Alerus Center

[Local Boy]

I started a new Alerus topic because the last one was labeled "Alerus Center Posts a Profit". Time has revealed this to be untrue; search "secret subsidies".

So, any interest in an Alerus Center discussion? The property appears to be at an all time low, if that's possible. The arena side is virtually closed with barely any dates on the books. And, contrary to Herald reports, the convention side performance is miserable, also. The Alerus Commission and City Council refuse to accept that, under its current operating structure, it is a major failure. The future and operations of the center need to be retooled to realize any success.

Why are the commission and council so averse to changes?

What would a retooling look like?

A search of my prior posts under the "Profit" thread will reveal I've proposed changes and am simply not a "naysayer".

Ironically, I believe The Alerus can turn things around for the better by structuring the center similar to how the old Civic Auditorium was structured.

It simple terms, The Alerus is structured and operated under the assumption that it exists in a much larger market. This is at the heart of the failure. It has been almost 10 years of failure, time to try something else. Does anyone agree?

Is The Alerus Center so averse to change because the small handful of Alerus supporters that conceived of the failed development would have to admit failure?

The Alerus is there and not going away. Time to structure and scale its operating plan to the market, not the previously mentioned pretend market.

Any thoughts?

[BIGSIOUX]

I started a new Alerus topic because the last one was labeled "Alerus Center Posts a Profit". Time has revealed this to be untrue; search "secret subsidies".

So, any interest in an Alerus Center discussion? The property appears to be at an all time low, if that's possible. The arena side is virtually closed with barely any dates on the books. And, contrary to Herald reports, the convention side performance is miserable, also. The Alerus Commission and City Council refuse to accept that, under its current operating structure, it is a major failure. The future and operations of the center need to be retooled to realize any success.

Why are the commission and council so averse to changes?

What would a retooling look like?

A search of my prior posts under the "Profit" thread will reveal I've proposed changes and am simply not a "naysayer".

Ironically, I believe The Alerus can turn things around for the better by structuring the center similar to how the old Civic Auditorium was structured.

It simple terms, The Alerus is structured and operated under the assumption that it exists in a much larger market. This is at the heart of the failure. It has been almost 10 years of failure, time to try something else. Does anyone agree?

Is The Alerus Center so averse to change because the small handful of Alerus supporters that conceived of the failed development would have to admit failure?

The Alerus is there and not going away. Time to structure and scale its operating plan to the market, not the previously mentioned pretend market.

Any thoughts?

I think you need to find something else to worry about.

Just my thoughts.

[star2city]

I started a new Alerus topic because the last one was labeled "Alerus Center Posts a Profit". Time has revealed this to be untrue; search "secret subsidies".

So, any interest in an Alerus Center discussion? The property appears to be at an all time low, if that's possible. The arena side is virtually closed with barely any dates on the books. And, contrary to Herald reports, the convention side performance is miserable, also. The Alerus Commission and City Council refuse to accept that, under its current operating structure, it is a major failure. The future and operations of the center need to be retooled to realize any success.

Why are the commission and council so averse to changes?

What would a retooling look like?

A search of my prior posts under the "Profit" thread will reveal I've proposed changes and am simply not a "naysayer".

Ironically, I believe The Alerus can turn things around for the better by structuring the center similar to how the old Civic Auditorium was structured.

It simple terms, The Alerus is structured and operated under the assumption that it exists in a much larger market. This is at the heart of the failure. It has been almost 10 years of failure, time to try something else. Does anyone agree?

Is The Alerus Center so averse to change because the small handful of Alerus supporters that conceived of the failed development would have to admit failure?

The Alerus is there and not going away. Time to structure and scale its operating plan to the market, not the previously mentioned pretend market.

Any thoughts?

Co-locate the Wellness Center and Library on the same property. The Alerus issue - including development - is one that all local government should tackle, so that taxes go down. The City Council, Park Board, and School Board do not coordinate growth in the city whatsoever, and is tragic. Co-locating is basic development 101 and seems totally foreign to city leaders except for those on the Park Board, including a voting member/employee with a clear conflict of interest that did not recluse something from voting, who will help line a private developers' pocket.

By locating those two properties at or near the Alerus, the Alerus area would receive much more traffic, a nearby Wellness Center improves the Alerus' capability to attract conferences and conventions, and the improved traffic would increase likelihood of commercial development on 42nd. It's a win-win-win for everybody, but the other government bodies seemingly refuse to cooperate with each other for the greater good.

