not that I don't get what you're saying, it's that I have a different set of priorities/values. I understand what you're saying, and from a bottom line point of view I can see where it makes sense to the impartial observer with no vested interest in one side or the other. It's just that I have a vested interest in the side that appears to be getting thrown under the bus.

I don't hate North Dakota hockey and football. On the contrary, I love North Dakota hockey and football (as long as they're the Fighting Sioux). While I admit that I would no longer love them without the nickname I still would not hate them, I would simply have no strong opinion one way or the other. It's not like I would root against them or anything like that, I would just lose interest and stop paying attention. That isn't hate, that is apathy.

Here's the issue: You claim you have priorities/values and values, but in reality, all you are saying is that it is all about DaveK and nothing else. You've made that abundantly clear. It is not what is best for the University of North Dakota, its athletic department or student-athletes. It is about what you want, no matter how selfish that may be (and it is incredibly selfish). The rest of us are looking out for what is best for everyone involved. Sometimes in life you make decisions you don't want to because it is for the greater good. It is unfortunate and very sad that you are so selfish and only concerned about what you want and what you like that you won't allow yourself to see (or care about) the damage your selfishness will cause. The vested interest you claim to have is nothing more than your own selfish interest. It has nothing to do with anything but what you want.

I don't hold anyone to a different set of standard than myself. I don't want to lose the nickname/logo, but I would rather lose that than watch the University of North Dakota athletic department be put at a disadvantage and slowly dwindle away. You and your selfishness on the other hand would purposely put UND at a disadvantage just so you can see them wear a certain jersey and be announced a certain way before games, regardless of the known and yet to be known consequences that come with that. That again shows where your priorities lie, whatever is best for yourself.

[Bison06]

So, put aside for a second what you think should be the outcome when the dust settles with all of this. What do you think will be the actual outcome?

I think the vote comes back and UND changes the name to avoid sanctions, ultimately losing DaveK as a fan.

[UNDBIZ]

So, put aside for a second what you think should be the outcome when the dust settles with all of this. What do you think will be the actual outcome?

I think the vote comes back and UND changes the name to avoid sanctions, ultimately losing DaveK as a fan.

Unfortunately, I think the people of ND will vote to retain the name, then the supreme court will find the law unconstitutional, then the constitutional amendment will be passed, then the Big Sky will remove UND (unless the legislature acts quickly with a 2/3 vote to undo the constitutional amendment).

[82SiouxGuy]

I get most of what you're saying but not the "best for everyone involved" part. How exactly is it best for everyone involved? It's not like student-athletes don't have choices to attend other schools, nobody is going to force them to come to North Dakota. The school could make a very big statement by just dropping athletics altogether and moving on as an institution of higher education. Some of the finest colleges in the country don't have sports. The NCAA is a corrupt organization, and I consider it a matter of principle to not follow their hateful and racist demands. Sure, it would be great to continue having sports... BUT AT WHAT COST? That is the part that too many people here aren't getting. For most of you, there is no cost too big. Let's keep our NCAA membership in good standing at any cost. That kind of logic just doesn't fly with me.

By keeping the name and staying in the NCAA you are still supporting the NCAA. The NCAA is not harmed in any way by UND keeping or retiring the nickname. So you aren't following your own standard. If you don't want to support the NCAA because you think they are racist than you should be demanding that UND leaves the NCAA. Anything less means that you are a hypocrite.

Of course you should also realize that if UND were to give up athletics the nickname would also go away. So you advocating to end sports would mean that you are advocating to end the nickname. The only way you can advocate to keep the nickname alive and still not support the NCAA would be to ask UND to move to the NAIA. That is the only logical conclusion. Ending sports at UND ends the nickname. Staying in the NCAA either with or without the nickname means supporting the NCAA. There is only one place left for you to go.

[82SiouxGuy]

You are crusading here non-stop to support dropping the name. That is what you want, your own selfish desire. Our wants are opposite, but the way we voice them is the same. So, yes you are trying to hold me to a different standard.

