Petitions

[Chewey]

Gandhi? Mandella?

They were fighting against governmental oppression. This is not a government entity putting UND into this position.

The NCAA is a private entity making member rules, rules that may sound discriminatory, but private club rules just the same.

Don't believe that's legal in America?

Show me the females on this list.

Another?

Try being 16 years old and Jewish and joining the Knights of Columbus.

Slight difference in that those groups do not hold the monopolistic financial sway or the state actor persona that the NCAA possesses.

[82SiouxGuy]

close to 25 yrs. I used to argue with my best friends girlfriend who was a member of the UND student senate back in the early 90's when they voted to remove the blackhawk logo. She is a Sioux from Devils lake and related to Skip. Now she is a strong supporter of the Sioux name and very proud of it when she goes with all of us to SIOUX games in Colorado, we and thousands of other SIOUX FANS. Kind of like the 10s of thousands of Sioux Fans who I see at the Frozen Four. Most of who believe, like me, that the Sioux name is something pretty damn special and worth the fight accordingly. The Sioux name is NOT more important than the Athletic- as you say- "department". It is the identity of what the athletic department has produced over 80 years and that is what is the most important here.

...oh and did I mention it is the RIGHT THING TO DO?

I asked because you often come across as someone who only noticed the issue in the last year or two. Someone that doesn't know any of the history.

Most of us here are people that believe the Sioux name is special. Many have been fans much longer than you. And it has been worth fighting for. But it stops being worth fighting for when that fight will start doing permanent damage to the University and the Athletic Department. That is the stage that many of us have reached. We believe the NCAA sanctions are going to damage the Athletic Department. It will cost the school money, recruits, success and more. Schools will refuse to schedule UND. Schools will also use these problems to take recruits away from UND. Losing recruits will mean lower quality teams and less wins. Less wins means fewer fans in the seats. That harm will cut across all sports eventually, even the hockey program. And this is only what the NCAA sanctions can do. The potential of what the Big Sky can do is a further threat.

Wanting to fight a wrong can be admirable. But there are limits. Being willing to kill what you say you care about would be one of those limits for me. The nickname issue was lost in all the years that UND failed to develop relationships with all the local tribes. It was lost when the NCAA implemented a ban and UND couldn't just say "Spirit Lake has given their approval, so we get the same exemption as Florida State". Remember, Spirit Lake didn't give approval until 2009. It was lost when the settlement was signed saying that the approval of both tribes was needed. Most people knew at the time of the settlement that the chances of Standing Rock giving approval were very slim. And it was officially lost when it became apparent that Standing Rock was not going to act by the settlement deadline.

Life isn't fair. Things happen that are wrong. You can't fight every wrong. And you aren't going to win every wrong you fight. Sometimes you have to give up a fight and move on to other issues.

[Chewey]

Did I miss the part where a gun was to und's head that und has to be in the NCAA?

Shh! It's actually much more nuanced than that and this is an entirely simplistic and myopic viewpoint concerning the issue. In 1982, no one held a gun to anyone's head who wanted to use a telephone and had to use Bell Telephone Co. A person back then could have used the mail or a telegraph, I suppose, or smoke signals. The NCAA is a monopoly and it is a monopoly that is arguably so interconnected and intertwined with publicly funded institutions and venues so as to be a theoretical state actor. That's a simplistic and knee-jerk response.

[Chewey]

I asked because you often come across as someone who only noticed the issue in the last year or two. Someone that doesn't know any of the history.

Most of us here are people that believe the Sioux name is special. Many have been fans much longer than you. And it has been worth fighting for. But it stops being worth fighting for when that fight will start doing permanent damage to the University and the Athletic Department. That is the stage that many of us have reached. We believe the NCAA sanctions are going to damage the Athletic Department. It will cost the school money, recruits, success and more. Schools will refuse to schedule UND. Schools will also use these problems to take recruits away from UND. Losing recruits will mean lower quality teams and less wins. Less wins means fewer fans in the seats. That harm will cut across all sports eventually, even the hockey program. And this is only what the NCAA sanctions can do. The potential of what the Big Sky can do is a further threat.