[the green team]

I certainly think that the Alerus business wise, and customer service wise needs to improve. But, even though I don't go to much at the Alerus other than Football and Taste of the Holiday's---which is great by the way. I'm not as negative about it as some in this community. It seems to be an easy target for some though. why? I've been out out on the town when we have events and I see full restaurants, lots of people in mall or other shopping areas, when things are happening there-things get going commerce wise to another degree...again from what I've seen. Some business are going to benefit more than others. I ran into a business guy and he said he doesn't see any increased business when there are events, but then I asked what business he was in....(and this isn't it, but it's along the same lines, I do this for a persons anonimity) but they said they sold sewing machines--in that sense I can see that the Alerus may not have an effect on that business on Alerus Event days, but I can also see commerce taking place to another degree at other places when there are events at the Alerus.

[The Sicatoka]

... customer service wise needs to improve.

Yup.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

On a positive note, the Alerus Center looks much better on the outside, and I've heard they have replaced the horrible carpet on the inside in the convention area. So, even if it is sitting empty, at least it looks nicer doing so.

[Risky]

I am sure Local Boy wouldn't be happy with the Alerus whether it was doing good or bad.. He is so negative about the issue he would never give it a chance. He way to much emotional baggage on the Alerus to ever give it a fair chance.

[Local Boy]

Star...coordination? Do you know that The Alerus Commission isn't even playing nice with The Canad Inn? It's unbelievable. Remember when the commission's mantra was build a hotel and all will be fine. Well, the hotel is there and still the convention side is a failure.

Green...you're referring to the cost/benefit of the center. Because of the hanky panky played in the past by The Alerus Commission, City Council, and The Herald, it's very difficult for casual observes to understand the true costs in relation to the benefit.

BIGSIOUX...I get it. You're a joker, huh?

[SiouxMeNow]

Star...coordination? Do you know that The Alerus Commission isn't even playing nice with The Canad Inn? It's unbelievable. Remember when the commission's mantra was build a hotel and all will be fine. Well, the hotel is there and still the convention side is a failure.

Green...you're referring to the cost/benefit of the center. Because of the hanky panky played in the past by The Alerus Commission, City Council, and The Herald, it's very difficult for casual observes to understand the true costs in relation to the benefit.

BIGSIOUX...I get it. You're a joker, huh?

BULLSH*T! So please tell us what YOUR real interest is LB since you choose you base the majority of your average of your 28 posts A YEAR on this board against the Alerus??? What's the REAL beef or do other issues of living in RiverCity just not interest you? From everything I know - the Canad is VERY HAPPY with their situation...prove anything different! ANYONE can go on a message board and say whatever they want. I know what I see at the Canad - full parking lots...busy restaurants....EXPANDING marketing opportunities with UND football on saturdays...things are going just fine - YOU PROVE different! With real facts...not just what you "think" because you're flat-out wrong about most of this.

[siouxperseven]

BULLSH*T! So please tell us what YOUR real interest is LB since you choose you base the majority of your average of your 28 posts A YEAR on this board against the Alerus??? What's the REAL beef or do other issues of living in RiverCity just not interest you? From everything I know - the Canad is VERY HAPPY with their situation...prove anything different! ANYONE can go on a message board and say whatever they want. I know what I see at the Canad - full parking lots...busy restaurants....EXPANDING marketing opportunities with UND football on saturdays...things are going just fine - YOU PROVE different! With real facts...not just what you "think" because you're flat-out wrong about most of this.

I'm going to have to disagree on a small point here....the parking lots are not full..I live across the street and it's not that busy at this time of year. However...wait another month and the small hang out bars will be fuller and when hockey gets going it'll be in motion. The Canad has an emotional feeling around here...some against and some for...I'm neutral. My only beef is the kept bringing it back to the voters until it was approved. If we voted against it...then so be it...move on. But for me personally I like the Canad and the small bars in their. Very sociable place. Now...lets have them do something about the cost of using the slide and pool if your a resident!!

