Pulling Scholarships?

[SIOUXFAN97]

It's pretty obvious that the Sioux need a few big guys to compete in the Big Sky....Problem is a lot of scholarships are being used up on the sophomore class. Does Coach Jones pull scholarships from Archer, Stockdale, or anyone else and try to get some guys with some size instead. Also, can't you find someone from the football team or something to be a practice player/reserve instead of Mathison? Just wondering how this would go down if Jones does this or does stick with them like he did with Monsebroten? I think Jones still knows that his leash is somewhat short or else he wouldn't have played two true freshman....so hopefully he keeps the ball rolling for 2012.

Just wondering....

[Cratter]

Does Coach Jones pull scholarships from Archer, Stockdale, or anyone else and try to get some guys with some size instead.

Just wondering....

What do you think? What would you do?

[Homeguy]

Stockdale is a walk-on. But I do agree that it seems quite unlikely that all five scholarship sophs will return. If a kid is even remotely healthy and isn't playing in his third year in the program...his future with the program would seem to be in doubt IMO.

If a kid is on an academic scholarship and doesn't earn a high enough GPA, I assume the scholarship isn't renewed. If he or she is on an athletic scholarship and doesn't make enough progress after a couple of years so that he/she is contributing on the field/court/ice, I suspect the same fate may be in order.

This issue tends to elicit some pretty strong opinions, and I know not everybody agrees with this point of view, but I really don't think there's any obligation to renew a scholarship for a kid who simply isn't good enough to play at this level.

Pulling a student athlete's scholarship who is doing everything asked of them is a very unethical.

An athletic scholarship is awarded on a year to year basis. It may be revoked during that time due to failure to perfom academically, breaking team/institutional rules but not for injury or a lack of athletic performance. If the athlete is notified that they will not have the scholarship renewed for the next year they have the right to a hearing by a panel not controlled by the athletic department.

If a student athlete decides to fight then they can make a good case for themselves, especially if the coach has no documentation showing counseling and performance objectives along with personal improvement plans. Many student athletes in my experience do not want to fight for the scholarship as they feel unwanted and a hostile environment has been created for them at the institution. Additionally, they have often given up other opportunities offered by other schools and getting another award can be difficult depending on when they are notified of the nonrenewal.

Pulling a scholarship from a player (for performance) shows that a coach is not a good evaluator of talent and/or a poor developer of talent. This is not something they want on their resume or as a part of their evaluation. This is also a public relations problem for the coach and program as former players can undermine recruiting efforts if they have been dumped. With the proliferation of social networking it is even more harmful for a coach to runoff a player or pull their scholarship.

Per the NCAA Manual:

15.3.2.4 Hearing Opportunity. The institution

[bincitysioux]

I don't know all of the details that surround how a college basketball program and scholarships are run and such, but personally, I'd think it is unlikely that North Dakota is in a position to be "pulling" scholarships from players. There has been alot of debate over the last year over the progression of this year's redshirt sophomore class....................if anything happens as far as one or some of those players not returning, I think it will come down to the players' choice, not the coaching staff's decision..........I think we are obviously speaking of Goodman and Archer..................both are not from this area, have been hampered by injuries, and have seen dwindling playing time when they are healthy. If one, or both of them expressed to the staff that they wished to pursue other options, I doubt that Jone's and Co. would set much if any obstacles in their way..............on the other hand, I also really doubt that this coaching staff will ask anyone to leave the program.........

[CAS4127]

I don't know all of the details that surround how a college basketball program and scholarships are run and such, but personally, I'd think it is unlikely that North Dakota is in a position to be "pulling" scholarships from players. There has been alot of debate over the last year over the progression of this year's redshirt sophomore class....................if anything happens as far as one or some of those players not returning, I think it will come down to the players' choice, not the coaching staff's decision..........I think we are obviously speaking of Goodman and Archer..................both are not from this area, have been hampered by injuries, and have seen dwindling playing time when they are healthy. If one, or both of them expressed to the staff that they wished to pursue other options, I doubt that Jone's and Co. would set much if any obstacles in their way..............on the other hand, I also really doubt that this coaching staff will ask anyone to leave the program.........

Pulling schollies happens more than people think. When you see someone deciding to transfer, for example, the underpinnings of it are more likely than not that a scholly, whether full or otherwise, has been pulled.

[UND92,96]

It sounds like UND is actively recruiting one or more junior college players for the last currently available scholarship. So assuming a juco transfer is brought in, and nobody leaves from the current red-shirt sophomore class, that would mean that 46% (6/13) of the scholarships for next year would be accounted for by one class. And barring one of the current starters being demoted, getting injured or leaving early, none of next year's juniors is likely to start, and realistically three or even four of them may not even be in the regular rotation. Regardless of whose fault it is, such a situation would really seem to hamstring the program for the next two years.

I think the classes will be evened out to some degree. Exactly how that might happen is an open question, but it seems like a fairly strong possibility that it will happen.

[star2city]

As reported in an earlier thread, Mathison and Stockdale are walk ons.

