Big Sky or Summit

[star2city]

Sorry star, but it's more likely this is about the upcoming demise of the Great West Conference than any elusive Summit bylaws(that probably don't exist). Once you guys get a Summit invite, there will be nothing holding the football and all-sports halves of the GWC together. Personally, I don't see the all-sports part of the GWC surviving the loss of the UxDs, but even if it does, it won't be interested in running the football side of the conference anymore. At that point, it makes sense to return the administration of the conference back to the Summit where it all started(if you recall, the Mid-Con ran the GWFC for most of its run). While the Summit presidents will investigate bringing football completely in-house, I believe they will end up returning to the old status quo and run the GWFC out of the Summit offices. Maybe they will keep the GWFC name(especially of the GWC folds), maybe they will call it the Summit Football Conference, or maybe they will come up with some other name, but it will be a separate conference. That keeps everyone happy, or at least close to it. SUU, UND & USD keep their football home even if the GWC goes under, NDSU, SDSU & WIU aren't forced to do something they don't want to(or if not forced, at least they won't feel pressured), and the non-football schools won't feel like the conference is shifting away from them(why the non-football MVC schools continue to want the MVFC to be administratively separate from the MVC).

A rule you can rely on 99.9% of the time is that university presidents will do the minimum possible to achieve their needs. This is not the 0.1% of the time. You can look on it as an extension of Occam's Razor. Which is more likely: star's elaborate scenario of schools switching conferences, scheduling agreements between conferences, and moving autobids, or my scenario of everything staying the same except the location of the conference office? If you go with star, I think you need some time away from the internet and star's Hypnotoad*.

*Hypnotoad courtesy of Futurama - the show that wouldn't die. New episodes starting tonight on Comedy Central, 8pm EST/9pm CST.

Again, the internet message board police are out in full force.

Show me the bylaws.

What is really telling is just how much NDSU and SDSU fans fear the thought of UND and USD being equal conference partners, and despise the thought of moving fully behind the Summit League when out of the other side of their mouth they brag it up.

[Hammersmith]

Again, the internet message board police are out in full force.

Show me the bylaws.

What is really telling is just how much NDSU and SDSU fans fear the thought of UND and USD being equal conference partners, and despise the thought of moving fully behind the Summit League when out of the other side of their mouth they brag it up.

Why should I show you the bylaws? Shouldn't you be the one showing me? You're the one basing an argument on something you say exists but have no proof of. In fact, you claim "Conference bylaws normally require schools to participate with all sports in which more than half the conference members offer the sport and / or if an autobid becomes available." Do you have any proof of that? I have run into very few conferences that publish their bylaws on the internet. Have you actually read the bylaws of multiple conferences or are you just making assumptions again and passing them off as fact. You want to come up with wild scenarios? Fine. Just don't try to pass off your assumptions as facts and then get pissy when someone calls you on it.

I guess I didn't realize it before now, but you've become MplsBison.

[homer]

No offense Hammer cause I really enjoy reading your answers to tough questions on this message board but the only couple people who have taken Stars postings and quoted them as fact have been yourself and JackJD. I believe the whole thing started as a possible scenario of what could be there. He has never stated that is in fact there, he's even admitted to not reading the by laws so no one really knows.

While I don't agree with the arguing it has started with someone coming in and claiming he is stating fact when he and us know its a possible scenerio. I think most of us Sioux fans agree more with your thoughts about the Summit and Great West football being run out of the same office but this caught everyone off guard and its kind of fun to discuss.

[star2city]

I have run into very few conferences that publish their bylaws on the internet.

Many conferences post their bylaws, Hammer. You're not posting up to your standards at all.

Here's three found within a minute (could not find the MVC's):

Big 12 Bylaws

WAC Code Book

Mountain West bylaws

The Big 12 appears to require conference play in sports that have six participants. The WAC and Mountain West list particular sports they sponsor and don't appear to address other sports. One out of 3 would theoretically require it. Since the Summit (formerly MidCon) actually used to sponsor football in the 1980's and numerous sports have been dropped and then restarted as conference sports in the Summit's history, it is quite likely that this subject is addressed in the Summit bylaws.

