Goon Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 HOLY CRAP! A PCM sighting! Yeah I wish he posted here more... I wonder if he got his lap top fixed yet? Quote
iramurphy Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 I see Fetch is scoping out the babes ... Maybe the best comment on this subject yet! Quote
fightingsioux4life Posted January 21, 2012 Author Posted January 21, 2012 this one is for the sheep headers Good one Fetch. You can't counter with facts, so you resort to comedy. Keep supporting the petitioners if you wish, but they are not doing UND any favors. Quote
Fetch Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 Keeping hope alive is better than being herded Quote
ScottM Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 this one is for the sheep headers WTF is a "sheep header"? Did you attend 'su? Quote
Chewey Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Chewey you give no evidence that Faison, Kelly and Shaft lied to the legislature. Some folks on this blog have made accusations and changed rumors to "fact" about a number of things. In fact most of what Kelly and UND and SBoHE warned the legislature about has come to pass.So much of what I read here, and the other hundred blogs about this subject, seems to be unsubstantiated rhetoric. They stated they were told by Fullerton our admission to the Big Sky would be in jeopardy and Fullerton has stated the same to the media not too long ago. The "conspiracy theorists" claim that Kelly forced Fullerton and before that Douple to make this up to help them retire the name. If they are that weak they shouldn't be league commissioners. I certainly am not saying I fully trust Kelly or Faison, but Kelly and Faison didn't lose us the name. I did, Frank did, you did, Clifford did, Strinden did, and all of the rest of us who didn't do enough over the past 50 years to keep us from landing in this mess. To blame guys who showed up after the NCAA nailed us and the agreement was done isn't fair to those folks nor is it smart. We are where we are and we all should accept responsibility for where we are and quit blaming others. Those of us who have donated money in the past to try and keep the name should have organized and done so many years a go. We have no excuses. We may not like it, but we need to move forward and keep the Univeristy positioned as best we can for success. Believe it or not, that may be without the name. The tribes have no one to blame but themselves and we who wanted to keep the name have no one to blame but ourselves. This is not about human rights for our Native brethren. AIM and other activist Native groups are one of the reasons the NCAA got involved in the first place. The tribes and the vast majority of Natives who support the name had well over 40 years to petition the NCAA or solidify there support of the name. We all could have done more and that incluces Tom Clifford and Ralph Englestad. That doesn't mean I oppose their sainthood, but we are a lot more to blame than Kelly and Faison. Chewy, you think the Big Sky needs us more than we need them??? are you serious? They have prospered without us for years and we are going to struggle without a conference. Explain your line of thinking please. You don't think they have an eye on NDSU, SDSU and USD? You don't think those schools couldn't be courted successfully by the Big Sky? Anyone who thinks that couldn't happen hasn't watched the Big 10, WCHA, Pac !0, SEC, aCC etc. the past two years. We need the Big Sky unless you think there is a FBS league who would take us and we would have the funds to make the move. Fetch, you keep insinuating that those who disagree with you are cowards. Have you ever had to do anything that requires you risk everything you have and believe in for a cause? Can't you state you opinions without continued stupid inferences like that. You lose any credibility you may have. It doesn't take courage to name call from behind the anonimity of a blog. You can remain a man of your convictions without the continued insults. I can respect the passion for the name but one of the reasons we have failed is that we keep losing focus and start blaming someone for our own failings as a group of fans, as a University and the Fighting Sioux community both Native and non Native . We need to live to fight another day and the task is daunting. The solution may very well be a future strategy that no one is even discussing right now. If anyone thinks having our state government pass legislation about this name is a good idea then you have't paid attention to how screwed up things can get when the government is involved. Legislation will only limit our options just like the agreement with the NCAA limited our options. There is nothing wrong with holding off on selecting a name but legislation prohibiting UND from doing so decreases our flexibilit?. We who wanted the name didn't do enough to keep the name over the last 50 years. I haven't seen anything other than the movement by the tribes against the NCAA that will fix our many years of inactivity. I am as much to blame as anyone else but Faison and Kelly are not. They weren't here and probably weren't aware of the scope of the issue. Blame them for the things