Enrollment

[The Sicatoka]

The last official policy statement (a university address) I'd heard was from Kupchella* and his long-range plan to get UND to about 15k enrollment and then focus on raising enrollment standards to be more selective. Kupchella believed that 15k or so was about the limit for the current buildings and infrastructures.

*Kudos to that guy. I believe his tenure laid the foundations and framework for today's growth and successes.

[darell1976]

The last official policy statement (a university address) I'd heard was from Kupchella* and his long-range plan to get UND to about 15k enrollment and then focus on raising enrollment standards to be more selective. Kupchella believed that 15k or so was about the limit for the current buildings and infrastructures.

*Kudos to that guy. I believe his tenure laid the foundations and framework for today's growth and successes.

Just to play on that....just how big is too big? As population grows so should the university.

[VMeister]

I cannot wait until they figure out how to offer online courses, the backpedaling will be a sight to see.

They already have online course. Just not very good at it.

U.S. News ranks UND #3 in the nation for student services & technology for online bachelor’s degrees

[UND1983]

They already have online course. Just not very good at it.

Somebody better let Arizona State, Sam Houston State, Florida International, and Washington State know that online courses are not looked upon very highly by the rest of the their peers....(or maybe just NDSU).

[Hammersmith]

Is to possible to get the numbers on campus and the numbers online from each school?

Edit: As well as the average ACT scores for the four cohorts (online at UND and NDSU, and in person at UND and NDSU)?

For the current academic year, not for a few months. We also can't find out the last part of your question about a 4-way breakdown. We can answer two of your questions from last year: on-campus vs. off campus and incoming ACT scores from both schools. The first numbers are found in the SBHE fall 2011 enrollment report, and the second comes from the respective school's common data set report.

Fall 2011 Enrollment:

NDSU face to face on-campus: 13,653

UND face to face on-campus: 11,975

NDSU distance ed-only: 746

UND distance ed-only: 2722

NDSU on-campus students that also took some form of distance ed: 2867

UND on-campus students that also took some form of distance ed: 1430

2011 Incoming freshmen ACT scores: (composite/math/english)

NDSU 75th percentile: 26/26/25

UND 75th percentile: 26/26/25

NDSU 25th percentile: 21/21/19

UND 25th percentile: 21/20/20

Taking it one step further...

score - NDSU/UND

30-36 - 8%/6%

24-29 - 42%/39%

18-23 - 46%/50%

12-17 - 3%/5%

0-11 - 0%/0%

(NDSU adds up to 99% due to rounding)

http://www.ndus.noda...eport--5-12.pdf

http://www.ndsu.edu/...S_2011-2012.pdf

http://und.edu/resea...s-2011-2012.pdf

[The Sicatoka]

Given those numbers, why are 13% of NDSU students in remedial (below college level) courses at NDSU but just only 5% at UND*. Something doesn't flow logically there.

*per the ND SBoHE last week.

[Hammersmith]

Given those numbers, why are 13% of NDSU students in remedial (below college level) courses at NDSU but just only 5% at UND*. Something doesn't flow logically there.

*per the ND SBoHE last week.

It's a good question, and I'd like to have an answer to it as well. I don't know if there are different standards at the two schools or not. I don't know if certain classes are considered remedial at NDSU but not UND. Maybe NDSU tests incoming students in certain areas and UND doesn't. I just don't know. I suspect it's more on the English side considering the sub-scores, but it could also easily be sub-trig math classes. I know NDSU gives all incoming students a math placement test; does UND do the same?

It does somewhat explain the number of NDSU students taking both on-campus and distance ed classes. At NDSU, remedial classes are handled by the continuing and distance ed department. I don't know if the same is true for UND. I'm not saying all students taking both are taking remedial classes, but it's probably why NDSU's number is greater than UND's.

[The Sicatoka]

UND has a math placement test also.

I'm going to echo watchmaker's question: How are Tri-College (NDSU, MSU-Moorhead, Concordia) students counted by NDSU?

[Hammersmith]

UND has a math placement test also.

I'm going to echo watchmaker's question: How are Tri-College (NDSU, MSU-Moorhead, Concordia) students counted by NDSU?

As far as I know, they are included in the total headcount. It's SBHE policy that anyone who takes a class for credit at any ND institution is counted at that institution. Now, they're not going get counted as a full-time NDSU student if they're only taking one class. They'll be counted as a part-time student just like an LRSC student who takes an online UND class is counted in the UND total headcount. Obviously a Concordia student taking a class at MSUM(or vice versa) won't be counted by NDSU in any way.