Wanting to fight a wrong can be admirable. But there are limits. Being willing to kill what you say you care about would be one of those limits for me. The nickname issue was lost in all the years that UND failed to develop relationships with all the local tribes. It was lost when the NCAA implemented a ban and UND couldn't just say "Spirit Lake has given their approval, so we get the same exemption as Florida State". Remember, Spirit Lake didn't give approval until 2009. It was lost when the settlement was signed saying that the approval of both tribes was needed. Most people knew at the time of the settlement that the chances of Standing Rock giving approval were very slim. And it was officially lost when it became apparent that Standing Rock was not going to act by the settlement deadline.

Life isn't fair. Things happen that are wrong. You can't fight every wrong. And you aren't going to win every wrong you fight. Sometimes you have to give up a fight and move on to other issues.

Astute points, to be sure. Perhaps you change tactics and rename the teams "Spirit Lake Fighting Sioux." Satisfies the surrender agreement in that the name is changed to something other than "Fighting Sioux". Satisfies the NCAA namesake tribe exception to its asinine policy. Satisfies most of the people because the tradition is still preserved, etc. Sounds like a win-win to me. Spirit Lake will be an ally. Case in point, one tribal council member was removed a month or two ago and Erich Longie really thought he had an ally in the Tribal Council only to be disappointed when the guy he thought was going to be his ally really was even a stronger supporter of the nickname than the tribal council member who had been removed. Sorry Erich......

[82SiouxGuy]

Slight difference in that those groups do not hold the monopolistic financial sway or the state actor persona that the NCAA possesses.

A private club can hold a similar financial sway over an individual in a small town. Being a member can make a huge difference on whether a person is successful or not. And I don't believe that any court has ever determined that the NCAA qualifies as a state actor.

[82SiouxGuy]

Astute points, to be sure. Perhaps you change tactics and rename the teams "Spirit Lake Fighting Sioux." Satisfies the surrender agreement in that the name is changed to something other than "Fighting Sioux". Satisfies the NCAA namesake tribe exception to its asinine policy. Satisfies most of the people because the tradition is still preserved, etc. Sounds like a win-win to me. Spirit Lake will be an ally. Case in point, one tribal council member was removed a month or two ago and Erich Longie really thought he had an ally in the Tribal Council only to be disappointed when the guy he thought was going to be his ally really was even a stronger supporter of the nickname than the tribal council member who had been removed. Sorry Erich......

I believe that the NCAA was asked about UND using the Spirit Lake Fighting Sioux, and they said that they would not accept that. The only Native American names that could be used were ones that were already in existence at the time of the NA policy, that were able to get tribal approval within the stated timeframe. Remember, they set up a specific schedule of when the tribe approvals were needed before the bans went into effect. UND did not meet the timeframe. Allowing UND to get around the policy in this way would allow other schools to do something similar. The NCAA does not want that to happen. The settlement states that either UND gets rid of the Native American name and imagery or it will be subject to the consequences. That's why I also believe that the NCAA would be unwilling to accept a change of opinion from Standing Rock at this time. They have their victory and they aren't going to willingly give up anything.

[homer]

It's pretty simple 82, I care about NOT allowing the wrong thing to happen.

Changing the name is so "wrong" that the goup of people we are "honoring" by having it have come out in groves to sign petitions and support the name. There are well over 30,000 Native Americans in North Dakota. If it is so "wrong" to change the name surely they would recognize this and overwhelmingly support this right?

[82SiouxGuy]

Fine. If they aren't going to give it up willingly we will have to take it by force. The NCAA doesn't know who they're messing with.

I'm pretty sure they know exactly who they're dealing with. And you plan to do this by force? The person that hates violence?