they are responsible for not for our failures. I appreciate your insights, Ira, and you're right about a lot of people needing to have done more some time ago. However, Kelley and Faison and Shaft do deserve blame - a lot of it. The emails and documentation provided via the FOIA requests show, without question, that UND was admitted to the Big Sky in November, 2010. For Shaft, Kelley and Faison to go to the legislature and indicate that the retention of the nickname and logo would preclude UND's membership in the Big Sky is nothing short of duplicitous pure and simple. Contracts had been signed, multiple years' worth of schedules had been set forth, etc. There are damages clauses in contracts, of course. Were UND bounced by the Big Sky, any prosepctive damages would become liquidated (i.e. identified, defined) and UND would be in for a big pay day from the Big Sky and its membership. Shaft outright lied about Notre Dame's supposed "concern" with the nickname and logo and then was torpedoed by ND's own officials who denied that. Add all of this, and more not stated here, on top of the behavior of Kelley, Shaft and Faison during the three-year "negotiation" period and there's no question that these three are ground zero for blame and can not be accorded any kind of credibility at all. Look at the testimony. Review the litany of FOIA responses, emails, etc. Listen to Frank Black Cloud. What he has been saying is all based upon the FOIA responses and he's entitled to a lot more credibility than Shaft, Kelley and Faison. The lay of the land with some posters on here is that the Spirit Lake Tribe should hopefully succeed but let all other avenues drop because Kelley Shaft and Faison and other duplicitious actors are literally propagandizing this or that about the Big Sky or about what the NCAA will or won't do. Do you honestly think that the NCAA is that stupid to do anything that would only bolster anti-trust claims? Does it seem reasonable to you that the Spirit Lake Tribe should conceivably succeed in Court against the NCAA only to have Shaft, Kelley and Faison indicate a couple of years from now that the bridge has been, money has been invested transitioning away from the name and more money won't be invested to bring it back? The petition process is essential element and is certainly not some meaningless tangent. During the Gopher/Sioux series, some people were walking over 100 to 200 yards to sign the petitions with numbed fingers in the cold. The court decision only served to motivate people to do exactly that. Your blaming of the tribes is without merit and that take on the matter is simply and expedient misdirection of responsibility that's been tendered by Shaft, Faison and Kelley and even the AG and the SBoHE - yes that same tableau of flip-flopping bunglers which represents in microcosm the broad scope of incompetence and duplicity that's been exhibited during the whole process. Where were the tribes? They were never involved in the process post-surrender agreement. When SL got organized and voted in favor of the nickname and logo, what happened? The SBoHE threw out deadlines that were never part of the surrender agreement in the first place, the SBoHE moved up the transition date, etc. No members of any tribal council even signed off on the surrender agreement. The whole "negotiation" process was never conducted in good faith, as is evidenced by the SBoHE response to SL's vote. The tribes are the very last groups of people who should be blamed in this. The fact that some are so enraged over a nickname and logo evinces nothing more than a complete lack of intellectual and psychological integrity. It is a blasphemy really, in my opinion, because such a mindset is indicative of a petty conceit - a fraudulent egoism that has its genesis in self-loathing,self-pitying hypersensitivities that the holder of such egoism expects everyone to accomodate - that is festooned by boredom, creative lethargy and complete intellectual dissonance which flies in the face of and is nothing more than a cynical parody of the true intellectual and creative gifts given to each of us by our Creator. Where a disposition of absolutism is met with a disposition of compromise, what do you think happens? Such conceit and hypersensitivity over an innocuous nickname -- something that has done and caused absolutely NO harm in over 80 years -- is unacceptable. To give such a disposition any manner of credence or credibility is unacceptable. To acquiesce to such a disposition is unacceptable. Your logic could have been employed in many instances throughout history. The Free French could have said "well we did not build the Maginot Line to cover our asses via the Ardennes, so we're just stuck now." Where was America until 1941 in World War II? Where were the Bishops of the Cathoic Church during the terrible sex abuse scandals in the 60's, 70's and 80's? Maybe people, including the tribes, trusted that Shaft, Kelley and Faison and others would not be duplicitious and would actually work towards retaining the name. Obviously the nickname and logo do not rise to the level of importance of these things but I only use these examples to point out how expedient and flawed that argument is. Expedient dissassociation is never a way to address any issue and any time is good time to get involved and fight. Native American rights and sacred customs are at issue here, like it or not. The NCAA conduct towards the native supporters of the nickname and logo is nothing short of abusive. 2 Quote