[SIOUXFAN97]

As reported in an earlier thread, Mathison and Stockdale are walk ons.

I knew Mathison was a walk-on but I was unsure about Stockdale...

[Dagger]

Most players probably want to find a different school when they realize they aren't going to be getting any minutes or very few. It usually works it self out. Sometimes coaches hint or plant the seed that realistically the player isn't going to be part of the picture. It can be done tactfully. If a coach didn't make some decisions sometimes he would be out a job and you would have some very unplayers. It is usually best for everyone involved.

[sioux2013]

I believe the red shirt sophomore class has only 5 scholarship players not 6. Goodman, Wilmer, Archer, Haugen and Allard. Allard and Goodman(prior to injury) are the only ones that have contributed this year. Regardless of the situation I believe it would be hard to pull a scholarship from a player that has put in the work and time and has done what has been asked in practice and the classroom. All D1 schools have 13 scholarship players on their rosters but only use a rotation of 7-8 players. You can never tell how a high school player is going to do at the next level and thus miss on several players each year. Go Sioux

[The Sicatoka]

Contrary to what some may tell you, athletic "grants-in-aid" (also known as scholarships) are a one year arrangement.

If you have four years on athletic scholarship you have four one-year agreements, not one four-year agreement.

[UND92,96]

I believe the red shirt sophomore class has only 5 scholarship players not 6. Goodman, Wilmer, Archer, Haugen and Allard. Allard and Goodman(prior to injury) are the only ones that have contributed this year. Regardless of the situation I believe it would be hard to pull a scholarship from a player that has put in the work and time and has done what has been asked in practice and the classroom. All D1 schools have 13 scholarship players on their rosters but only use a rotation of 7-8 players. You can never tell how a high school player is going to do at the next level and thus miss on several players each year. Go Sioux

I used the 6/13 ratio assuming a juco transfer is brought in, as it sounds like that is the direction the staff is leaning for the 13th scholarship.

It's a tough situation. On the one hand, I agree that it's difficult to not renew a scholarship based solely on lack of progress on the court if the kid has tried hard and has met all expectations in the classroom. But on the other hand, it's not exactly fair to the current freshmen if they're not given the help they need to make contending for a Big Sky title attainable because there are three or four scholarships being used by upperclassmen who aren't capable of playing at the dI level.

We really need to hope that there are no recruiting "misses" in the next two classes, because there is almost no margin for error at present if all the red-shirt sophomores stick around for two more years on scholarship (unless a couple of them improve tremendously).

[sioux2013]

I used the 6/13 ratio assuming a juco transfer is brought in, as it sounds like that is the direction the staff is leaning for the 13th scholarship.

It's a tough situation. On the one hand, I agree that it's difficult to not renew a scholarship based solely on lack of progress on the court if the kid has tried hard and has met all expectations in the classroom. But on the other hand, it's not exactly fair to the current freshmen if they're not given the help they need to make contending for a Big Sky title attainable because there are three or four scholarships being used by upperclassmen who aren't capable of playing at the dI level.

We really need to hope that there are no recruiting "misses" in the next two classes, because there is almost no margin for error at present if all the red-shirt sophomores stick around for two more years on scholarship.

Agree with what you said. Also, this freshmen class must work hard and improve. There is room for improvement in each and everyone of these freshmen players and as for the sophomore class the decision will have to made by them cause I dont believe the coaches will pull the scholarship. Do they want to just be a part of the team for 2 more years with little playing time or do they want to persue another school where they can play. If it were me I would want to play and not ride the bench. I just hope we dont sign another guard without getting a BIG body underneath for the Big Sky. Go Sioux

[UND Fan]

I just hope all the freshmen are keeping their grades up - difficult to do without the redshift year to adjust to college, etc. All the travel and being away from the classroom scares me. It would really be bad to lose one of these kids!

[sioux2013]

Been reading alot on espn and other places about players transferring schools. Any word if any of our players are making a move? Go Sioux

[WYOBISONMAN]

Pulling scholarships is a slippery slope. It gives your program a reputation that may make it difficult to recruit.

[coach daddy]

Pulling scholarships is a slippery slope. It gives your program a reputation that may make it difficult to recruit.

Its also really not that necessary to pull scholarships. A the DI level you have 12 fulls in men's bball. You are either a walk-on or a scholarship athlete. If you get academic aid, it counts against the athletic aid. The reason I say scholarships don't need to be pulled is because most coaches never use all 12. They work with 9 or 10 as much as they can. Most coaches only have a rotation of 7-8 players so you make sure you have 8 that can play and give a couple more academic aid and away you go. Some walk-on with no money attached or they get big pell grant money based on the family income; you're set.

If a kid can't play, you tell him straight up and he looks for another school. Very few men's bball players stay enrolled at a school after the coach tells them they can't play. The kid wants to play, thinks the coach is wrong, and finds another school. Just be honest with them and they'll move on on their own.