The whole issue of football sponsorship is a major branding issue for a conference. It would be a major coup for the Summit to sponsor football and bind the membership together better. But that's convenient to ignore, because it's apparent that you and most other NDSU fans want a weak Summit and want to leave it because you collectively think it "sucks" (per Bisonville).

Have you actually read the bylaws of multiple conferences or are you just making assumptions again and passing them off as fact.

Have you ever, ever read one? I'm geekish enough that I have to help understand the timing and the financial ramifications of conference moves.

You want to come up with wild scenarios? Fine. Just don't try to pass off your assumptions as facts and then get pissy when someone calls you on it.

Actually, I brought up this issue 18 months ago and you became pissy then. Seems like your temper is flaring, again, based on the next comment.

I guess I didn't realize it before now, but you've become MplsBison.

The last time a posting irritated you, you called me JBB. Now I'm MplsBison. Am I next Lakesbison!

Perhaps you should take your message board policing operation to your very own board. Found this by a poster named BraxtonT, who wants Summit football.

In regards to the actual topic:

"Summit Division" = 6 Summit Schools

"Valley Division" = 5 MVC and 1 OVC team.

Sounds good to me.

He needs chastisement by your standards.

[NDSU grad]

Again, the internet message board police are out in full force.

Show me the bylaws.

What is really telling is just how much NDSU and SDSU fans fear the thought of UND and USD being equal conference partners, and despise the thought of moving fully behind the Summit League when out of the other side of their mouth they brag it up.

Actually, what most NDSU fans fear is the loss of the autobid and a return to the scheduling woes we faced when we were members of the GWFC. Having 6 teams doesn't guarantee an autobid.

[FSSD]

Somewhat related to this discussion is the topic of Big Ten Hockey. I believe that the Big Ten has a by-law that requires conference play if 6 schools participate in a sport. So, Wis/Min/MSU/Mich/OSU would leave the CCHA and WCHA for the Big Ten. I am not sure if all schools support this action. But, it is very similiar to the Summit League football discussion.

[Shawn-O]

Somewhat related to this discussion is the topic of Big Ten Hockey. I believe that the Big Ten has a by-law that requires conference play if 6 schools participate in a sport. So, Wis/Min/MSU/Mich/OSU would leave the CCHA and WCHA for the Big Ten. I am not sure if all schools support this action. But, it is very similiar to the Summit League football discussion.

UConn, BC and Notre Dame have all been a part of the expansion rumors at one point or another. Looks like we've dodged that bullet for a few years, at least.

[JackJD]

Last evening I questioned what I interpreted to be factual assertions based on speculation by star. It seems my question may have irritated one or two -- that was not my purpose. My primary purpose in posting was to inquire about whether there were actual facts supporting some of the claims about Summit League Bylaws. If it was all message-board speculation, that's fine. In any event, I tried to determine whether 1) there are Summit League bylaws addressing this situation; and 2) if such Bylaws exist, are they a matter of public record? I said I'd report back in.

Like others who have commented, I could not readily locate Summit League bylaws. Now, I didn't spend a huge amount of time on this matter but I did make some contacts with people in the know. So, I have no idea whether there are any bylaws that may address this situation and may provide, for example, the hypothetical situation that star discussed. It stands to reason that the League must have bylaws and I think that's the main thrust of star's comments. But it seems apparent that there are no bylaws governing the football question. That point was succintly made a few posts ago, when Gothmog asked: Why would the Summit League need to do a Football feasibility study if its bylaws would require sponsorship of football anyway?

There are some things that are certain. One thing we know is the Summit League has indicated it is studying the situation. The League has members with football and members without football. It is also clear that the council of Summit League Presidents has the authority to set the rules. It can create and it can delete any rules (bylaws) as it sees fit.