yababy8 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Expedient dissassociation is never a way to address any issue and any time is good time to get involved and fight. Native American rights and sacred customs are at issue here, like it or not. The NCAA conduct towards the native supporters of the nickname and logo is nothing short of abusive. Especially, given the absolute truth in the fact that regardless of threats, settlements, fears and brainwash, keeping the Sioux name is the right thing to do. Further and of even more importance, when we the people are denied the right to actualize what is objectively right, then we as executors of ourselves and humanity should be driven by prudence with knowledge and acceptance of the requirement of the risk of sacrifice to right that which is wrong and effectuate that which is right. 2 Quote
iramurphy Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I appreciate your insights, Ira, and you're right about a lot of people needing to have done more some time ago. However, Kelley and Faison and Shaft do deserve blame - a lot of it. The emails and documentation provided via the FOIA requests show, without question, that UND was admitted to the Big Sky in November, 2010. For Shaft, Kelley and Faison to go to the legislature and indicate that the retention of the nickname and logo would preclude UND's membership in the Big Sky is nothing short of duplicitous pure and simple. Contracts had been signed, multiple years' worth of schedules had been set forth, etc. There are damages clauses in contracts, of course. Were UND bounced by the Big Sky, any prosepctive damages would become liquidated (i.e. identified, defined) and UND would be in for a big pay day from the Big Sky and its membership. Shaft outright lied about Notre Dame's supposed "concern" with the nickname and logo and then was torpedoed by ND's own officials who denied that. Add all of this, and more not stated here, on top of the behavior of Kelley, Shaft and Faison during the three-year "negotiation" period and there's no question that these three are ground zero for blame and can not be accorded any kind of credibility at all. Look at the testimony. Review the litany of FOIA responses, emails, etc. Listen to Frank Black Cloud. What he has been saying is all based upon the FOIA responses and he's entitled to a lot more credibility than Shaft, Kelley and Faison. The lay of the land with some posters on here is that the Spirit Lake Tribe should hopefully succeed but let all other avenues drop because Kelley Shaft and Faison and other duplicitious actors are literally propagandizing this or that about the Big Sky or about what the NCAA will or won't do. Do you honestly think that the NCAA is that stupid to do anything that would only bolster anti-trust claims? Does it seem reasonable to you that the Spirit Lake Tribe should conceivably succeed in Court against the NCAA only to have Shaft, Kelley and Faison indicate a couple of years from now that the bridge has been, money has been invested transitioning away from the name and more money won't be invested to bring it back? The petition process is essential element and is certainly not some meaningless tangent. During the Gopher/Sioux series, some people were walking over 100 to 200 yards to sign the petitions with numbed fingers in the cold. The court decision only served to motivate people to do exactly that. Your blaming of the tribes is without merit and that take on the matter is simply and expedient misdirection of responsibility that's been tendered by Shaft, Faison and Kelley and even the AG and the SBoHE - yes that same tableau of flip-flopping bunglers which represents in microcosm the broad scope of incompetence and duplicity that's been exhibited during the whole process. Where were the tribes? They were never involved in the process post-surrender agreement. When SL got organized and voted in favor of the nickname and logo, what happened? The SBoHE threw out deadlines that were never part of the surrender agreement in the first place, the SBoHE moved up the transition date, etc. No members of any tribal council even signed off on the surrender agreement. The whole "negotiation" process was never conducted in good faith, as is evidenced by the SBoHE response to SL's vote. The tribes are the very last groups of people who should be blamed in this. The fact that some are so enraged over a nickname and logo evinces nothing more than a complete lack of intellectual and psychological integrity. It is a blasphemy really, in my opinion, because such a mindset is indicative of a petty conceit - a fraudulent egoism that has its genesis in self-loathing,self-pitying hypersensitivities that the holder of such egoism expects everyone to accomodate - that is festooned by boredom, creative lethargy and complete intellectual dissonance which flies in the face of and is nothing more than a cynical parody of the true