southpaw Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 This is the puck UND used after they won their 5th National Championship in 1987. What's missing Dave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 This misguided notion that only students/alums can have any real attachment to a college sports team is one of the most flawed arguments that I have ever heard of. There are a lot of big sports fans who never attended college and at the same time a lot of college educated people who could give a rat's a$$ about sports. I happen to have a cousin who grew up in GF and is a big Sioux fan but attended college at the U of M. This cousin is not a fan of Gopher sports in spite of being a student at the U of M. Those of you who think that being a student at whatever college makes you a super fan of the sports teams at said college are idiots, plain and simple. Being a college student and being a sports fan are not one in the same, they're apples and oranges. Dave, still waiting for that list of prestigious schools without athletics that you keep touting but fail to identify. As for your other point, going to a school doesn't equal to being a fan. But athletic departments enhance the overall college experience. I've been to many games where I have no rooting interest in either team but go just because I enjoy sports. I know you wouldn't understand that concept, but athletic departmenta are a net gain for colleges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNDBIZ Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 http://www.flickr.co...@N06/7145185513 This is the puck UND used after they won their 5th National Championship in 1987. What's missing Dave? What?!? The Sioux logo must be on the other side!! UND didn't win that championship, the Fighting Sioux did! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 they gave Not re Dame a assist ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 This misguided notion that only students/alums can have any real attachment to a college sports team is one of the most flawed arguments that I have ever heard of. There are a lot of big sports fans who never attended college and at the same time a lot of college educated people who could give a rat's a$$ about sports. I happen to have a cousin who grew up in GF and is a big Sioux fan but attended college at the U of M. This cousin is not a fan of Gopher sports in spite of being a student at the U of M. Those of you who think that being a student at whatever college makes you a super fan of the sports teams at said college are idiots, plain and simple. Being a college student and being a sports fan are not one in the same, they're apples and oranges. I agree, with the exception of the idiots part. I have grown up knowing North Dakota as the Fighting Sioux and it will surely be tragic and different for them to be known by some other nickname if the vote and/or initiated measure fail. UND and the alumni have themselves to blame in the end for not nurturing good relations with the tribes way back when regardless of the nickname. I don't know what they did do or what else they could have done but it's clear that some in positions of authority, particularly at SR, have considerable enmity and racism against white people and against UND and especially against other indians who support NA imagery. At the heart of this is not whether someone went to college or didn't and should or should not have a basis to give opinions about a university or its teams or its nickname. At the heart of this is racism in reverse which has been exacerbated by the NCAA's "policy", which was implemented ostensibly to counter such racism, and it has been augmented by the abuse of the NCAA's monopolistic power - all nothing more than a cynical maelstrom that has been allowed to rage unchecked by even ND"s spineless Congressional delegation. This is made worse by many people on this board and Tim O'Keefe and the Alumni Association who simply accept what is not acceptable (i.e. "we've done all we can and we can't do any more") and help to allow ND's Congressional delegation off the hook. It is unacceptable for the native americans who are true to their customs and traditions, UND, it's fan base and it's players and its coaching staffs and it history to be rent asunder by the NCAA. What should be done is for all of the parties to say that they've taken all they can stand because they can't stand no more vis-a-vis the NCAA and its antics. Settlement agreement or not we should have the following: 1.)The vast majority of NA's in ND support the nickname and logo; 2.) Those at SR have given the nickname and logo via 1969 and its history and meaning should be more thoroughly explored if there are questions about it and if the NCAA is truly concerned about native american opinions; 3.) In the event that no vote is allowed and given that there is significant evidence that overwhelming support would be obtained if a vote were held, default to the one-tribe rule irrespective of not having met the deadlines of the white man's time line. Publicly proclaiming that you're concerned about native american input and then denying and frustrating the reality of that input simply because it has not been provided according to the white man's time line - not provided in large part due to co-opting and aligning with racist forces at SR who wont allow a vote - is racist and cynical and expedient. To waive a surrender agreement in everyone's face and to indicate that issues as relevant and complex as native american input, sacred customs and ceremonies have just been "dealt with" accordingly is simply wrong. The fine folks at the NCAA -- all of whom have Phd's -- are motivated by an agenda and basically