Gothmog's question suggests the most likely case: there are no Summit League bylaws clearly addressing the situation discussed by star.

Where do I send my two-cents?

[Yote 53]

The real question is what kind of conference mates are the SU's going to be in the Summit? So the SU's are ready to leave our football programs out to hang. Thanks for being good conference mates. This is what we have to look forward to. If the Summit puts together a good, viable conference then the SU's should be expected to join. If not, go ask the Sky if you can play basketball there.

I really don't get the SU's objection to this. Any proposed Summit conference would be a pretty decent conference. It's not like NDSU is even competitive in the MVFC. They wouldn't even win the proposed Summit Football League.

[JackJD]

The real question is what kind of conference mates are the SU's going to be in the Summit? So the SU's are ready to leave our football programs out to hang. Thanks for being good conference mates. This is what we have to look forward to. If the Summit puts together a good, viable conference then the SU's should be expected to join. If not, go ask the Sky if you can play basketball there.

I really don't get the SU's objection to this. Any proposed Summit conference would be a pretty decent conference. It's not like NDSU is even competitive in the MVFC. They wouldn't even win the proposed Summit Football League.

I look at it differently. I don't think it would be appropriate for NDSU and SDSU to bail on the MVFC and it simply wouldn't make sense when NDSU and SDSU are in an auto-bid conference. It's not a matter of leaving football programs out to hang or a question of being good conference mates (by the way, check with the League office and see who supported USD's admission to the Summit League and who, I am confident, will support UND's invitation to join the Summit League).

[Herd]

The real question is what kind of conference mates are the SU's going to be in the Summit? So the SU's are ready to leave our football programs out to hang. Thanks for being good conference mates. This is what we have to look forward to. If the Summit puts together a good, viable conference then the SU's should be expected to join. If not, go ask the Sky if you can play basketball there.

I really don't get the SU's objection to this. Any proposed Summit conference would be a pretty decent conference. It's not like NDSU is even competitive in the MVFC. They wouldn't even win the proposed Summit Football League.

Would you want USD to leave a nine team MVFC getting 2-3 playoff bids annually and MVC affiliation to join a 6 team Summit League with no autobid? You feel that its SDSU's duty to join you in Summit football because they should be good neighbors? Really? Really, maybe you should start being a little honest with yourself? No way in hell you would be in favor of doing the same if it were USD in the MVFC, and you know it. College athletics is not the land of charitable giving, sorry about that.

The only reason that your school is DI is that you saw SDSU moving ahead without you, now you want SDSU to give up what it has worked for? Really? SDSU staying in the Valley has nothing to do with USD, it has to do with what's best for SDSU.

I see Summit Football coming, but it looks an awful lot like GW Football, matter of fact, it looks exactly like GW Football . . . w/ SUU, UND, USD, Davis, Poly. The Valley remains at 9 for now, so you'll need to be patient. In addition, why would W IL want to move out of a football conference that includes 2 schools from their home state so they can travel all over the place, and potentially to CA. Forcing the Valley schools back to the Summit will never happen.

[Herd]

The real question is what kind of conference mates are the SU's going to be in the Summit? So the SU's are ready to leave our football programs out to hang. Thanks for being good conference mates. This is what we have to look forward to. If the Summit puts together a good, viable conference then the SU's should be expected to join. If not, go ask the Sky if you can play basketball there.

I really don't get the SU's objection to this. Any proposed Summit conference would be a pretty decent conference. It's not like NDSU is even competitive in the MVFC. They wouldn't even win the proposed Summit Football League.

The SU's will be very good conference mates in every sport, except football.

[GeauxSioux]

Would you want USD to leave a nine team MVFC getting 2-3 playoff bids annually and MVC affiliation to join a 6 team Summit League with no autobid? You feel that its SDSU's duty to join you in Summit football because they should be good neighbors? Really? Really, maybe you should start being a little honest with yourself? No way in hell you would be in favor of doing the same if it were USD in the MVFC, and you know it. College athletics is not the land of charitable giving, sorry about that.