intellectual and creative gifts given to each of us by our Creator. Where a disposition of absolutism is met with a disposition of compromise, what do you think happens? Such conceit and hypersensitivity over an innocuous nickname -- something that has done and caused absolutely NO harm in over 80 years -- is unacceptable. To give such a disposition any manner of credence or credibility is unacceptable. To acquiesce to such a disposition is unacceptable. Your logic could have been employed in many instances throughout history. The Free French could have said "well we did not build the Maginot Line to cover our asses via the Ardennes, so we're just stuck now." Where was America until 1941 in World War II? Where were the Bishops of the Cathoic Church during the terrible sex abuse scandals in the 60's, 70's and 80's? Maybe people, including the tribes, trusted that Shaft, Kelley and Faison and others would not be duplicitious and would actually work towards retaining the name. Obviously the nickname and logo do not rise to the level of importance of these things but I only use these examples to point out how expedient and flawed that argument is. Expedient dissassociation is never a way to address any issue and any time is good time to get involved and fight. Native American rights and sacred customs are at issue here, like it or not. The NCAA conduct towards the native supporters of the nickname and logo is nothing short of abusive. You make some good points. Some are reasonable assumptions however and there hasn't ever been much about any of retiring the name that has been reasonable. I would like to know if anyone has seen a contract between UND and the Big Sky. I don't recall exactly what UND officials told the legislature but I understood them to claim our membership in the Big Sky could be in jeopardy. When Fullerton later stated to the press that was true then that creates enough evidence for me to think they were telling the truty with regards to the Big Sky. I don't believe we know what the agreements with regards to the Big Sky are. I would doubt they wold have included anything about the name but I don't know that either. I have no idea what occurred with Notre Dame. It does seem reasonable that Spirit Lake should succeed in court. I have always felt that the best way to defeat the NCAA and thier highhandedness and unfounded accusations agianst UND would be for them to take them to court for discriminating against them. The NCAA either allows ethnic groups to be used as team names or they don't. They can't separate their ruling based on whether or not one group is white and the other of color. I understand how you and others feel Faison and Kelly let us down, but I never felt that their job was the name issue. I believe Kelly was told when he was hired the name was done and either we met the criteria or we lose the name. I have no problem with anyone fighting the NCAA or even fighting the SBoHE or UND to keep the name but not through legislation. There is too much evidence UND wil be hurt by reinstating the name without approval from the NCAA. If Fullerton says our entry to the Big Sky would be in jeopardy then with all due respects that wieghs heavier than your opinion they would do nothing. The fact that U of Mn., Wisconsin, won't play us in hockey is not good for the program. They also along with Iowa and whomever else is into the PC stuff is not good for our other sports. We want to play the best teams in the resion and the country and year in and year out those teams are included. We also benefit from the regional and for WCHA rivalries. I am not saying we should support the Spirit Lake action against the NCAA, I am saying we should not handcuff UND athletics with legislation that limits our flexability. Whatever we do we should not sign a petition nor passing legislation regarding this issue. Right now I am convinced the we have too much to lose by forcing the name on UND. Those same rights we claim are not granted to the tribes are no important than the rights of UND to follow the path chosen by those with the authority to make those decisions. Quote
Fetch Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 That pink sheep has inspired some of you ....................your welcome 1 Quote
Chewey Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 That pink sheep has inspired some of you ....................your welcome I like it Fetch. I'm sure it will/has offended some gay groups which is why I like it even more. Quote
watchmaker49 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I like it Fetch. I'm sure it will/has offended some gay groups which is why I like it even more. Proven fact is that people who are homophobic are in denial of their true sexuality. Quote