[homer]

As it has been this whole process since he started this mess, I have placed a number of e-mails and calls to Al Carlson to get his opinion on why he believes the law he put into action will benefit UND and UND athletics. As a resident in his Fargo district you would think he would be more than happy to get back to me and share his thoughts right? Have yet to hear from him. That alone tells me all I need to know about this petition and this law.

DaveK the guy who put the law into action and met with the NCAA to hear their stance obviously knows this will hurt UND, otherwise what does he have to be so quiet about and why ignore someone who voted him into office? Speaks volumes about his honesty. That and Bison fans' willingness to sign petitions tell me how much "good" this will bring to UND. Also, as I mentioned above, with a Native American population in the state of well over 30,000, getting 13,000 signitures from people so "honored" by the nickname should be easy. Right?

[Bison Dan]

As it has been this whole process since he started this mess, I have placed a number of e-mails and calls to Al Carlson to get his opinion on why he believes the law he put into action will benefit UND and UND athletics. As a resident in his Fargo district you would think he would be more than happy to get back to me and share his thoughts right? Have yet to hear from him. That alone tells me all I need to know about this petition and this law.

DaveK the guy who put the law into action and met with the NCAA to hear their stance obviously knows this will hurt UND, otherwise what does he have to be so quiet about and why ignore someone who voted him into office? Speaks volumes about his honesty. That and Bison fans' willingness to sign petitions tell me how much "good" this will bring to UND. Also, as I mentioned above, with a Native American population in the state of well over 30,000, getting 13,000 signitures from people so "honored" by the nickname should be easy. Right?

I doubt there is many NDSU fans running to sign this thing. If this thing goes through the minimum that would happen is: UND will stay on the !@#$ list at the NCAA. Regional schools will refuse to schedule you. No home playoff games in all sports. That's the least that will happen and if you can live with that so be it. Just remember those home fb games this year helped a lot to get us into the NC.

[homer]

I doubt there is many NDSU fans running to sign this thing. If this thing goes through the minimum that would happen is: UND will stay on the !@#$ list at the NCAA. Regional schools will refuse to schedule you. No home playoff games in all sports. That's the least that will happen and if you can live with that so be it. Just remember those home fb games this year helped a lot to get us into the NC.

Yes, we know the importance of home playoff games.

[Chewey]

"Right or wrong", UND athletics is handicapped if it is forced to readopt the Sioux moniker. And no about academic histrionics, petitions or state legislation will change that.

If the petititoners are serious about this, why are they not making this an election issue for the Members of Congress who are up for re-election this fall? Surely they can't be so stupid as to presume that some state law with no force outside of North Dakota's borders will convince the NC$$ to reconsider their position. Therefore, I can only presume this lack of courage on their part supports the premise they are really seeking to harm UND athletics.

"Right or wrong", UND athletics is handicapped if it is forced to readopt the Sioux moniker. And no about academic histrionics, petitions or state legislation will change that.

If the petititoners are serious about this, why are they not making this an election issue for the Members of Congress who are up for re-election this fall? Surely they can't be so stupid as to presume that some state law with no force outside of North Dakota's borders will convince the NC$$ to reconsider their position. Therefore, I can only presume this lack of courage on their part supports the premise they are really seeking to harm UND athletics.

They are and it may well become one. If 13,500 and 26,000 signatures on any petition in ND are obtained, the political weenies will be asked about it and will have to take a position on it. If Berg determines that the election with Heidi (I've been on the public dole for all of my professional life - yes, like Conrad Dorgan and Pomeroy) is going to be a close one, he'll be schmoozing big time. With any Democrat, the position is a foregone conclusion. If a Republican can make some "liberal elite"-style crap with it and characterize an opponent as being part of that crowd, you can bet that arrow will be pulled out of the quiver and used. Heidi is just uninformed, obtuse and lacks any kind of private sector perspective and follows the Democratic mantra in entirely knee-jerk fashion. No creativity in terms of defining or developing worthwhile public policy on ANYTHING and certainly possesses no semblance of an independent core that would inform any sound decision making capacity. In typical Republican fashion, Berg is a slippery and opportunistic weenie who is not above jumping on a bandwagon to get elected. But, at least he has some perspective when it comes to operating a business and making a payroll. If the election is close, you may see him pursue the issue that may have generated - by that time - 26,000 signatures.