[UND Fan]

I'm going to have to disagree on a small point here....the parking lots are not full..I live across the street and it's not that busy at this time of year. However...wait another month and the small hang out bars will be fuller and when hockey gets going it'll be in motion. The Canad has an emotional feeling around here...some against and some for...I'm neutral. My only beef is the kept bringing it back to the voters until it was approved. If we voted against it...then so be it...move on. But for me personally I like the Canad and the small bars in their. Very sociable place. Now...lets have them do something about the cost of using the slide and pool if your a resident!!

I live out-of-state and have not been to the Canad Inn yet. I don't hear much about the water park. How is it doing? Does it appear to be bring people into GF, even if just for the day? Also, I have heard the rumors that the hotel might be adding new rooms. Is it doing that well that the rumor could become reality?

[Local Boy]

SMN....emotional much?

The Alerus Commission Chairman is demanding The Canad pay The Alerus a commission on their room sales.

Think about this for a minute. A private biz paying money back to a government-owned entity.

I believe that if you knew as many details about The Alerus as people who are tuned into the issue, you'd be as appalled as I am.

The current structure is NOT working. Can you suggest any alternatives to their current business model? The Alerus is a HUGE issue in Grand Forks that touches UND athletics. For that reason, I believe it's germane to discussion on this board.

If you look at my original post on in this thread, you'll see I was simply proposing a discussion on a major civic topic.

[GeauxSioux]

Grand Forks is not alone in its predicament regarding a city owned facility. There was a story just yesterday about the Pensacola Civic Center losing money and what to do about it. Article and Video piece.

I think Local Boy and Whistler need to somehow get on a committee and see what they can do to change the operating structure of the Alerus. They have both been passionate about it.

In the old thread regarding the Alerus I had suggested that perhaps the Alerus shouldn't be chasing the big shows. Go for more dates with smaller shows. I think Star had a great idea about co-locating the library and fitness center there.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

In regards to concerts. The whole industry is hurting right now, tours are being shut down, etc. There is a reason that we aren't getting shows here, in addition to the fact we are a very small market. I am not sure how one could blame the Alerus for this.

[The Whistler]

In regards to concerts. The whole industry is hurting right now, tours are being shut down, etc. There is a reason that we aren't getting shows here, in addition to the fact we are a very small market. I am not sure how one could blame the Alerus for this.

Why can Fargo make money on concerts and we can't even break even? In my opinion the difference is management. Venuworks is doing a terrible job and the Alerus Commission seems to be happy with that.

Edit: One other thing, the Alerus has been losing money for years. I'm sure they want to blame today's concert industry but the problem is a lot deeper than that.

[The Whistler]

Grand Forks is not alone in its predicament regarding a city owned facility. There was a story just yesterday about the Pensacola Civic Center losing money and what to do about it. Article and Video piece.

I think Local Boy and Whistler need to somehow get on a committee and see what they can do to change the operating structure of the Alerus. They have both been passionate about it.

In the old thread regarding the Alerus I had suggested that perhaps the Alerus shouldn't be chasing the big shows. Go for more dates with smaller shows. I think Star had a great idea about co-locating the library and fitness center there.

The Alerus Gang, as I've named the various interests, doesn't want to change anything. The city council Alerus Task force had a number of recommendations that the Alerus gang has pretty much ignored 100%.

For the record, the audit showed that the Alerus had a 2.7 million dollar loss in net operating income in 2008. So why would you want to change anything?

The Alerus gang wants to fix the problem by creating a whole new level of subsidy.

[Hammersmith]

Why can Fargo make money on concerts and we can't even break even? In my opinion the difference is management. Venuworks is doing a terrible job and the Alerus Commission seems to be happy with that.

Edit: One other thing, the Alerus has been losing money for years. I'm sure they want to blame today's concert industry but the problem is a lot deeper than that.

I don't think it's today's concert industry that's the problem, I think it's the state of the industry ever since the Alerus opened its doors. The Alerus was planned in a time when the concert industry was running extremely hot. During the time between the opening of the Fargodome and the approval of the Alerus Center, the Fargodome was posting fantastic profits because of the state of that industry. The Fargodome made a profit from day-1, and the annual profit was racing toward $1 million(I think it peaked at around $800,000). At the time, there were actually more profitable concert tours than the Fargodome could handle. That was the environment when the Alerus Center was approved.