Chewey Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 You make some good points. Some are reasonable assumptions however and there hasn't ever been much about any of retiring the name that has been reasonable. I would like to know if anyone has seen a contract between UND and the Big Sky. I don't recall exactly what UND officials told the legislature but I understood them to claim our membership in the Big Sky could be in jeopardy. When Fullerton later stated to the press that was true then that creates enough evidence for me to think they were telling the truty with regards to the Big Sky. I don't believe we know what the agreements with regards to the Big Sky are. I would doubt they wold have included anything about the name but I don't know that either. I have no idea what occurred with Notre Dame. It does seem reasonable that Spirit Lake should succeed in court. I have always felt that the best way to defeat the NCAA and thier highhandedness and unfounded accusations agianst UND would be for them to take them to court for discriminating against them. The NCAA either allows ethnic groups to be used as team names or they don't. They can't separate their ruling based on whether or not one group is white and the other of color. I understand how you and others feel Faison and Kelly let us down, but I never felt that their job was the name issue. I believe Kelly was told when he was hired the name was done and either we met the criteria or we lose the name. I have no problem with anyone fighting the NCAA or even fighting the SBoHE or UND to keep the name but not through legislation. There is too much evidence UND wil be hurt by reinstating the name without approval from the NCAA. If Fullerton says our entry to the Big Sky would be in jeopardy then with all due respects that wieghs heavier than your opinion they would do nothing. The fact that U of Mn., Wisconsin, won't play us in hockey is not good for the program. They also along with Iowa and whomever else is into the PC stuff is not good for our other sports. We want to play the best teams in the resion and the country and year in and year out those teams are included. We also benefit from the regional and for WCHA rivalries. I am not saying we should support the Spirit Lake action against the NCAA, I am saying we should not handcuff UND athletics with legislation that limits our flexability. Whatever we do we should not sign a petition nor passing legislation regarding this issue. Right now I am convinced the we have too much to lose by forcing the name on UND. Those same rights we claim are not granted to the tribes are no important than the rights of UND to follow the path chosen by those with the authority to make those decisions. I hear much of what you're saying. But, the contract is/was part of the FOIA response; it's there. As for U of M, U of W, etc., not one of those schools sent a missive to John Chaske and the Committee for Understanding and Respect indicating that those schools would stop playing UND because of the nickname. There is a very good reason for that. They are undeniably public institutions supported by and funded by public monies and they employ people who are paid with public funds. U of M already has nailed one hand into the PC cross with its previous and,evidently, ill-advised statements about the nickname and logo. U of W recently did indicate that it would continue playing UND. To the extent that any refusal to play UND can be tied to the NCAA policy, that's just more arrows in the quiver for an anti-trust claim, isn't it? The Big Sky has not come out and said anything other than UND will be "marginalized" with respect to its position with the NCAA. Essentially, it is saying "we don't care but if you piss off the NCAA your financial standing could be impacted which could impact the conference. Resolve it with the NCAA one way or another please." That's the long and the short of it. As far as the Big Sky itself is concerned, it has been floundering and losing members such as Boise State and, I believe, U of Nevada Reno to other conferences. From what I recall, it rejected NDSU's bid at least informally several years ago after NDSU went D1. The attendance reports of all of the schools, save the Montana schools, are abysmal. It is not a conference that is flush with money. UND is a good addition to it because UND has a vibrant and well-funded alumni, rabid fan base, etc. The Big Sky would be insane to dump UND and it would take a majority vote of the Presidents of the members to do it. The Big Sky needs UND financially. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I hear much of what you're saying. But, the contract is/was part of the FOIA response; it's there. As for U of M, U of W, etc., not one of those schools sent a missive to John Chaske and the Committee for Understanding and Respect indicating that those schools would stop playing UND because of the nickname. There is a very good reason for that. They are undeniably public institutions supported by and funded by public monies and they employ people who are paid with public funds. U of M already has nailed one hand into the PC cross with its previous and,evidently, ill-advised statements about the nickname and logo. U of W recently did indicate that it would continue playing UND. To the extent that any refusal to play UND can be tied to the NCAA policy, that's just more arrows in the quiver for an anti-trust claim, isn't it? The Big Sky has not come out and said anything other than UND will be "marginalized" with respect to its position with the NCAA. Essentially, it is saying "we don't care but if you piss off the NCAA your financial standing could be impacted which could impact