[Fetch]

Quoting Fightingsiouxforlife

The official logo of the nickname-at-all-costs crowd.

When the facts and the situation are unbearable, just pretend it will all go away.

Now, back to reality for the rest of us.

-------------------------------------------------------

Here is the logo for rest of them

[yababy8]

Changing the name is so "wrong" that the goup of people we are "honoring" by having it have come out in groves to sign petitions and support the name. There are well over 30,000 Native Americans in North Dakota. If it is so "wrong" to change the name surely they would recognize this and overwhelmingly support this right?

you are correct that is why the spirit lake sioux voted overwhelmingly in support of the name.

oh and by the way did I mention the lawsuit, did state republicans do that 1 or was it a bum steer by those uninvested Spirit Lake people?

[fightingsioux4life]

Am I the only one who finds extreme irony in his choice of user name? His attitude certainly does not go along with the "4life" part of his user name, does it? His user name should be "fightingsiouxtillthencaatellsustochange".

That's really cute, Dave. You guys are persistent, I'll give you that much. But throwing mud on me and my reputation as a fan of this institution and everything in it won't help your cause at all. If anything, it just makes you look more and more desperate as you use hopeless tactics trying to save a name and logo that I (and many, many others on this forum) love instead of supporting the one action that has any chance of success (the Spirit Lake lawsuit against the abusive, monopolistic NCAA). The petition drives will achieve the same thing that "Clueless Al" Carlson's law did: N-O-T-H-I-N-G! The NCAA doesn't give a crap about what the State of North Dakota thinks about anything. Just look at what has happened to South Carolina with regards to the Confederate flag controversy. If the name and logo are enshrined into the state constitution, the NCAA might decide to penalize the ENTIRE STATE of North Dakota over this issue like they did in South Carolina. That will hurt ALL of our institutions, including the Ag College down in Fargo.

The only things the NCAA fears at all are 1) the Federal court system and 2) the Congress of the United States of America. Those two institutions can make life miserable for them. The State of North Dakota is like a mosquito buzzing in your ear while you try to golf 18 holes during one of our few nice summer days. A minor irritant, but nothing more.

[ScottM]

The only things the NCAA fears at all are 1) the Federal court system and 2) the Congress of the United States of America. Those two institutions can make life miserable for them. The State of North Dakota is like a mosquito buzzing in your ear while you try to golf 18 holes during one of our few nice summer days. A minor irritant, but nothing more.

Don't confuse these guys with facts. They don't give a damn about the university, but only about its discarded moniker.

[darell1976]

What is the point of having an athletic department without the name and logo that we have all come to know and love over the span of a lifetime? Agree to disagree, but your attitude eliminates the "4life" part right out of your user name. That much you can't possibly argue with.

So in 1991 Grand Forks Central should have told the NDHSAA we are not going to fund a hockey team who has more state titles in ND...a football team, basketball team, etc. because the GF City Council took away our beloved Redskins nickname and logo that was there since probably the 1940's or 50's. My parents were Redskins, my brothers were Redskins, and me I was the last of the Redskins. It was changed the summer of 1991 I was just starting my sophomore year that fall. It hurt when they took that name away, and in a way it still hurts 21 years this summer. But I have accepted the Knights name...why? Because its the words in front of the nickname I love...GRAND FORKS CENTRAL!!!! That is all that matters not just Knights, not Redskins, not Maroon and Grey....but GFC!!!! When UND lost the NCAA battle it hurt to see everything transition to just UND but in the end everyone will accept the teams..why? Because of the words NORTH DAKOTA in front of whatever nickname there is.

[forumcrew]

You guys realize that DaveK is not an alum. of UND, right?