[sioux2013]

Its also really not that necessary to pull scholarships. A the DI level you have 12 fulls in men's bball. You are either a walk-on or a scholarship athlete. If you get academic aid, it counts against the athletic aid. The reason I say scholarships don't need to be pulled is because most coaches never use all 12. They work with 9 or 10 as much as they can. Most coaches only have a rotation of 7-8 players so you make sure you have 8 that can play and give a couple more academic aid and away you go. Some walk-on with no money attached or they get big pell grant money based on the family income; you're set.

If a kid can't play, you tell him straight up and he looks for another school. Very few men's bball players stay enrolled at a school after the coach tells them they can't play. The kid wants to play, thinks the coach is wrong, and finds another school. Just be honest with them and they'll move on on their own.

Actually at the D1 level you have 13 full scholarships(not 12). Of our 15 players only Mathison and Stockdale are not on scholarships. Agree with everything else you posted as I have basically said the same thing. Thats why my last question was has anybody left the program since I assume the coaches have talked to everyone. Dont believe the coaches will pull anybody's scholarship. They all appear to be hard working players, but usually only 7-9 play.

[coach daddy]

Actually at the D1 level you have 13 full scholarships(not 12). Of our 15 players only Mathison and Stockdale are not on scholarships. Agree with everything else you posted as I have basically said the same thing. Thats why my last question was has anybody left the program since I assume the coaches have talked to everyone. Dont believe the coaches will pull anybody's scholarship. They all appear to be hard working players, but usually only 7-9 play.

Do you believe there are 13 on bball scholarships or scholarships in general? I can't imagine they'd use all 13 during the transition period,

[sioux2013]

Do you believe there are 13 on bball scholarships or scholarships in general? I can't imagine they'd use all 13 during the transition period,

Yes, I believe all 13 are being used. In basketball you cant use partial scholarships like in other sports. They are all full scholarships. This current year we have 2 full scholarships to fill. One going to Gentry (Benton will be a walk on based on whats being said) and the other still too be determined. We have 5 full scholarships to the sophomore class and 5 full scholarships to our freshmen class. If nothing changes we will only have one scholarship to be offered after this next season and if Benton is given a scholarship after this year then none will be available, so what we have now will not change until the sophomore class graduates. Go Sioux

[UND Fan]

Yes, I believe all 13 are being used. In basketball you cant use partial scholarships like in other sports. They are all full scholarships. This current year we have 2 full scholarships to fill. One going to Gentry (Benton will be a walk on based on whats being said) and the other still too be determined. We have 5 full scholarships to the sophomore class and 5 full scholarships to our freshmen class. If nothing changes we will only have one scholarship to be offered after this next season and if Benton is given a scholarship after this year then none will be available, so what we have now will not change until the sophomore class graduates. Go Sioux

I believe you are correct except for one comment. You can have a maximum of 13 players on scholarship; however, they do not need to be full rides. For one reason or another, a coach may elect to provide a player with less than one full ride. An example of when this may happen: One of your 13 scholarship players unexpectedly is does not show up for school in the fall. A coach may use some of this $ to assist a walk-on with books or more.

[UND92,96]

Hypothetically speaking, would you draw a distinction between the non-renewal of a scholarship during a player's first four years, and not inviting a red shirt senior-to-be back for a fifth year on scholarship? Or do you think that the two situations are essentially identical?

[The Sicatoka]

Scholarships are one-year arrangements (contrary to what some will try to tell you). Did they earn it for their second year? Did they earn it for their third year? Did they earn it for their fourth year? Did they earn it for their fifth year? I think that's the same question in each case.

[sioux2013]

Hypothetically speaking, would you draw a distinction between the non-renewal of a scholarship during a player's first four years, and not inviting a red shirt senior-to-be back for a fifth year on scholarship? Or do you think that the two situations are essentially identical?

Based on what you need and the players performance I would say they are essentially identical. In our case we have 5 players that will be 5th year seniors next year and basically have done nothing except Goodman and Allard the past 2 years. Goodman has not done much due to injuries but once healthy he will be a big contributer. We need a big man to back up Brekke in the worst way and Archer and Wilmer have scored less than a 100 pts comibined in this being their 3rd year. Again both have had alot of injuries. In our case if scholarships are going to be pulled it appears it would come from this class. With that being said and to answer your question I would pull a younger player just as quick if he is not performing. I dont see that with us however.

[UND92,96]

Scholarships are one-year arrangements (contrary to what some will try to tell you). Did they earn it for their second year? Did they earn it for their third year? Did they earn it for their fourth year? Did they earn it for their fifth year? I think that's the same question in each case.

That's true, but although a coach is technically justified in non-renewing a scholarship for almost any reason, there are going to be some who will cry foul if the non-renewal is due to simply not being a very good player. I'm just curious whether those same people feel that the fact that a kid red shirted means that he/she is guaranteed a fifth year so long as there are no academic or behavioral issues? As somebody who donates money for scholarships, frankly I don't like the idea of funding a fifth year for a kid who isn't contributing on the court, but I'm open-minded enough to see the other side of the argument, as well.