a political stance based upon some obscure thesis written a long time ago by (surprise!) someone opposed to NA imagery. The agenda and political stance must be furthered and effectuated regardless of significant, salient details which if discovered through investigation would reveal the agenda and political stance to be a fraud. No matter because the agenda and/or the political stance itself is the graven image that must be serviced and respected. The agenda or political stance is nothing more than sheer arrogant conceit held by a certain number of people who have the economic and/or political power to enforce it and characterize it as "right." It is allowed to metastasize when good people simply knuckle under thinking there's nothing more they can do. it's allowed to metastasize when good people refuse to hold their public officials accountable. It's allowed to metastasize when the "objective" press is co-opted by the agenda though I've been impressed during the last year with Haga's coverage. He's been balanced and deserves to be validated for that. I haven't always liked what's been written but he has done a pretty good job. You have this with the Republicans and Democrats. You have this with big business, as most cynically hyper-exemplified by the Supreme Court's "free speech" case involving campaign donations by businesses. You have this obviously with the NCAA. It must be opposed with inflexible resolve and intellectual rigor to be able to parse through propaganda designed to sustain the agenda. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 I agree, with the exception of the idiots part. I have grown up knowing North Dakota as the Fighting Sioux and it will surely be tragic and different for them to be known by some other nickname if the vote and/or initiated measure fail. UND and the alumni have themselves to blame in the end for not nurturing good relations with the tribes way back when regardless of the nickname. I don't know what they did do or what else they could have done but it's clear that some in positions of authority, particularly at SR, have considerable enmity and racism against white people and against UND and especially against other indians who support NA imagery. At the heart of this is not whether someone went to college or didn't and should or should not have a basis to give opinions about a university or its teams or its nickname. At the heart of this is racism in reverse which has been exacerbated by the NCAA's "policy", which was implemented ostensibly to counter such racism, and it has been augmented by the abuse of the NCAA's monopolistic power - all nothing more than a cynical maelstrom that has been allowed to rage unchecked by even ND"s spineless Congressional delegation. This is made worse by many people on this board and Tim O'Keefe and the Alumni Association who simply accept what is not acceptable (i.e. "we've done all we can and we can't do any more") and help to allow ND's Congressional delegation off the hook. It is unacceptable for the native americans who are true to their customs and traditions, UND, it's fan base and it's players and its coaching staffs and it history to be rent asunder by the NCAA. What should be done is for all of the parties to say that they've taken all they can stand because they can't stand no more vis-a-vis the NCAA and its antics. Settlement agreement or not we should have the following: 1.)The vast majority of NA's in ND support the nickname and logo; 2.) Those at SR have given the nickname and logo via 1969 and its history and meaning should be more thoroughly explored if there are questions about it and if the NCAA is truly concerned about native american opinions; 3.) In the event that no vote is allowed and given that there is significant evidence that overwhelming support would be obtained if a vote were held, default to the one-tribe rule irrespective of not having met the deadlines of the white man's time line. Publicly proclaiming that you're concerned about native american input and then denying and frustrating the reality of that input simply because it has not been provided according to the white man's time line - not provided in large part due to co-opting and aligning with racist forces at SR who wont allow a vote - is racist and cynical and expedient. To waive a surrender agreement in everyone's face and to indicate that issues as relevant and complex as native american input, sacred customs and ceremonies have just been "dealt with" accordingly is simply wrong. The fine folks at the NCAA -- all of whom have Phd's -- are motivated by an agenda and basically a political stance based upon some obscure thesis written a long time ago by (surprise!) someone opposed to NA imagery. The agenda and political stance must be furthered and effectuated regardless of significant, salient details which if discovered through investigation would reveal the agenda and political stance to be a fraud. No matter because the agenda and/or the political stance itself is the graven image that must be serviced and respected. The agenda or political stance is nothing more than sheer arrogant conceit held by a certain number of people who have the economic and/or political power to enforce it and characterize it as "right." It is allowed to metastasize when good people simply knuckle under thinking there's nothing more they can do. it's allowed to metastasize when good people refuse to hold their public officials accountable. It's allowed to metastasize when the "objective" press is co-opted by the agenda though I've been impressed during the last year with Haga's coverage. He's been balanced and deserves to be validated for that. I haven't always liked what's been written but he has done a pretty good job. You have this with the Republicans and Democrats. You have this with big business, as most cynically hyper-exemplified by the Supreme Court's "free speech" case involving campaign donations by businesses. You have this obviously with the NCAA. It must be opposed with inflexible resolve and intellectual rigor to be able to parse through propaganda designed to sustain the agenda. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkster Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Funny how it's come down to DaveK, Fetch, and Chewey against the world. With any luck, those will be the only 3 "No" votes that show up in the June vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Some students/alums have an attachment to the school itself, but many (perhaps most) could care less about sports and have complete apathy towards the athletics program altogether. And some, like my cousin who attended the U of M, follow sports but have a favorite team that isn't one representing the school they attend. I would think I'm not going too far out on a limb when I suggest that probably the majority of fans of any college sports team never even attended the school that their favorite team represents. Stop spreading the myth that students/alums are better fans than those of us who only like the team and have no interest in the actual school itself. Dave, why do you keep ignoring my requests to list your examples of top tier schools that don't have athletics? Can't be any reason behind it can there...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Funny how it's come down to DaveK, Fetch, and Chewey against the world. With any luck, those will be the only 3 "No" votes that show up in the June vote. You forgot yababy, although he hasn't posted a lot lately. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't live in North Dakota so he won't be voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Dave, why do you keep ignoring my requests to list your examples of top tier schools that don't have athletics? Can't be any reason behind it can there...? He made a direct statement that he can't back up. But because he made the statement he's right. Dave is always right, it's time for us all to realize that and just ignore every post he makes, I mean accept every post he makes. That is probably the best for everyone on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkster Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Members of the SiouxSports.com anti-nickname clique will be shocked to learn that there is a big world outside of this message board. If you talk to people in real life you'll find that there are a lot more of us out there than you would like to think. Dave, so many people have seen the light and switched sides. I know 5 years ago I was in the tiny minority wanting the name changed. Now, thankfully a lot of people who fried me for that position are some of biggest proponents and I applaud them for realizing the need. It's time to do the right thing and move on, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Wow, you're quite the pest aren't you? What are you trying to say here... that a college is unable to give kids a good education if the school doesn't have a football or basketball team? That's ridiculous and deep down inside I'm sure you know how ridiculous it is. I don't know the names of the schools that don't have athletics, but that's hardly the point. The point is that I do know athletics has nothing to do with education and even though I doubt you're man enough to admit it I think you're smart enough to realize that I'm right. Getting pretty defensive. You said UND should make a statement and drop athletics and it wouldn't matter because many of the finest colleges in the US don't have athletics in response to my comment that the athletics of a University are part of the college experience. All I asked you to do is back up this statement that you made... I get most of what you're saying but not the "best for everyone involved" part. How exactly is it best for everyone involved? It's not like student-athletes don't have choices to attend other schools, nobody is going to force them to come to North Dakota. The school could make a very big statement by just dropping athletics altogether and moving on as an institution of higher education. Some of the finest colleges in the country don't have sports. The NCAA is a corrupt organization, and I consider it a matter of principle to not follow their hateful and racist demands. Sure, it would be great to continue having sports... BUT AT WHAT COST? That is the part that too many people here aren't getting. For most of you, there is no cost too big. Let's keep our NCAA membership in good standing at any cost. That kind of logic just doesn't fly with me. So go ahead. Either admit you are wrong or list the colleges you are referring to. Not rocket science by any means. Since it is some of the finest colleges in the country, they should be pretty easy to name them off. I even provided you with the US News list of top colleges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 The "right thing to do" is to fight back against anything that is motivated by PC zealots. With what? The State of ND filed suit for UND in state court. That got us the settlement agreement (that SR intentionally let die). Spirit Lake tried a Federal case that got tossed for lack of standing. So the State has no recourse against the NCAA (because the settlement included giving up the right to re-file the case). The supportive Tribe has no Federal recourse apparently. And the ND Congressional delegation was, is, and surely will continue to be MIA. What do you propose to fight with or even appeal to? (Hint: As much as you'd probably like to say it, "Starfleet Command" is not an option.