[Teeder11]

As far as I know, they are included in the total headcount. It's SBHE policy that anyone who takes a class for credit at any ND institution is counted at that institution. Now, they're not going get counted as a full-time NDSU student if they're only taking one class. They'll be counted as a part-time student just like an LRSC student who takes an online UND class is counted in the UND total headcount. Obviously a Concordia student taking a class at MSUM(or vice versa) won't be counted by NDSU in any way.

So we're saying that both schools are counting students correctly within SBHE standards and both schools' numbers reflect legitimate students enrolled at each school. What the heck are we are arguing about then?

[The Sicatoka]

What the heck are we are arguing about then?

"This week's tawpic on Quawfee Tawk: The interwebs, although full of nothing but 100% true factual information, are just a passing fad and definitely never to be used for educational purposes. Discuss amongst yourselves."

[Hammersmith]

So we're saying that both schools are counting students correctly within SBHE standards and both schools' numbers reflect legitimate students enrolled at each school. What the heck are we are arguing about then?

No clue. Someone asked the question and I answered it. I think there's a small group here who think tri-college students are "illegitimate" or something because they don't directly pay for the classes to the school they're taking a class from. A Concordia student that takes an NDSU class through the tri-college system doesn't pay money to NDSU; it's included as part of their Concordia tuition. I think the colleges keep track and pay each other any discrepancies at the end of the semester or year, but I'm not 100% certain of that. There are a bunch of restrictions on how many and exactly which classes a student can take through the tri-college system.

As for the remedial question brought up a while back, this fall's data will be very interesting. It seems the the SBHE just instituted uniform standards on the subject back in March or April. If there still is a 2x difference between the two schools, then something weird is going on.

[watchmaker49]

No clue. Someone asked the question and I answered it. I think there's a small group here who think tri-college students are "illegitimate" or something because they don't directly pay for the classes to the school they're taking a class from. A Concordia student that takes an NDSU class through the tri-college system doesn't pay money to NDSU; it's included as part of their Concordia tuition. I think the colleges keep track and pay each other any discrepancies at the end of the semester or year, but I'm not 100% certain of that. There are a bunch of restrictions on how many and exactly which classes a student can take through the tri-college system.

As for the remedial question brought up a while back, this fall's data will be very interesting. It seems the the SBHE just instituted uniform standards on the subject back in March or April. If there still is a 2x difference between the two schools, then something weird is going on.

I didn't think they were illegitmite at all. I was just curious if anyone knew how they were or were not counted in the total. I thought someone here would know. I still am wondering what classes would be considered remedial though. Comp I and II are both required courses and neither are remedial classes. Beyond that I have no idea except for a math class that could be considered remedial. Heck most 100 level classes have more busy work than the 3s and 4s do.

[mg2009]

online education will always be a minor sideshow. I'd rather UND not become an online degree mill.

Doesn't the aviation school with its national recruiting have much higher standards than the rest of UND for admission? Shouldn't that be pulling up average scores?

[Hammersmith]

I didn't think they were illegitmite at all. I was just curious if anyone knew how they were or were not counted in the total. I thought someone here would know. I still am wondering what classes would be considered remedial though. Comp I and II are both required courses and neither are remedial classes. Beyond that I have no idea except for a math class that could be considered remedial. Heck most 100 level classes have more busy work than the 3s and 4s do.

Anything below 100, English 100, Math 101 & 102. Engl 100 is a one credit writing lab that goes with Engl 110. You have to take both if you enter with an ACT English subscore of less than 18. If you scored an 18 or more, you start in Engl 120. As for math, 101 & 102 are elementary and intermediate algebra courses. You have to take at least 102 if you have an ACT math subscore of less than 22. This policy went into place for this fall at both UND & NDSU. Using the ACT breakdown from the common data sets, fully 25% of incoming freshmen at both universities will need to take a remedial math course(a touch more at UND; maybe 27-28%). And 13% of incoming freshmen will have to take remedial English at both schools. Students can try and test out if they wish to pay a testing fee and pass the test.

[82SiouxGuy]

online education will always be a minor sideshow. I'd rather UND not become an online degree mill.

Doesn't the aviation school with its national recruiting have much higher standards than the rest of UND for admission? Shouldn't that be pulling up average scores?

Online education will continue to become more and more important. People are trying to find ways to fit education into their lives, not everyone can take 4-6 years out of their life to spend in college. And there is a great deal of difference between online degree mills and legitimate online education courses. Accreditation helps sort out one from the other.

[GeauxSioux]

Just to add a little to the conversation of bricks and mortar versus online. http://www.bestcounselingschools.com/top/online-counseling-degrees/

UND ranks #3 of the best online counseling programs, between Seton Hall and UMass, both of which are well established brick and mortar schools. The trend is toward a nice mix of face to face and online. I'm glad UND is on-board with that concept.

