Petitions

[The Sicatoka]

Gandhi? Mandella?

They were fighting against governmental oppression. This is not a government entity putting UND into this position.

The NCAA is a private entity making member rules, rules that may sound discriminatory, but private club rules just the same.

Don't believe that's legal in America?

Show me the females on this list.

Another?

Try being 16 years old and Jewish and joining the Knights of Columbus.

[Chewey]

"Immolating"? Bringing out the heavy imagery now. Probably more accurate that the NCAA will burn at the stake or crucify all not in line with its mercurial and illogical dictates

[ScottM]

Cliffs Notes for blog posts? I think 82may be on to something there. Gandhi Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, George Washington and Jesus would disagree with you.

Really? Somehow I think their concerns went beyond a team's moniker ... Why not trot out Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine while you're at it.

[The Sicatoka]

The Augusta golf club has never had any female members. If they had long standing female members for many years, going back multiple generations, and then changed the rules to excluide female members... then and only then would it be a valid comparison. It sickens me that some of you are trying to rationalize the NCAA and their "policy" that I view as a hate crime. We were a member in good standing for 80 years and all of a sudden they think they can change the rules? NO!!! They are out of line, and they must be put in their place. It's time to stop cowering and knock the bullies off their pedestal.

You missed it:

1. The Augusta / K of C comparisons were to point out private clubs can make discriminatory membership rules.

2. You never answered my hypothetical situation that would meet your "member has rules changed around them" scenario.

3. You may view the NCAA policy as a "hate crime", but until you're on the Federal bench your opinion doesn't mean squat. Sorry.

PS - For this single case I wish you were on the Federal bench hearing it. For just this case mind you. But my wishing that doesn't mean squat either.

[fightingsioux4life]

Of course you're going to dispute the credibility of that blog. It reported facts that refute the chicken little theory that you so desperately cling to for dear life.

YOU are the one "desperately clinging" to the 1 in a 1,000 chance that any of this will bring the name and logo back WITHOUT crippling sanctions. Pot-Kettle-Black anyone?

[yababy8]

So this is fake?

Darell1976, The question is not wether or not the BigSky is falling is a real or "fake" threat. The question is what is it worth to anyone to stand up for what is right no matter the cost.

And I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE how quickly people will cower in the face of a challenge.

Here is the deal;

We all acknowledge that fundamentally getting rid of the Sioux name is wrong, so it is only a question of "the fight vs the costs" right?

I do not believe that this is not worth fighting for. I weigh the following:

1. The history and significance of the Sioux name.

2. The reality of the name in college hockey. Ya know, the biggest sport following in North Dakota by a landslide. BTW much bigger than most comparable states enjoy.

3. The embarrassment to the world if we lose what we love. It is nothing less that humiliating. A question, what effect would it have on the future of New York City if its name was changed to something like, "The Force of the East". Hmmmm?

4. The risk that the big sky is going to dump us if we keep the name. This is IN NO WAY KNOWN. Even if it came to a vote, and to say it will is simply a speculation, would it pass?

5. Would the NCAA START to get bad publicity regarding their policy if you have a combination of Constitutional protection and Native America law suits? Very possible.

6. Can/would other nonconference school boycott our teams? There would be the possibility of law suits there. The NCAA agreement gives us the right to keep the name with conditions OUTLINED in the settlement. These conditions do not address member school boycotts. Any school that would enact policy against us would be doing so on their own accord and I believe would expose themselves to legal trouble if they schedule a school that has a native American name. ie Florida or Illinois. The lawsuit does not protect them.

7. If we refuse to give up then no matter the outcome we will always own the proud feeling that we as UND students, alumni, members of the Sioux nation and all other invested citizens did not cower in the face of threats and bullying. That we stood up for our convictions and for what we KNOW is right and most importantly for who we are and what we call ourselves.

8. Martyrdom is a better place that cowardice. Even in the unlikely event the schools athletics all go up in burning flames and NDSU (who gives a crap school) gets to be the predominant division one football force in North Dakota, we can all go USC for the Rose Bowl and watch the Bison beat Oklahoma and tell our grandkids about the history of the fighting Sioux and the fascists that stole it from us.

Way better that explaining the awesome story of how we became the Force of the East.. or whatever...

That is a good chunk of what I factor when I come to the conclusion that making the SIOUX name a law of North Dakota and forever blessing our citizenry with the gift of self determination and freedom with regard to what we call ourselves… Well that and the simple fact that it is the right thing to do.