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 So what you're really trying to say here is that a college is not capable of giving kids a good education if they don't have sports. Got it! No, what he's saying is that you market to the target audience. A significant fraction of incoming freshmen, good or bad, right or wrong, look at athletics (either to play or attend) as an important factor in their college selection process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 So what you're really trying to say here is that a college is not capable of giving kids a good education if they don't have sports. Got it! No. What I am saying is you claim that many of the finest universities in the US don't offer athletics and you refuse to name any of them. And you keep avoiding answering the question. Not surprising from someone who thinks of only himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Do you believe it is possible for a college to provide a good education without having an athletic dept.? Yes or no, please answer the question. The questions was about the complete college experience. You are the one who said that many of the finest colleges in the US don't have athletics. You made a false statement and can't back it up. Keep moving the target and pretending you aren't making things up Dave. It wasn't a matter of whether or not it can't be done, it was a matter of you saying that it is done. And based on the info that is out there, it appears that all of the finest colleges in the US do in fact have athletic departments. So unless you can provide an examples of many of the finest colleges in the US not having athletics, I guess there is no way to know... You seem to be the one that won't answer a questions about a statement you made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Do you believe it is possible for a college to provide a good education without having an athletic dept.? Yes or no, please answer the question. Do the most prestigious schools in the world, schools that don't need athletics because of their academics, still have intercollegiate athletics? http://www.timeshigh...n-rankings.html The Top Ten Most Prestigious and their athletics affiliations: Harvard - NCAA DI MIT - NCAA DIII Cambridge - http://www.sport.cam...work/index.html UC Berkeley - NCAA DI Stanford - NCAA DI Oxford College - http://www.sport.ox.ac.uk/ Princeton - NCAA DI U of Tokyo - http://peak.c.u-toky...e/s-and-aa.html <-- there are dudes in football helmets in that picture! Yale - NCAA DI Cal Tech - NCAA DIII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Funny how it's come down to DaveK, Fetch, and Chewey against the world. With any luck, those will be the only 3 "No" votes that show up in the June vote. Don't you read the GF Hurled? You have Tim O'Keefe and Alumni Association and 250K and all of the "cocktail parties" providing your answer to that one. And, they're right. You don't get 250K in the bank and fly around ND in an NDSU-owned jet for a badminton match. 250K and cocktail parties tell me that O'Keefe, SBoHE et al believe there will be a lot more than 3 "No" votes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Chewey, disparaging Tim O'Keefe, UND graduate, UND mens hockey letterwinner, member of a family of four generations of UND athleetes, really doesn't make your case. If Tim's mind has been changed on the subject, I'd recommend you look into what it took to change the mind of the man to sat behind the UND mens hockey color commentary radio mike, at SCSU after they announced their campus ban of the world "Sioux", and said, "Fighting Sioux. FIghting Sioux! Fighting SIOUX!" live, on air, in the SCSU press box, in front of their "hall monitors". If he's changed his mind on the subject, please, go ask him why and quit with the other non-sense because it makes you look somewhere between petty and foolish (and you're neither). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Stop trying to argue semantics and answer the question already : Yes or no, do you believe it is possible for a college to provide a good education without having an athletic dept.? That wasn't the question. You are the one changing it. Provide an answer or admit your were wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 No. What I am saying is you claim that many of the finest universities in the US don't offer athletics and you refuse to name any of them. And you keep avoiding answering the question. Not surprising from someone who thinks of only himself. Dave can't be wrong. It is completely impossible for him. Therefore he can only answer questions when he can be right. Otherwise he will try to change the question to something he can answer correctly, or try to turn the question around to someone else. Even though his original statement appears to be false, it obviously can't be because Dave can't be wrong. The best advice seems to be never question Dave. If he can't be wrong, why question him? Just let him make his statements and move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Some of the finest colleges in the country don't have sports. Your inability to provide a single example backing up a statement you made is nothing short of ridiculous and frankly embarrassing for you. And as to your point about the correlation between athletics and education, as others have pointed out, the finest colleges in the country have athletics and you can't prove different. They obviously deem it an important part of the college experience. I wouldn't expect you to understand. But the fact that you make sweeping generalizations, get called out on