Then came the tech crash, followed by 9/11, followed by the wars in the Middle East, followed by the mortgage crisis, followed by the credit crisis. The concert industry fell apart after the tech crash, and it's never recovered. Every small recovery has been erased by another economic crisis. The Fargodome hasn't been immune to this. From the high point just as the Alerus was being built, the Fargodome profits fell to less than $20,000 just a couple years later. Today, a profit of over $100,000 at the end of the year is considered good, and anything approaching $200,000 is nearly beyond hope. With the construction of the Alerus and Ralph, and the state of the concert industry since the late 90's, we've been playing a zero-sum game in the RRV. There just aren't enough profitable concerts to go around anymore, and Fargo has significant advantages over GF when the concert promoters make their choices. The Fargodome ends up getting the sure things and the near-sure things, and the Alerus has to take the risky ones. I honestly think you could have the best management staff in the history of mankind, and the Alerus wouldn't make a profit right now. Maybe it wouldn't be losing quite so much, but I don't think you could break even.

I believe the Alerus was just planned and built in a time that doesn't exist anymore. It's only bitter irony that it never even got to experience that time. And I don't envy the choices faced by the city, Alerus commission, or the management company. Do you continue to take risks and probably lose money? Do you challenge the Fargodome for the sure-fire concerts knowing that the only way you'll get them is by undercutting the Fargodome so much that you'll hurt your bottom line and jeopardize your bargaining power in the future? Do you go for tiny concerts that are guaranteed losses, but small ones? Do you give up on concerts altogether and take the political hit? I don't know the answer, if even there is one. All I know is that a chunk of Grand Forks fell to the "if they(Fargo) can do it, so can we" fallacy, and that too many people bet on the best-case scenario when the economic models were studied. The Fargodome had back up plans if everything went to hell(hockey among other things), the Alerus did not. Now it's time to make the best of a bad situation. Accept that the decision was made. Accept that the Alerus will continue to lose money. Come to a consensus on which is more important: money, or the quality of life improvements brought by the concerts. And hope that the economy eventually recovers to the point that the hot days(or at least warm ones) return.

[The Whistler]

Fargo seems to be having as good a year as the glory years of yesteryear. That means to me that the Alerus Gang can't blame the "concert industry" for their mismanagement of the Alerus.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/fargo-dome-profits-while-alerus-gang-fritters-away-our-hard-earned-money/

I don't see any justification for forcing me tot subsidize concerts (more than the tax to build and maintain the building) so that someone else can enjoy the "quality of life" that they think they're entitled to. I would also dispute that Britney Spears concerts aren't quality of life anyway. Of course that's subjective, but it makes my point of you paying for the concerts you want to go to.

I like Neil Diamond, but hate concerts so I didn't go. Despite that it seems that those of us that didn't go to his concert picked up half of the tab for those that did.

The main problem here is that among a certain group of unfortunately influential people keeping up with Fargo is something the rest of us are just going to have to pay for. Well I don't want to live in Fargo. If I did want to I think I'd just move there.

In the first six months of the year the taxpayers had to pay 3.6 million in taxes to support the Alerus. According to the city website the net amount the Alerus supposedly brought in (the largest of which was the Republican state convention) is $1.7 million. http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/what-kind-of-idiots-spend-3-6-million-in-cash-to-bring-in-1-7-million/

I blame the guys that lied to get the place built in the first place. They need to step down so we can at least minimize the cost of their mess. Instead they want to extend the 3/4 % sales tax and use that to subsidize their bad business sense.

[MplsBison]

I don't think it's today's concert industry that's the problem, I think it's the state of the industry ever since the Alerus opened its doors. The Alerus was planned in a time when the concert industry was running extremely hot. During the time between the opening of the Fargodome and the approval of the Alerus Center, the Fargodome was posting fantastic profits because of the state of that industry. The Fargodome made a profit from day-1, and the annual profit was racing toward $1 million(I think it peaked at around $800,000). At the time, there were actually more profitable concert tours than the Fargodome could handle. That was the environment when the Alerus Center was approved.