[yababy8]

That's really cute, Dave. Just look at what has happened to South Carolina with regards to the Confederate flag controversy. If the name and logo are enshrined into the state constitution, the NCAA might decide to penalize the ENTIRE STATE of North Dakota over this issue like they did in South Carolina. That will hurt ALL of our institutions, including the Ag College down in Fargo.

The only things the NCAA fears at all are 1) the Federal court system and 2) the Congress of the United States of America. Those two institutions can make life miserable for them. The State of North Dakota is like a mosquito buzzing in your ear while you try to golf 18 holes during one of our few nice summer days. A minor irritant, but nothing more.

That's real cute ScottM, Claim an apples to oranges comparison is a fact huh? I'm sure if we checked the facts we would find out that the South Carolina African American people filed a law suit against the NCAA right?

FightingSioux4life blatantly ignores that stark contrast in his reckless comparison of South Carolina and us. A contrast that has become central to this issue. i.e. the people that the NCAA conceitedly purported to wish to protect are SCREAMING for someone/anyone to hear what they are saying... "WE ARE PROUD OF THE NAME!!!"

I say we hear them and we do what is right, and yes, ScottM, FightingSioux4life, and 82Sioux, we should expose our "athletic department" to risk to do it. Why?, because it is the goddam right thing to do. So quit being such sheep and cowards and support a true.. TRUE fight against the NCAA. (and I'm sorry sicatoka, you blogging about public actors years ago is not fighting. Not anymore than me blogging years ago about the true value of the Sioux name to North Dakota on this forum or the freedom of speech aspect or me asserting that the constitution of the state should be ammended years ago on here before anyone else did.) Changing the contitution, now that is a fight. What Spririt Lake is doing, now that is a fight. Demanding that the media cover this correctly, that would be a fight. Its worth the fight! For Pete's sake, it's in our name!

[fightingsioux4life]

That's real cute ScottM, Claim an apples to oranges comparison is a fact huh? I'm sure if we checked the facts we would find out that the South Carolina African American people filed a law suit against the NCAA right?

FightingSioux4life blatantly ignores that stark contrast in his reckless comparison of South Carolina and us. A contrast that has become central to this issue. i.e. the people that the NCAA conceitedly purported to wish to protect are SCREAMING for someone/anyone to hear what they are saying... "WE ARE PROUD OF THE NAME!!!"

I say we hear them and we do what is right, and yes, ScottM, FightingSioux4life, and 82Sioux, we should expose our "athletic department" to risk to do it. Why?, because it is the goddam right thing to do. So quit being such sheep and cowards and support a true.. TRUE fight against the NCAA. (and I'm sorry sicatoka, you blogging about public actors years ago is not fighting. Not anymore than me blogging years ago about the true value of the Sioux name to North Dakota on this forum or the freedom of speech aspect or me asserting that the constitution of the state should be ammended years ago on here before anyone else did.) Changing the contitution, now that is a fight. What Spririt Lake is doing, now that is a fight. Demanding that the media cover this correctly, that would be a fight. Its worth the fight! For Pete's sake, it's in our name!

The reasons for the NCAA sanctions against South Carolina may be different, but the effects on North Dakota would be the same.....devastating. Except in the fantasy world you and others have chosen to inhabit. Just keep it up and you'll get your wish. An institution without athletics, severely disadvantaged in recruiting and retaining the best students and a shadow of it's former self. But I am sure you will respond with more of this......

Oh well, whatever makes you happy.

[82SiouxGuy]

That's real cute ScottM, Claim an apples to oranges comparison is a fact huh? I'm sure if we checked the facts we would find out that the South Carolina African American people filed a law suit against the NCAA right?

FightingSioux4life blatantly ignores that stark contrast in his reckless comparison of South Carolina and us. A contrast that has become central to this issue. i.e. the people that the NCAA conceitedly purported to wish to protect are SCREAMING for someone/anyone to hear what they are saying... "WE ARE PROUD OF THE NAME!!!"