the conference. Resolve it with the NCAA one way or another please." That's the long and the short of it. As far as the Big Sky itself is concerned, it has been floundering and losing members such as Boise State and, I believe, U of Nevada Reno to other conferences. From what I recall, it rejected NDSU's bid at least informally several years ago after NDSU went D1. The attendance reports of all of the schools, save the Montana schools, are abysmal. It is not a conference that is flush with money. UND is a good addition to it because UND has a vibrant and well-funded alumni, rabid fan base, etc. The Big Sky would be insane to dump UND and it would take a majority vote of the Presidents of the members to do it. The Big Sky needs UND financially. Cal State Northridge left the Big Sky in 2001. Boise State and Idaho left in 1996. Those were the last 3 schools to leave. The Big Sky turned down NDSU after Northridge left, they didn't need another member. The conference has been very stable. It is not "floundering and losing members". That is a myth propogated by the people supporting the lawsuit and referendum. As far as UND's status with the Big Sky, there are at least 2 issues that need to be reviewed that you haven't addressed. First, technically UND isn't a full member of the conference yet. If you review the bylaws you will see that to become a full member of the conference UND must be a full member of NCAA Division I. UND is not a full Division I member yet. The NCAA considers UND a Division II member in transition to Division I. The school has to complete the transition and be approved as a Division I member. That won't happen until July at the earliest. The Big Sky accepted UND based on the assumption that they would finish the transition. The other issue is that kicking UND out of the conference is possible, but not the only action that the conference could take against the school. Kicking the school out when they are a full member would require a 100% vote of the presidents. But other actions would only require 2/3rds vote. The actions could vary a great deal. For instance, the Big Sky could prevent UND from hosting any conference tournaments. That precedent has been set by the SEC and ACC. The Big Sky would be following the best practices of the NCAA, which you believe would be more proof of anti-trust by the NCAA. But that hasn't stopped the SEC and ACC from withdrawing most league tournaments from South Carolina. If you are wrong about the anti-trust, UND would lose not only the right to host NCAA tournament games, they could potentially lose the right to host almost any post-season tournaments (other than hockey and whichever other sports are not in the Big Sky). Or the Big Sky could find other ways to penalize the school. The Spirit Lake lawsuit is the only chance of keeping the name. But it is far, far from a sure thing. And the results won't be known for quite a while. Forcing the school to keep using the nickname during this period, when the chances of winning the lawsuit are not good, is an irresponsible business decision. That's why it is not a good idea to sign the petitions, and not a good idea to vote in favor of keeping the name if either of the petitions is successful. 1 Quote
Chewey Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Proven fact is that people who are homophobic are in denial of their true sexuality. I like it even more now that it's offended you. You're certainly "phobic" about the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, I would venture. See my previous post about intellectual lethargy and creative oblivion which your latest hamfisted and trite missive exemplifies. Quote
ScottM Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 That pink sheep has inspired some of you ....................your welcome Actually, we're just applauding your choice of a lifemate. Quote
Fetch Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 It is good to get you aroused about something Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 It is good to get you aroused about something You seem to be the only one aroused by the pink sheep. Quote
ScottM Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 It is good to get you aroused about something You're the one posting the sheep pics ... but I don't judge consenting mammals ... Give my best to your "better half". Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 There are only two workable long-term solutions to this with UND Athletics thriving in the NCAA and the Big Sky: a) the path UND is on now, since 1/1/2012, or b) Spirit Lake wins in Federal court and they, SL, reinstate the name at UND and they, SL (not UND's administration), take all the heat and complaints about it. I can live with path a) while path b) plays out. Quote
Fetch Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 baaaaaa did someone give PCM a belly rub ? Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Same question to you Fetch: Where were you, what did you do, on August 5, 2005? Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 baaaaaaa Have you been bilingual for a long time, or did you learn a new language for your intended? Quote
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