[fightingsioux4life]

"Hey mom, what is the moral to the story?", asked little Timmy.

"What story is that", mom repled.

"You know the story written by ScottM and Sicatoca called The Big Sky is Falling" replied Timmy.

"Oh that one", exclaimed mother, "That is a story about how you, no matter how bad or wrong it is, should do whatever someone esle tells you to if they tell you they are going to hurt you if you don't."

"I've heard that story before", said little Timmy curiously.

"Where at", inquired mother.

"My teacher taught us about a big world war where a bunch a people did that.", answered little Timmy. He though for a moment or two and then added, "I thought bad things happened to them anyway?"...

This is really getting pathetic. The nickname-at-all-costs crowd can't counter with facts, so they are resorting to cute little bedtime stories, animal noises, colorful pictures of animals and fairy tales. I feel like I am trapped in a really bad version of Sesame Street. For Pete's Sake, bring some serious beef to the table or don't even bother trying anymore.

[Fetch]

[82SiouxGuy]

How can a label (the nickname and logo) be more important than what it represents(the school and athletic department)? How can a nickname be more important than the history, tradition and people of the program?

The history belongs to the program and the school, not to the nickname. The tradition belongs to the program and the school, not the nickname. If the nickname is the only thing that is important to you, go ahead and keep using it. Quit trying to damage the program and the school that the rest of us care about.

[fightingsioux4life]

You wants facts? Okay, here's a fact : Your submissive atttude is seriously contradicting your user name.

The truth hurts, doesn't it son? If anything, YOUR loyalty to the institution that I love is basically in shambles based on your myopic viewpoint of destroying UND athletics in order to save the name and logo. I will always consider myself a Fighting Sioux fan FOR LIFE!!! So my user name is not changing. Deal with it.

[yababy8]

Same with Jim Kleinsasser. Most everyone not associated with hockey look at UND as a whole not just a hockey team. This is the NCAA not the NHL. UND is football, basketball, volleyball etc. We are not UND the hockey only school.

Ya and the Hells Angels are not just about Harleys. I'm sure they hit the jet skis too.

[82SiouxGuy]

Ya and the Hells Angels are not just about Harleys. I'm sure they hit the jet skis too.

So the only things you care about are the nickname and the hockey team? Nothing else at UND matters to you? And probably in that order, nickname then hockey team? Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

[zonadub]

I disproved most of that blog a few days ago. You might want to try reading it. The highlights are that UND is not a full member of the Big Sky at this time no matter what the blog claims. The Big Sky bylaws state that a member has to be a full Division I member of the NCAA. UND is considered a Division II member transitioning to Division I. That will not change until July 1, 2012 at the earliest. I posted links to prove both of those facts.

An example that you might understand. We are going to elect a President in November. That person does not become President the day of the election, or even on the day the votes are counted. They are inaugurated in January. There are procedures that have to be followed before they can actually become President. When you join a conference you don't become a full member on the day it is announced or the day you sign the paperwork. Things need to be done. In this case, UND has to first become a true member of Division I. Also, UND has not completed paying the entry fee. That will be paid this summer after UND is qualified to become a member. I'm pretty sure that was spelled out in the contracts.

Back to the blog. People state that UND can't or won't be kicked out of the Big Sky. There is a mechanism in the bylaws to remove a school from the conference, so UND can be removed even when they are a full member. You are making an assumption when you say they won't be kicked out because no one can know that at this point. It is a dangerous assumption for someone to make considering the bad public relations that are associated with this issue right now. And if you assume they won't, but you're wrong and they do, would be a bad result for UND. That is not a good bet for a responsible person.

The myth that the Big Sky is a failing or floundering conference, and that they need UND more than UND needs them is outright laughable. The Big Sky is a very stable conference. They haven't lost anyone in the past decade. The last school they lost was Cal Northridge in 2001 when they dropped football. Boise State and Idaho left almost 16 years ago. Northern Colorado was a quality replacement for Northridge. And the Big Sky has 1 other full member and 2 football only members joining this summer without UND. So the Big Sky has plenty of members. Besides, with UND they have a strange number of members so it would actually be easier for scheduling to not have UND. (The travel distance and travel cost to UND is another reason to not have UND in the conference, but I won't persue that any further right now.)

