NDSU hiring freeze

[MplsBison]

That number could be a bit misleading.

A lot of times a university will grant a tuition waiver to a graduate student IF he works for the university (say as a research or teaching assistant), say 20 hr/week for a full tuition waver, 10 hr/week for 50% waiver.

So it's not like the university is just giving tuition away for nothing.

If you want to grow your graduate program and your research, which NDSU does, then you've got to have grad students. And a lot of times grad students, especially good ones, are going to want some kind of financial help.

[Pudd]

That number could be a bit misleading.

A lot of times a university will grant a tuition waiver to a graduate student IF he works for the university (say as a research or teaching assistant), say 20 hr/week for a full tuition waver, 10 hr/week for 50% waiver.

So it's not like the university is just giving tuition away for nothing.

If you want to grow your graduate program and your research, which NDSU does, then you've got to have grad students. And a lot of times grad students, especially good ones, are going to want some kind of financial help.

Good job you read the part of the article about grad work.

If you do the math, they wouldn't have the budget issue is they gave out 500 less waivers. Do they really need over 20% of their students having a free ride? Note: math based on 14,186 students and 3,066 waivers.

[The Sicatoka]

Let's go further inside the numbers.

At NDSU 3066 waivers, 14186 students: 21.6% on a waiver.

Let's talk dollars instead.

NDSU waivers: $11 million

UND waivers: $7 million

If NDSU went down from $11 million to $7 million in waivers that

[star2city]

Let's go further inside the numbers.

At NDSU 3066 waivers, 14186 students: 21.6% on a waiver.

Let's talk dollars instead.

NDSU waivers: $11 million

UND waivers: $7 million

If NDSU went down from $11 million to $7 million in waivers that

[FargoBison]

It would be interesting to know how many waivers NDSU was giving pre- and post- Chapman. Their enrollment growth may have been an non-sustainable set of mirrors.

Tuition-paying students are the one's that end up taking the major hit with tuition waivers.

It is all smoke and mirrors? Tuition waivers are not given out for nothing. The increase in waivers should go along with the increase in enrollment and research. Grad students teach many of the intro level courses, if you have more undergrads then you need more grad students to teach them.

[The Sicatoka]

Grad students teach many of the intro level courses, if you have more undergrads then you need more grad students to teach them.

1. You're not going to win lots of friends in small town ND telling parents that they're paying tuition for someone other than a professor to be teaching their kid. (I'm from the realm that says you need to have a masters to teach folks working on a bachelors, and a doctorate to teach masters degree classes.)

2. You need those "more undergrads" to pay their tuition bill (which is a part of the shortfall per Dr. Hanson).

In my UND days there was a word for someone who didn't pay their tuition: Disenrolled.

Apparently the word for that at NDSU is: Headcount.

[FargoBison]

1. You're not going to win lots of friends in small town ND telling parents that they're paying tuition for someone other than a professor to be teaching their kid.

2. You need those "more undergrads" to pay their tuition bill (which is a part of the shortfall per Dr. Hanson).

In my UND days there was a word for someone who didn't pay their tuition: Disenrolled.

Apparently the word for that at NDSU is: Headcount.

That is life, basically every entry level English course and public speaking course at NDSU is taught by a grad student. Every student is required to take those courses, do the math. You either pay a professor a full salary/benefits or give a grad student a tuition waiver/stipend to do it. This isn't exactly something unique to college academics, but if parents want to pay more so their kid can be taught general courses by a professor I'm sure it could be done. Of course I don't think NDSU is going to win lots of friends by doubling their tuition.

The undergrads need to pay up, and if they don't they can't sign up for spring classes or get their diplomas.

[SiouxMD]

That is life, basically every entry level English course and public speaking course at NDSU is taught by a grad student. Every student is required to take those courses, do the math. You either pay a professor a full salary/benefits or give a grad student a tuition waiver/stipend to do it. This isn't exactly something unique to college academics, but if parents want to pay more so their kid can be taught general courses by a professor I'm sure it could be done. Of course I don't think NDSU is going to win lots of friends by doubling their tuition.

The undergrads need to pay up, and if they don't they can't sign up for spring classes.

Times have changed. My undergraduate studies were heavy on science but I don't recall having any of my courses being taught by graduate students. None. Lab was a different story.

[Pudd]

That is life, basically every entry level English course and public speaking course at NDSU is taught by a grad student. Every student is required to take those courses, do the math. You either pay a professor a full salary/benefits or give a grad student a tuition waiver/stipend to do it. This isn't exactly something unique to college academics, but if parents want to pay more so their kid can be taught general courses by a professor I'm sure it could be done. Of course I don't think NDSU is going to win lots of friends by doubling their tuition.

The undergrads need to pay up, and if they don't they can't sign up for spring classes or get their diplomas.

I think you're missing the point. NDSU has probably more than 1,000 on waviers than UND with a student base roughly 1,000 more. How can it take NDSU that many more waivers than UND to get grad students to teach classes to roughly the same number of students?

[FargoBison]

I think you're missing the point. NDSU has probably more than 1,000 on waviers than UND with a student base roughly 1,000 more. How can it take NDSU that many more waivers than UND to get grad students to teach classes to roughly the same number of students?

NDSU has over a 1,000 more undergrads than UND, so it should take more waivers for teaching entry level courses. Of course waivers aren't just for teaching they are also for research. This whole discussion is pointless unless we know where waivers were at prior to NDSU's surge in research and enrollment.

