Sioux-cia Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 For years, we have told the Sioux people, "You honor us with your name and image. We respect you and your past." There's a quote in the locker room at the Ralph reminding the players to honor the SIoux tribes in how they play. We courted the Sioux people for years vying for their permission to continue to use their name and image. We obtained the permission of one tribe. The second tribe hasn't been allowed to say yay or nay. I've been working near the Spirit Lake reservation for a few months now. The Sioux name and logo are everywhere. The people aren't wearing them because they love UND athletics like we do. They wear the name and logo because they're proud of who they are. They're proud of the honor and respect they and their past have garnered from UNDs use the name and image. Out there for everyone to see. 'WE are the Fighting Sioux' they say without speaking the words out loud. I don't know for sure but I think that's the reason the Sioux people are fighting so hard for UND to keep the name and logo. But, now the risks are too high and the name and logo must be retired. So, Mr. O'Keefe, are you going to write a letter to the Sioux as well. Are you going to tell them, "Hey, it was great while it lasted but you now represent 'risks too high to my university'. Go away, you're not worth the risks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishSiouxFan Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Where was Spirit Lake when the NCAA first passed this policy? They could have easily have made it where UND needed only a "one tribe exception". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 For years, we have told the Sioux people, "You honor us with your name and image. We respect you and your past." There's a quote in the locker room at the Ralph reminding the players to honor the SIoux tribes in how they play. We courted the Sioux people for years vying for their permission to continue to use their name and image. We obtained the permission of one tribe. The second tribe hasn't been allowed to say yay or nay. I've been working near the Spirit Lake reservation for a few months now. The Sioux name and logo are everywhere. The people aren't wearing them because they love UND athletics like we do. They wear the name and logo because they're proud of who they are. They're proud of the honor and respect they and their past have garnered from UNDs use the name and image. Out there for everyone to see. 'WE are the Fighting Sioux' they say without speaking the words out loud. I don't know for sure but I think that's the reason the Sioux people are fighting so hard for UND to keep the name and logo. But, now the risks are too high and the name and logo must be retired. So, Mr. O'Keefe, are you going to write a letter to the Sioux as well. Are you going to tell them, "Hey, it was great while it lasted but you now represent 'risks too high to my university'. Go away, you're not worth the risks." If the Tribal Council at Spirit Lake would have written a letter to the NCAA in 2005, or 2006, or even the first part of 2007 we could have avoided the whole problem. It just would have taken 1 tribe to come forward at that time and the NCAA would have put UND in the same class as Florida State and Utah. They refused to do it until the referendum was passed in 2009 and they were forced to act. I wish Spirit Lake good luck with their lawsuit, but I am more worried about the student-athletes and the rest of the athletic program at UND right now than the members at Spirit Lake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIOUXNDFAN Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think everyone is going to keep their head on a swivel on this issue. It under many fronts, judicial and otherwise will stay in the news. It would be nice of if the ND State Attorney general, Mr. No Opinion would actually give some guidance to someone on the law that was passed, and now in process of being repealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think everyone is going to keep their head on a swivel on this issue. It under many fronts, judicial and otherwise will stay in the news. It would be nice of if the ND State Attorney general, Mr. No Opinion would actually give some guidance to someone on the law that was passed, and now in process of being repealed. Im just flabbergasted that he didn't defend the contract he signed when the legislature was considering the law the first time around. He sat there twiddling his thumbs while the legislature crapped all over his deal. The more I think about this whole thing I'm starting to blame Wayne as much as Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If the Tribal Council at Spirit Lake would have written a letter to the NCAA in 2005, or 2006, or even the first part of 2007 we could have avoided the whole problem. It just would have taken 1 tribe to come forward at that time and the NCAA would have put UND in the same class as Florida State and Utah. They refused to do it until the referendum was passed in 2009 and they were forced to act. I wish Spirit Lake good luck with their lawsuit, but I am more worried about the student-athletes and the rest of the athletic program at UND right now than the members at Spirit Lake. Tribes are subject to their councils' wishes. They vote in a council to respresents them. They screwed themselve. Now the image of UND fans and alumni have is that of liars and users. Our actions speak volumes; not all fans and alumni honored and respected the Sioux. They just wanted their cool name and image. It's all about us now. It's not just a name and logo we're losing. Mr. O'Keefe is correct, 'the issues and dangers “have extended themselves way beyond the sanctions imposed by the NCAA on teams that used American Indian imagery.”It's not just about athletic programs and a conference anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIOUXNDFAN Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Im just flabbergasted that he didn't defend the contract he signed when the legislature was considering the law the first time around. He sat there twiddling his thumbs while the legislature crapped all over his deal. The more I think about this whole thing I blame I'm starting to blame Wayne as much as Al. Im just flabbergasted that he didn't defend the contract he signed when the legislature was considering the law the first time around. He sat there twiddling his thumbs while the legislature crapped all over his deal. The more I think about this whole thing I blame I'm starting to blame Wayne as much as Al. He was trying so hard to not get in the "middle" of it, worried about political damage to himself. He is completely self serving. Who is Wayne working for, the state or sustaining his own career? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Tribes are subject to their councils' wishes. They vote in a council to respresents them. They screwed themselve. Now the image of UND fans and alumni have is that of liars and users. Our actions speak volumes; not all fans and alumni honored and respected the Sioux. They just wanted their cool name and image. It's all about us now. It's not just a name and logo we're losing. Mr. O'Keefe is correct, 'the issues and dangers “have extended themselves way beyond the sanctions imposed by the NCAA on teams that used American Indian imagery.”It's not just about athletic programs and a conference anymore. Don't forget the settlement with the NCAA. That is a legally binding agreement. Trying to break that agreement or not live up to what was agreed to makes the University and the state look bad also. Would you want to do business with someone that has a history of breaking contracts? No one is going to come out of this looking good. But it needs to end as soon as possible to limit the damage as much as possible. And don't fool yourself. It has been all about us for a lot of people the entire time. Before 2005 very few people cared what the Native Americans thought. There was no statement of respect for the tribes. When the policy came out it started to become "Well, if the tribes would tell us they don't want it, I might be willing to get rid of it." After the vote in Spirit Lake it became, "Standing Rock deserves to be heard because we're sure they would vote for us." What about all of the other tribes? Most people can't tell you if someone is Sioux or Chippewa by looking at them. Many of the people that have felt the anger are Chippewa. But no one cares what they think. Or all of the other Sioux tribes that have come out against the name. Remember, all of the other tribes in the region, other than Spirit Lake, have come out against the name. But people are trying to pick and choose who they want to hear from based on the result they want to get. None of this is a good way to make policy. UND has to live with the current situation and the things they can control. Changing the nickname is something they can control to limit the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 And don't fool yourself. It has been all about us for a lot of people the entire time. Before 2005 very few people cared what the Native Americans thought. There was no statement of respect for the tribes. Wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 all that had to play out & your wrong about respect (is that what motivates so many of your kind ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Wow! What part of that statement wasn't factual? I don't remember exactly when the video tribute to the Sioux people that's narrated by Scott Hennen was first used (that is the statement of respect I'm talking about), but it was early to mid 2000's and definitely after the Ralph opened. So it was close to the time the NCAA issued their policy. It was created because UND realized that they needed to do more. And before 2005, when there were protests, people weren't worried whether the tribes actually approved of the name or not. No one said, "Maybe we should get a vote of the tribe members." People just wanted the protestors to go away. They thought that UND had a perfect right to use the name and no one could take it away from them. Some of them still feel that way. No one, including University officials, made an effort to develop a relationship with the tribes. There are plenty of people that now are aware of the tribes, and who even have an interest in what the tribe members want. That is one of the good things that have come out of the issue. But there is still a group that don't care about the tribes and think that UND should have the right to do whatever they want. And there are some people that say they support the rights of the tribe members only because they think they can get what they want. Don't fool yourself into thinking that everyone trying to keep the Fighting Sioux name really cares about what the tribe members think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If you believe that - Shaking my head - you were never a Sioux Fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsioux4life Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If you believe that - Shaking my head - you were never a Sioux Fan And anyone that will blindly follow you and your ilk on this issue (shaking MY head) have never been a real fan of UND as an institution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'm starting to feel like I'm in that movie Groundhog day - I try to write new ideas & most of you are a broken record - google that term if your too young to get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Our actions speak volumes; not all fans and alumni honored and respected the Sioux. They just wanted their cool name and image. It's all about us now. It's not just a name and logo we're losing. Mr. O'Keefe is correct, 'the issues and dangers “have extended themselves way beyond the sanctions imposed by the NCAA on teams that used American Indian imagery.”It's not just about athletic programs and a conference anymore. The only reason the "traditions" of SL are even broached by the "save the moniker at any cost" crowd is because they serve as a useful touch point to advance their interests. They want to run around REA in their Sioux fan gear, even if it's half full and traditional rivals like Minnesota and Wisconsin cannot or will not play UND. They don't give a rat's ass if home ice, home field and home court advantage during playoffs are subsumed to a moniker. Anybody who thinks Soderstrom, Hennen, et al. care about Indian Country any more today than they did five years ago can now buy a nice bridge I have for sale ... And as a practical matter, this issue is between the state and NC$$. If anybody really wanted SR and SL to be part of this deal, they could have included them in the 2007 settlement. And the North Dakota Supreme Court has about said as much in 2010. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 What part of that statement wasn't factual? I don't remember exactly when the video tribute to the Sioux people that's narrated by Scott Hennen was first used (that is the statement of respect I'm talking about), but it was early to mid 2000's and definitely after the Ralph opened. So it was close to the time the NCAA issued their policy. It was created because UND realized that they needed to do more. And before 2005, when there were protests, people weren't worried whether the tribes actually approved of the name or not. No one said, "Maybe we should get a vote of the tribe members." People just wanted the protestors to go away. They thought that UND had a perfect right to use the name and no one could take it away from them. Some of them still feel that way. No one, including University officials, made an effort to develop a relationship with the tribes. There are plenty of people that now are aware of the tribes, and who even have an interest in what the tribe members want. That is one of the good things that have come out of the issue. But there is still a group that don't care about the tribes