People also bring up attendance at sporting events, and how UND would rank among the top schools in the conference in attendance. I'm not sure how that applies to this argument at all. I may be wrong, but I believe that the home school keeps the ticket revenue from a sporting event in conference play. When UND is at home they get the ticket money, and if they are traveling they don't. I suppose it's possible that there could be some kind of revenue sharing. But they don't just throw all of the ticket revenue into a big pot and split it evenly. So Eastern Washington isn't going to profit if UND sells out all of its games. Eastern Washington profits when they sell out their own games. That is why Montana and Montana State are important to the league, they attract fans to their away games. It isn't because Montana puts 25,000 people in the stands for a home football game. Tournaments are a different story. Revenues are split for a league tournament. But UND would only host a limited number those events. The conference isn't going to keep them just to sell a few more tickets to those events. And at this point UND isn't a big enough factor to attract large attendance at away games. UND fans would help, but would that be enough to overcome the increased travel expenses of having to bring teams to Grand Forks?

That is probably plenty for now. Dave, your blog had some facts in it, but they didn't use all of the facts. Therefore they came to some wrong conclusions. There is a real possibility that UND could lose its place in the Big Sky. No one but the Presidents of the conference schools knows what the chances are of that happening. But it is a real threat. And that is on top of the sanctions that the NCAA has in place that will also hurt UND Athletics.

anyone read all of that ?

Yes. and in case you didn't, here it is again, and I took the liberty of highlighting a few of the high points. 82 is spot on.

If anyone thinks that the Big Sky needs UND more than UND needs the Big Sky probably forgot that the Great West is folding and the Summit won't accept the Fighting Sioux either. FCS/Small-Mid Major DI independence is not the way to go. The Big Sky is a destination FCS/Mid Major conference. It is not a transitional conference like the Great West or a 'we hope we get invited to the Missouri Valley Conference' conference like the Summit. UND is very fortunate to have the opportunity to move to the Big Sky (not vice-versa), and despite the fact that the NCAA policy sucks, they are driving the bus.

Yes, at this point, the complaints from the Big Sky Conference seem to be coming from the fans & press of schools like Sacramento, but what would it take for the people who are in charge of those schools to decide its best to have an even number of schools in the conference. 10 and 12 are easier scheduling than 11 and 13. If you dispute that fact, I really wonder what your foundation for that rationale could possibly be. Also, please remember that the people who run those schools are cut from the same mold as the people who (1) run the NCAA, (2) voted for the Hostile & Abusive policy (even if it was Myles Brand's idea, they did endorse it), and (3) have considerable influence over who they schedule in future athletic events.

Personally, I think the Montana's and probably Northern Colorado would block UND's expulsion from the Big Sky, but can we be sure? What if the Montana's leave for the WAC, MWC or something else? (I think the Big East would welcome them with open arms if the Griz & Cats were so inclined. Again, don't think it will happen, but would have said the same thing about Boise & San Diego six months ago.)

By the way, DaveK, would you continue to follow and be a fan of the University of North Dakota Penguins?

... I like Pittsburgh because they're the Penguins. Hypothetically speaking, if the franchise relocated and kept the Penguins name I would still support them...

[fightingsioux4life]

The official logo of the nickname-at-all-costs crowd.

When the facts and the situation are unbearable, just pretend it will all go away.

Now, back to reality for the rest of us.

[fightingsioux4life]

You're obviously not a Fighting Sioux fan for life if you're so willing to just flush it down the toilet. You may be a UND fan, I'll give you that... but you're no fan of the Fighting Sioux. Keep your user name, I don't care if you look like a hypocrite. Just thought I'd point out the irony of you having the audacity to display an attitude that so blatantly disrespects the nickname while posting under that user name.

I am "willing" to do what it takes to keep UND strong both athletically and academically. YOU, on the other hand, are "willing" to "just flush (UND) down the toilet" to keep the name and logo. Nuking the athletic department just to save it is just plain stupid. We have fought this fight for six long years, but it's time to face facts and realize we can't do anything more. What is the point of having the name and logo without an athletic department to use it?

[yababy8]

So the only things you care about are the nickname and the hockey team? Nothing else at UND matters to you? And probably in that order, nickname then hockey team? Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

It's pretty simple 82, I care about NOT allowing the wrong thing to happen.

[yababy8]

Did I miss the part where a gun was to und's head that und has to be in the NCAA?

yes you did.

[82SiouxGuy]

I am "willing" to do what it takes to keep UND strong both athletically and academically. YOU, on the other hand, are "willing" to "just flush (UND) down the toilet" to keep the name and logo. Nuking the athletic department just to save it is just plain stupid. We have fought this fight for six long years, but it's time to face facts and realize we can't do anything more. What is the point of having the name and logo without an athletic department to use it?