I am crusading to support the University of North Dakota and do what is best for the student-athletes, the coaches, the staff and the bulk of the fans. The unfortunate result is retiring the nickname. I don't WANT to retire the nickname. I want UND to be successful, and that can't happen with the sanctions in place. So UND NEEDS to retire the name to be successful. You have a personal want and that comes first for you. I am supporting the needs of the University, trying to support the greater good. I will support the University either way. I will keep my season tickets either way. You will only follow UND if they are the Sioux. Your position is selfish, I'm trying not to be selfish. That's where the main difference is. You can't see past YOU and your wants.

[jdub27]

I get most of what you're saying

I'm glad we can agree on you being selfish.

How exactly is it best for everyone involved? It's not like student-athletes don't have choices to attend other schools, nobody is going to force them to come to North Dakota.

Studies continue to show that strong athletic programs lead to strong universities. Harming the athletic department and putting it on sanctions does not allow it to compete at the highest level it is capable of. That does not reflect well on the University of North Dakota. People advocating for the change care about the University itself, not the jersey's the teams wear or what name is above their score on the scoreboard. Unfortunately that is beyond your selfish needs/wants.

The school could make a very big statement by just dropping athletics altogether and moving on as an institution of higher education. Some of the finest colleges in the country don't have sports.

Really? Looking through top 50 schools, I didn't see one that doesn't participate in not only sports, but they all appear to sponsor sports in the NCAA at some level. US News Rankings

Feel free to double check and ponit out if I missed one, but your point is absolutely incorrect.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm glad we can agree on you being selfish.

Studies continue to show that strong athletic programs lead to strong universities. Harming the athletic department and putting it on sanctions does not allow it to compete at the highest level it is capable of. That does not reflect well on the University of North Dakota. People advocating for the change care about the University itself, not the jersey's the teams wear or what name is above their score on the scoreboard. Unfortunately that is beyond your selfish needs/wants.

Really? Looking through top 50 schools, I didn't see one that doesn't participate in not only sports, but they all appear to sponsor sports in the NCAA at some level. US News Rankings

Feel free to double check and ponit out if I missed one, but your point is absolutely incorrect.

I couldn't think of any schools without sports, but I didn't have time to do the research. I believe that there are a few small private schools that do not have athletics. Obviously they aren't the top end schools, at least not the ones we think of. Of course everything could be totally different in the universe that Dave lives in.

[82SiouxGuy]

That would be a lesser evil than to see a UND team with a different nickname.

As jdub pointed out, that wouldn't be the best thing for UND.

[jdub27]

As jdub pointed out, that wouldn't be the best thing for UND.

You forget, it all revolves around selfish Dave. There is no other explanation for his insistence that UND be the Fighting Sioux or the whole athletic department be shut down. This is despite the fact that they have been known as other things in the past. This goes beyond cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[UNDBIZ]

That would be a lesser evil than to see a UND team with a different nickname.

Who gave this guy access to a computer??

[The Sicatoka]

That would be a lesser evil than to see a UND team with a different nickname.

UND teams have had other nicknames.

There's "Flickertails", there are the old MBB jerseys that said "NODAKS" on the front ...

[jdub27]

The best thing for UND has nothing to do with athletics. It is a school first and foremost, the best thing is based solely on academics and academics only. A school does not need an athletic dept. in order to be a fine institution of higher learning. All of this alleged concern for the school is in reality concern for only the athletics dept, which is fine if you would just be straight up and call it what it is.

I asked you to name these top colleges in country without athletic departments and you still haven't. Please list your examples. Athletics are part of the college experience as a whole. Maybe it is something you need to experience to understand. Makes understanding your logic a lot easier.

[The Sicatoka]

Ya know, had they gone away from the Sioux name in the early '70s before I was old enough to care I would most likely to this day be a fan of the UND whatevers. But because they got me hooked on the Fighting Sioux I will react accordingly when they take it away from me.

So you were never a fan of North Dakota Football.