I say we hear them and we do what is right, and yes, ScottM, FightingSioux4life, and 82Sioux, we should expose our "athletic department" to risk to do it. Why?, because it is the goddam right thing to do. So quit being such sheep and cowards and support a true.. TRUE fight against the NCAA. (and I'm sorry sicatoka, you blogging about public actors years ago is not fighting. Not anymore than me blogging years ago about the true value of the Sioux name to North Dakota on this forum or the freedom of speech aspect or me asserting that the constitution of the state should be ammended years ago on here before anyone else did.) Changing the contitution, now that is a fight. What Spririt Lake is doing, now that is a fight. Demanding that the media cover this correctly, that would be a fight. Its worth the fight! For Pete's sake, it's in our name!

The Constitutional amendment doesn't help any fight against the NCAA. They are going to treat it just the way they did the law. And they can because it doesn't affect their operation and can't be used against them in a court of law. The media and the public around the country are going to treat things just the way they did the law. They are basically going to ignore the situation. It has no meaning to them. And it never will. This is all about what is best for the institution of higher learning, not what is most popular with the people of North Dakota. Laws should never be about what is popular, they should be about what is best for the population or for a specific segment of the population. Let the Spirit Lake case happen. If they win, great. If they don't, then we haven't damaged the University in the process.

[82SiouxGuy]

You guys realize that DaveK is not an alum. of UND, right?

Yes, we do. And I'm pretty sure that you aren't either.

[darell1976]

You guys realize that DaveK is not an alum. of UND, right?

I am not a UND alumn either..what's your point?

[ScottM]

That's real cute ScottM, Claim an apples to oranges comparison is a fact huh? I'm sure if we checked the facts we would find out that the South Carolina African American people filed a law suit against the NCAA right?

FightingSioux4life blatantly ignores that stark contrast in his reckless comparison of South Carolina and us. A contrast that has become central to this issue. i.e. the people that the NCAA conceitedly purported to wish to protect are SCREAMING for someone/anyone to hear what they are saying... "WE ARE PROUD OF THE NAME!!!"

I say we hear them and we do what is right, and yes, ScottM, FightingSioux4life, and 82Sioux, we should expose our "athletic department" to risk to do it. Why?, because it is the goddam right thing to do. So quit being such sheep and cowards and support a true.. TRUE fight against the NCAA. (and I'm sorry sicatoka, you blogging about public actors years ago is not fighting. Not anymore than me blogging years ago about the true value of the Sioux name to North Dakota on this forum or the freedom of speech aspect or me asserting that the constitution of the state should be ammended years ago on here before anyone else did.) Changing the contitution, now that is a fight. What Spririt Lake is doing, now that is a fight. Demanding that the media cover this correctly, that would be a fight. Its worth the fight! For Pete's sake, it's in our name!

I'd respond to your idotic rants directly if you had the common sense to actually quote something I wrote.

As a practical matter, I've been in this fight for over two decades since the time Kendal Baker tried to drop the name over a summer session. Where the !@#$ were you, and the rest of your crying homies, including Spirt Lake?

Moreover, as has been more than adequately established, North Dakota doesn't apply outside its borders, why are the petitioners NOT making this an election year issue for North Dakota's congressional delegation? If they were truly serious about politicizing it they'd move for federal action. Their lack of action in that regard leads me to believe that the current roster of moniker supporters and petition signees are only out to hamstring UND.

Put your f***ing money and votes where your big mouths are.

[forumcrew]

I am not a UND alumn either..what's your point?

You don't really have a stake in anything then, you are an outsider looking in trying to comment about someone's Alma Mater. In my opinion, you have no idea what people are even talking about here, just because you watch a few sporting events doesn't make you an expert. You 2 guys are complete idiots. I don't get what is so hard to understand here, if all these idiots get their way and the nickname sticks, UND will be sanctioned. No home playoff games, not to mention, my personal belief is there is an 80% or more chance of getting kicked out of the BSC. More drama, more fooling. Nickname supporters have their head up their *ss at this point in the game. To the 2 non-college graduates, DaveK and Darell, go to college.