[watchmaker49]

Anything below 100, English 100, Math 101 & 102. Engl 100 is a one credit writing lab that goes with Engl 110. You have to take both if you enter with an ACT English subscore of less than 18. If you scored an 18 or more, you start in Engl 120. As for math, 101 & 102 are elementary and intermediate algebra courses. You have to take at least 102 if you have an ACT math subscore of less than 22. This policy went into place for this fall at both UND & NDSU. Using the ACT breakdown from the common data sets, fully 25% of incoming freshmen at both universities will need to take a remedial math course(a touch more at UND; maybe 27-28%). And 13% of incoming freshmen will have to take remedial English at both schools. Students can try and test out if they wish to pay a testing fee and pass the test.

Thank you.

[siouxjoy]

Anything below 100, English 100, Math 101 & 102. Engl 100 is a one credit writing lab that goes with Engl 110. You have to take both if you enter with an ACT English subscore of less than 18. If you scored an 18 or more, you start in Engl 120. As for math, 101 & 102 are elementary and intermediate algebra courses. You have to take at least 102 if you have an ACT math subscore of less than 22. This policy went into place for this fall at both UND & NDSU. Using the ACT breakdown from the common data sets, fully 25% of incoming freshmen at both universities will need to take a remedial math course(a touch more at UND; maybe 27-28%). And 13% of incoming freshmen will have to take remedial English at both schools. Students can try and test out if they wish to pay a testing fee and pass the test.

Sorry Hammersmith, but you have an error: Students with an ACT score of 18 or higher can enroll in Engl 110, not Engl 120.

[Dagger]

Every year when enrollment numbers are released there is a lot of conversation both here and at BV. This year there has been considerable conversation here but almost nothing at BV. Interesting.

[watchmaker49]

Sorry Hammersmith, but you have an error: Students with an ACT score of 18 or higher can enroll in Engl 110, not Engl 120.

Unless you took Comp I in high school I think you need to take it at UND unless you test out. Though it is a good class to take just to meet people.

[Hammersmith]

Sorry Hammersmith, but you have an error: Students with an ACT score of 18 or higher can enroll in Engl 110, not Engl 120.

Sorry, NDSU and UND do this slightly differently and I didn't catch the difference. At NDSU, you probably only take 110 if you're also taking 100. If you score an 18 or up, you can go straight to 120. After passing 120 with a grade of C or better, you also get credit for 110(pass/fail most likely). A student may still choose to take 110 first if they don't feel comfortable skipping it. UND handles it differently. 18 and up takes only 110. 14-17 takes 110 with 100. Below 14 takes 95, then 110. Once you've passed 110, then you take 120. I think NDSU has a similar sub-100 class but it might be numbered 90 instead of 95. I'm pretty sure you can test out of 110 at UND or skip it if you took(and passed the test for) a dual-credit or AP English class in high school.

http://www2.und.edu/...letter/?p=25405

http://www.ndsu.edu/...oming_students/

[watchmaker49]

Sorry, NDSU and UND do this slightly differently and I didn't catch the difference. At NDSU, you probably only take 110 if you're also taking 100. If you score an 18 or up, you can go straight to 120. After passing 120 with a grade of C or better, you also get credit for 110(pass/fail most likely). A student may still choose to take 110 first if they don't feel comfortable skipping it. UND handles it differently. 18 and up takes only 110. 14-17 takes 110 with 100. Below 14 takes 95, then 110. Once you've passed 110, then you take 120. I think NDSU has a similar sub-100 class but it might be numbered 90 instead of 95. I'm pretty sure you can test out of 110 at UND or skip it if you took(and passed the test for) a dual-credit or AP English class in high school.

http://www2.und.edu/...letter/?p=25405

http://www.ndsu.edu/...oming_students/

Thank you once again for your research. I appreciate it. By the way, how did you keep all that straight in your head while you typed?

[Hammersmith]

Thank you once again for your research. I appreciate it. By the way, how did you keep all that straight in your head while you typed?

Kept both the links open in different tabs and switched frequently. Holding off on finishing my after-work beer until I was done also helped.

[mg2009]

Online education will continue to become more and more important. People are trying to find ways to fit education into their lives, not everyone can take 4-6 years out of their life to spend in college. And there is a great deal of difference between online degree mills and legitimate online education courses. Accreditation helps sort out one from the other.

you really didn't make an argument here. Online education will always be a second-rate alternative for a few people with no good options, and provide degrees of dubious merit, while simultaneously missing the most important part of many degree programs, which is the networking.