and think that UND should have the right to do whatever they want. And there are some people that say they support the rights of the tribe members only because they think they can get what they want. Don't fool yourself into thinking that everyone trying to keep the Fighting Sioux name really cares about what the tribe members think. This is so true of a discription of what has been happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iramurphy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 For years, we have told the Sioux people, "You honor us with your name and image. We respect you and your past." There's a quote in the locker room at the Ralph reminding the players to honor the SIoux tribes in how they play. We courted the Sioux people for years vying for their permission to continue to use their name and image. We obtained the permission of one tribe. The second tribe hasn't been allowed to say yay or nay. I've been working near the Spirit Lake reservation for a few months now. The Sioux name and logo are everywhere. The people aren't wearing them because they love UND athletics like we do. They wear the name and logo because they're proud of who they are. They're proud of the honor and respect they and their past have garnered from UNDs use the name and image. Out there for everyone to see. 'WE are the Fighting Sioux' they say without speaking the words out loud. I don't know for sure but I think that's the reason the Sioux people are fighting so hard for UND to keep the name and logo. But, now the risks are too high and the name and logo must be retired. So, Mr. O'Keefe, are you going to write a letter to the Sioux as well. Are you going to tell them, "Hey, it was great while it lasted but you now represent 'risks too high to my university'. Go away, you're not worth the risks." Sorry but you leave out some important points. There is nothing about the Fighting Sioux name that the Native American people can't continue to celebrate and that includes continued use of the name and logo as they wish. There are a group of Native people who are fighting very hard to help keep the name but that number, over time, has not been overwhelming. The most important things UND does for Native Americans is the programming that UND offers and the help for Native American students that has been there for many years. I tutored Native American students in the mid 1970's as part of a program that was not available to all students. UND has reached out for many years to the reservation communities with outreach programs in many of the academic areas, especially medicine. One of our graduating seniors last year was offered a scholarhip worth almost 1/2 of his costs. He was less than a 3.0 student. He was offered this because he was an enrolled member of the White Earth reservation. There are a lot of things UND does for Native American students that are more important and have been there for many years before some of you folks were born. If you believe that we can't do anything for Native American students on and off of our campus without calling our athletic teams the Fighting Sioux then I would suggest reviewing all of the ooferings UND has. Tim O'Keefe doesn't owe an explanation, the NCAA does. If there are Native people who think losing our atheltic programs is in there best interest then they do not understand the effect intercollegiate athletics has on the University. I seriously doubt the majority would wish to harm UND athletics and that does include our hockey team. No one will tell Native American students or fans to "go away". How do you make such a stretch?? We will continue to provide some of the most comprehensive academic and counseling programs available to Native American students andwhere in the nation. That is a higher priority than a name at all costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The GF Herald articles from last week mentioned that O'Keefe would be contacting via email various leaders around the state (at the state, county, city, and town levels) with his message about how we've reached the point where the Sioux moniker is a detriment and needs to go. Has anyone received one of those yet and is willing to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The GF Herald articles from last week mentioned that O'Keefe would be contacting via email various leaders around the state (at the state, county, city, and town levels) with his message about how we've reached the point where the Sioux moniker is a detriment and needs to go. Has anyone received one of those yet and is willing to share? Did he email Dave Hakstol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Did he email Dave Hakstol? Wouldn't Tim just stop by Dave's house to visit his grandkids and talk to Dave? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Wouldn't Tim just stop by Dave's house to visit his grandkids and talk to Dave? I hope he would. I think Dave is on the fence. He wants to please everyone...that's why he says "no comment" about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I caught the last part of an interview with Tim O'Keefe on the radio today. (paraphrasing) He said that the Hak e-mail is not the reason we are in the position we are today. That e-mail was directed to Hockey Letterwinners to keep them informed on the issue and then was forwarded and became public. At that point in time there was still a belief that some action by the Legislature/Governor could sway the NCAA. He basically said what Faison has been saying "it is what it is" and the NCAA is not budging. He refrained from saying what he really thought of the NCAA, but said it has been handled poorly by them and there have been many missed opportunities to resolve this differently. Now it has become a game of who loves the nickname more and UND loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/229331/ Shaft said he was glad to see statements late last week from Tim O’Keefe, leader of the UND Alumni Association, and Brian Faison, the school’s athletic director, warning of severe consequences UND could face if the nickname — and NCAA sanctions — continue. “I’m glad they did that,” Shaft said. “But had a lot of that happened earlier, we might not be in the position we’re in today.” Todays meeting will most likely be completely open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 “I’m glad they did that,” Shaft said. “But had a lot of that happened earlier, we might not be in the position we’re in today.” Understatement of the decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engelbunny Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 “I’m glad they did that,” Shaft said. “But had a lot of that happened earlier, we might not be in the position we’re in today.” I find this statement to be somewhat ironic. If the SBOHE had not done what they did earlier (spring of 2009), I doubt we are knee deep in this steaming pile of poo today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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