The only reason that your school is DI is that you saw SDSU moving ahead without you, now you want SDSU to give up what it has worked for? Really? SDSU staying in the Valley has nothing to do with USD, it has to do with what's best for SDSU.

I see Summit Football coming, but it looks an awful lot like GW Football, matter of fact, it looks exactly like GW Football . . . w/ SUU, UND, USD, Davis, Poly. The Valley remains at 9 for now, so you'll need to be patient. In addition, why would W IL want to move out of a football conference that includes 2 schools from their home state so they can travel all over the place, and potentially to CA. Forcing the Valley schools back to the Summit will never happen.

Lets use hockey as an example. (and yes it is always about hockey ). What if the Summit decided to sponsor hockey. Would you like to be forced out the WCHA to a Summit hockey league? I know USD isn't that situation, but try an imagine it. I know every Sioux fan would be telling NDSU fan to get stuffed.

[homer]

The real question is what kind of conference mates are the SU's going to be in the Summit? So the SU's are ready to leave our football programs out to hang. Thanks for being good conference mates. This is what we have to look forward to. If the Summit puts together a good, viable conference then the SU's should be expected to join. If not, go ask the Sky if you can play basketball there.

I really don't get the SU's objection to this. Any proposed Summit conference would be a pretty decent conference. It's not like NDSU is even competitive in the MVFC. They wouldn't even win the proposed Summit Football League.

Don't agree with this at all and I think most understand XDSU's objections to this proposal. Both schools are in a very good spot right now.

[star2city]

Lets use hockey as an example. (and yes it is always about hockey ). What if the Summit decided to sponsor hockey. Would you like to be forced out the WCHA to a Summit hockey league? I know USD isn't that situation, but try an imagine it. I know every Sioux fan would be telling NDSU fan to get stuffed.

The SU's have no natural rivals in the MVFC except for Northern Iowa, so this isn't a good analogy at all. A better hockey analogy would be Michigan Tech coming back to the WCHA would be like NDSU and SDSU coming back to it's roots.

[star2city]

Like others who have commented, I could not readily locate Summit League bylaws. Now, I didn't spend a huge amount of time on this matter but I did make some contacts with people in the know. So, I have no idea whether there are any bylaws that may address this situation and may provide, for example, the hypothetical situation that star discussed. It stands to reason that the League must have bylaws and I think that's the main thrust of star's comments. But it seems apparent that there are no bylaws governing the football question. That point was succintly made a few posts ago, when Gothmog asked: Why would the Summit League need to do a Football feasibility study if its bylaws would require sponsorship of football anyway?

One of the points of the study would be how quickly an autobid would be available. The Big South gained an autobid when it reached six members. An autobid is not that difficult to gain, especially now that FCS has 20 playoff spots.

[Gothmog]

One of the points of the study would be how quickly an autobid would be available. The Big South gained an autobid when it reached six members. An autobid is not that difficult to gain, especially now that FCS has 20 playoff spots.

In any case, the need for a study implies a decision-making process that is missing from your "Summit bylaws will require football once 6 football playing members are acquired" scenario.

[star2city]

I see Summit Football coming, but it looks an awful lot like GW Football, matter of fact, it looks exactly like GW Football . . . w/ SUU, UND, USD, Davis, Poly. The Valley remains at 9 for now, so you'll need to be patient. In addition, why would W IL want to move out of a football conference that includes 2 schools from their home state so they can travel all over the place, and potentially to CA. Forcing the Valley schools back to the Summit will never happen.

Remember all too well certain things would never happen:

NDSU would never join the Summit, as the Big Sky would offer

UND moving to DI

USD moving to DI

USD wouldn't get in the Summit for years

NDSU won't have a losing football record for years

NDSU basketball will be a perpetual powerhouse in the Summit

BTW, where has any Summit official been talking about UCDavis and Cal Poly? They are not Summit members. That is merely speculation and possible myth perpetuated by Bison fans.