Then came the tech crash, followed by 9/11, followed by the wars in the Middle East, followed by the mortgage crisis, followed by the credit crisis. The concert industry fell apart after the tech crash, and it's never recovered. Every small recovery has been erased by another economic crisis. The Fargodome hasn't been immune to this. From the high point just as the Alerus was being built, the Fargodome profits fell to less than $20,000 just a couple years later. Today, a profit of over $100,000 at the end of the year is considered good, and anything approaching $200,000 is nearly beyond hope. With the construction of the Alerus and Ralph, and the state of the concert industry since the late 90's, we've been playing a zero-sum game in the RRV. There just aren't enough profitable concerts to go around anymore, and Fargo has significant advantages over GF when the concert promoters make their choices. The Fargodome ends up getting the sure things and the near-sure things, and the Alerus has to take the risky ones. I honestly think you could have the best management staff in the history of mankind, and the Alerus wouldn't make a profit right now. Maybe it wouldn't be losing quite so much, but I don't think you could break even.

I believe the Alerus was just planned and built in a time that doesn't exist anymore. It's only bitter irony that it never even got to experience that time. And I don't envy the choices faced by the city, Alerus commission, or the management company. Do you continue to take risks and probably lose money? Do you challenge the Fargodome for the sure-fire concerts knowing that the only way you'll get them is by undercutting the Fargodome so much that you'll hurt your bottom line and jeopardize your bargaining power in the future? Do you go for tiny concerts that are guaranteed losses, but small ones? Do you give up on concerts altogether and take the political hit? I don't know the answer, if even there is one. All I know is that a chunk of Grand Forks fell to the "if they(Fargo) can do it, so can we" fallacy, and that too many people bet on the best-case scenario when the economic models were studied. The Fargodome had back up plans if everything went to hell(hockey among other things), the Alerus did not. Now it's time to make the best of a bad situation. Accept that the decision was made. Accept that the Alerus will continue to lose money. Come to a consensus on which is more important: money, or the quality of life improvements brought by the concerts. And hope that the economy eventually recovers to the point that the hot days(or at least warm ones) return.

At least they (city of GF) took the chance and built the thing. Maybe it is a money loser, but these days (esp. in fiscally conservative states like ND) getting anything built is a challenge.

I guess my point is that they can be proud that they actually got something built, even if it didn't work out.

[The Whistler]

At least they (city of GF) took the chance and built the thing. Maybe it is a money loser, but these days (esp. in fiscally conservative states like ND) getting anything built is a challenge.

I guess my point is that they can be proud that they actually got something built, even if it didn't work out.

Ha, an endorsement of the Aleurs coming from you is just about perfect. Thanks for making my day.

[Hammersmith]

Fargo seems to be having as good a year as the glory years of yesteryear. That means to me that the Alerus Gang can't blame the "concert industry" for their mismanagement of the Alerus.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/fargo-dome-profits-while-alerus-gang-fritters-away-our-hard-earned-money/

While the Fargodome has a profit of almost a half million to this point in the year, that number is going to come down a lot as the year comes to an end. It has been a great year, so it's possible the FD may crack $200k in profits by year's end, but it won't be anywhere close to the current number.

[The Whistler]

While the Fargodome has a profit of almost a half million to this point in the year, that number is going to come down a lot as the year comes to an end. It has been a great year, so it's possible the FD may crack $200k in profits by year's end, but it won't be anywhere close to the current number.

Really? It's seemed up here that the Alerus bombs really bad in the first half of the year and then does less bad in the second.

[GeauxSioux]

Okay, if it can't make money doing concerts. Reconfigure the building and change its mission. As Star said previously, co-locate other functions to the facility. Place the library and proposed fitness facility there. Market it for as a conference center. Create a children's museum in it. Stop trying to keep up with Fargo and market Grand Forks as something different.

Since the Sioux only play 4-5 games a year in the arena portion of the facility, move football back on campus.

[The Whistler]

Okay, if it can't make money doing concerts. Reconfigure the building and change its mission. As Star said previously, co-locate other functions to the facility. Place the library and proposed fitness facility there. Market it for as a conference center. Create a children's museum in it. Stop trying to keep up with Fargo and market Grand Forks as something different.

Since the Sioux only play 4-5 games a year in the arena portion of the facility, move football back on campus.

That might be what needs to be done, but the first thing is to try to find someone who CAN manage it. Those Venuworks/compass guys have proven to be even more incompetent than the long-term Alerus Commission members.

[MplsBison]

Ha, an endorsement of the Aleurs coming from you is just about perfect. Thanks for making my day.

Don't mistake it for being an endorsement of the building and how it's being used "as is".

I think you get my point...these days trying to actually do something is almost impossible. Too many people who sit around being critics of others and don't actually do anything themselves.