Dave doesn't believe the athletic department is important. The only thing that matters is the nickname. In his mind, if the nickname goes away, then that athletic department doesn't exist any more and a different department would take its place. He has no allegiance to the "new" department.

[yababy8]

Really? Somehow I think their concerns went beyond a team's moniker ... Why not trot out Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine while you're at it.

I'm pretty sure they all didn't much care for the will of the people not being heard.

[82SiouxGuy]

It's pretty simple 82, I care about NOT allowing the wrong thing to happen.

The wrong thing would be to do something that would cause harm to the University or the Athletic Department. That would be the real wrong thing to happen.

How long have you been aware of the issues surrounding the Sioux nickname and logo?

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm pretty sure they all didn't much care for the will of the people not being heard.

Actually, they set up a representative form of government so that the people wouldn't be heard on every issue. They didn't believe that it would be an effective way to run a government. That is why we elect people to run the government. They are elected to do what they believe is in the best interests of the country, not what they think the people want to happen. Governing by public opinion is a bad way to do business.

[yababy8]

This is really getting pathetic. The nickname-at-all-costs crowd can't counter with facts, so they are resorting to cute little bedtime stories, animal noises, colorful pictures of animals and fairy tales. I feel like I am trapped in a really bad version of Sesame Street. For Pete's Sake, bring some serious beef to the table or don't even bother trying anymore.

So MR. Fightingsioux4life, when you say that we should drop the petitions because the laws could cause the Big Sky to dump UND, you are "countering with facts"? hmmmm?

or maybe the fact in that story touched you a little two close to home. After all, you are advocating that we should no longer fight against the NCAA because of what bad things might happen to us AND you do agree that changing the name is, without regard to said threats, the wrong thing to do, correct?

[RD17]

So MR. Fightingsioux4life, when you say that we should drop the petitions because the laws could cause the Big Sky to dump UND, you are "countering with facts"? hmmmm?

or maybe the fact in that story touched you a little two close to home. After all, you are advocating that we should no longer fight against the NCAA because of what bad things might happen to us AND you do agree that changing the name is, without regard to said threats, the wrong thing to do, correct?

I would advocate that only a fool would listen to anyone who believes that the "martyrdom" of an athletic program (as long as hockey isn't affected, of course ) is an acceptable outcome.

[yababy8]

The wrong thing would be to do something that would cause harm to the University or the Athletic Department. That would be the real wrong thing to happen.

How long have you been aware of the issues surrounding the Sioux nickname and logo?

close to 25 yrs. I used to argue with my best friends girlfriend who was a member of the UND student senate back in the early 90's when they voted to remove the blackhawk logo. She is a Sioux from Devils lake and related to Skip. Now she is a strong supporter of the Sioux name and very proud of it when she goes with all of us to SIOUX games in Colorado, we and thousands of other SIOUX FANS. Kind of like the 10s of thousands of Sioux Fans who I see at the Frozen Four. Most of who believe, like me, that the Sioux name is something pretty damn special and worth the fight accordingly. The Sioux name is NOT more important than the Athletic- as you say- "department". It is the identity of what the athletic department has produced over 80 years and that is what is the most important here.

...oh and did I mention it is the RIGHT THING TO DO?

[Chewey]

Really? Somehow I think their concerns went beyond a team's moniker ... Why not trot out Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine while you're at it.

Yes, why don't we? And, add Billy Jack to the mix too. It's the same sort of tyrannical thing and the difference is in degree and manifestation. It's opposition against an arrogance or a malevolent fixation on control which is entirely inscrutable except for how it is expressed with respect to "concerns" over the moniker and logo. It is the mentality of forcing one side to do something and threatening "consequences" otherwise.

Just how badly does one need to be mistreated and screwed to justify a protest? A wrong is a wrong and an injustice is an injustice. Yanking 80 + years of tradition away for no reason at all except that the NCAA has UND in its sights and wants to do it, is an injustice perpetrated by a monopolistic and unaccountable entity. To say that one is not going to advocate against an injustice simply because one perceives it as "petty" in the grand scope of things fosters an anarchic perspective in terms of determining which injustice is worthy of advocacy which essentially translates into preferential advocacy for only those issues or injustices for which payment is duly received or marketed effectively by lobbying groups or propagandized and distorted effectively.