it and fail to prove your comments as fact shows exactly what you are. Someone who cares about themselves and nothing else and will make any statement to prove there point even when that statement is blatantly false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 An athletic program does not define a good education, however, having a good athletic program attracts high potential students, which furthers the educational ability of the University. The brightest students want to attend a University that has a good athletic program. It is a cycle. UND is not going to compete with the IVY's or other top tier Universities on the basis of faculty and academics alone. Having a top notch athletic program might be what draws some higher end candidates. Those higher end candidates work as research assistants, etc and make the education better... Athletics are key to a University's marketing, not only for athletes, but also for students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) Chewey, disparaging Tim O'Keefe, UND graduate, UND mens hockey letterwinner, member of a family of four generations of UND athleetes, really doesn't make your case. If Tim's mind has been changed on the subject, I'd recommend you look into what it took to change the mind of the man to sat behind the UND mens hockey color commentary radio mike, at SCSU after they announced their campus ban of the world "Sioux", and said, "Fighting Sioux. FIghting Sioux! Fighting SIOUX!" live, on air, in the SCSU press box, in front of their "hall monitors". If he's changed his mind on the subject, please, go ask him why and quit with the other non-sense because it makes you look somewhere between petty and foolish (and you're neither). It is not intended to castigate him or vilify him necessarily. I know his history playing hockey and about the nickname. The whole 250K and cocktail parties thing would not sit well with me regardless of the person involved. I think a lot more could be done by him and by the SBoHE in terms of publicly requesting ND's Congressional delegation to intervene - surrender agreement or not - and in terms of exhibiting solidarity in the face of a monopolistic and abusive national entity. How is it that Hoeven sits on the Indian Affairs Committee and does not bother to even comment on this or take a position on it or even write a responsive letter to the SL Tribal Council? There's more at stake than the nickname and UND. The voices of the Native Americans - at least the ones referenced in the surrender agreement who may support the nickname and logo- have been completely squelched and their word, their traditions are being besmirched. In light of this, how does Hoeven maintain the moral authority to continue sitting on the Indian Affairs Committee? The nickname and logo and the way they were given to the university mean something to a lot of Sioux Indians. To consider those complexities in a wholly truncated and cynically expeditious manner, under the auspices of the surrender agreement, and conclude the matter over is simply wrong and, yes, a manifestation of racism in and of itself. How many times and in how many contexts have native americans been viewed and considered in this way by the dominant white culture of which the NCAA is simply an extension? Irrespective of Bernard Franklin and members of other minorities being in positions of authority there and irrespective of the NCAA's specious and fanciful sophistry about stamping out racism through misguided policies like the one impacting UND now, you have racism being perpetrated and augmented. Talk about paving the way to Hell with "good" (and I'm giving the NCAA considerable deference there) intentions. Tim, the Alumni Association, UND and ND's Congressional delegation are all allowing themselves to operate as functionaries in all of this. Protecting the university and its athletes and its athletic programs should not even be necessary. The school and its teams should not even be akin to hostages with respect to this or any issue but that's exactly what they are. This makes the conduct and position of the NCAA even more immoral. "It's just a nickname" and "we have a surrender agreement" are simplistic characterizations of this. It's the fairly inscrutable racist pathology behind those phrases, as evidenced and effectuated by the NCAA policy and the ostensible bases for it, that's really at issue. The Native Americans themselves are leading the fight against this. As one very closely tied with SL and CUR, I can assure anyone that these are not people who have simply been propped up or co-opted by a few white nickname and logo supporters. Like I've said before, Roger Yankton and the SL Tribal Council and Archie Fool Bear, Linus End of Horn and others from SR and the CUR could pull the plug at any time. Edited May 6, 2012 by Chewey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Your inability to provide a single example backing up a statement you made is nothing short of ridiculous and frankly embarrassing for you. And as to your point about the correlation between athletics and education, as others have pointed out, the finest colleges in the country have athletics and you can't prove different. They obviously deem it an important part of the college experience. I wouldn't expect you to understand. But the fact that you make sweeping generalizations, get called out on it and fail to prove your comments as fact shows exactly what you are. Someone who cares about themselves and nothing else and will make any statement to prove there point even when that statement is blatantly false. University of Phoenix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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