NDSU is not just waiving tuition to get students to enroll, if you get a waiver you are doing something to earn it. Whether that be for athletics, teaching, research, or helping the University in some way.

[The Sicatoka]

My undergraduate studies were heavy on science but I don't recall having any of my courses being taught by graduate students. None. Lab was a different story.

That's my experience (at UND) as well.

NDSU has probably more than 1,000 on waviers than UND with a student base roughly 1,000 more. How can it take NDSU that many more waivers than UND to get grad students to teach classes to roughly the same number of students?

That's the question you weren't supposed to ask.

[NDSUguy]

I love reading all of the speculation regarding this.... It's quite fascinating. <yawn>

Bottom line is that NDSU is putting on a hiring freeze. Some is due to not receiving their payments and some is due to waivers.

NDSU has decided to be aggressive in growing the university. Some of this comes with the territory. If only the state funding inequities were resolved NDSU would have MORE than enough cash to pay for those additional waivers.

[Shawn-O]

It would be interesting to know how many waivers NDSU was giving pre- and post- Chapman. Their enrollment growth may be non-sustainable.

The enrollment growth will not be sustainable. And they chirped down south about the UND job being unattractive when Kupchella left? Closed circuit to potential applicants: Run the other direction as fast as you can.

[The Sicatoka]

NDSU is not just waiving tuition to get students to enroll, if you get a waiver you are doing something to earn it.

That's what we're being told.

I'd like to hear the auditors' view.

[The Sicatoka]

If only the state funding inequities were resolved NDSU would have MORE than enough cash to pay for those additional waivers.

That old axe is out of the shed again?

I thought NDSU president Joe Chapman set the Legislature and the ND SBoHE straight on all of that and made NDSU's growth and budget wonderful. Joe's made it all "wonderful" for NDSU, yes indeed.

And this will sting all of the NDUS schools because I suspect the Legislature will seriously relook at the power it gave to the ND SBoHE under the Education Roundtable.

[Shawn-O]

That's what we're being told.

I'd like to hear the auditors' view.

You those mean ol' N.D state auditors with UND accounting degrees and an axe to grind with NDSU? That'll be the next spin.

[FargoBison]

Times have changed. My undergraduate studies were heavy on science but I don't recall having any of my courses being taught by graduate students. None. Lab was a different story.

Besides English, public speaking, and one lab, every course I took was taught be a professor. Unless for some reason the professor had to leave, which in that case a grad student took over in the short term.

Of course you can teach a science or stats class to 200 students at a time while English, public speaking, and labs are all class sizes of around 20. When every undergrad needs to take those courses it can create a huge demand and I suppose the only cost effective way of meeting it is with grad students.

[FargoBison]

That's what we're being told.

I'd like to hear the auditors' view.

Well I have talked with the dean of business at NDSU and the chair of the communication department, neither told me anything about going to grad school for doing nothing.

[The Whistler]

Some of this comes with the territory. If only the state funding inequities were resolved NDSU would have MORE than enough cash to pay for those additional waivers.

The state legislature increased support of the agricultural school from from $77.5 million to $128.5 in the last two sessions. That

[The Whistler]

Well I have talked with the dean of business at NDSU and the chair of the communication department, neither told me anything about going to grad school for doing nothing.

"Dean of Business at NDSU" is involved in those roadside produce sales and the chair of communications teaches calling an auction?

[homer]

You those mean ol' N.D state auditors with UND accounting degrees and an axe to grind with NDSU? That'll be the next spin.

Your absolutely right Shawn. This usually sums it up:

-NDSU does something good= Great vision and leadership

-NDSU does something bad= The media and UND alumni are holding us down. Its their fault, their jealous.

-UND does something good= You could not have done that without the great vision and leadership at NDSU. Just riding NDSU's coattails.

-UND does something bad= Poor leadership and vision at UND. Trying to cut corners and just be a follower.

My 3 year old nephew takes the same approach when comparing himself to his peers.

This is the mentality that the past leadership had at NDSU as well. If you weren't with them than they basically told you to !@#$ off it was Joe's way or Joe's way, thats the only two options. It worked for him, I won't deny he did great things for NDSU and North Dakota. But when you take that stance you have to understand people are going to jump on you for mistakes you make, not cause of jealousy but because along the way you told them to !@#$ off and did it your own way and now they are just returning the favor.

[MplsBison]

Let's go further inside the numbers.

At NDSU 3066 waivers, 14186 students: 21.6% on a waiver.

Let's talk dollars instead.

NDSU waivers: $11 million

UND waivers: $7 million

If NDSU went down from $11 million to $7 million in waivers that'd scale back 3066 to 1951 students.

That'd drop NDSU's enrollment by 1115, down from 14186 to 13071.

What's UND's enrollment? 13172.

Those numbers are interestingly close.

One might choose to argue that a decision was made by someone to give away $4 million extra of someone else's (ND taxpayers?) money to inflate NDSU's enrollment by 1115.

It would be wrong to assume that 3066 waivers means 3066 students had 100% of their tuition waived.

[MplsBison]

1. You're not going to win lots of friends in small town ND telling parents that they're paying tuition for someone other than a professor to be teaching their kid. (I'm from the realm that says you need to have a masters to teach folks working on a bachelors, and a doctorate to teach masters degree classes.)

2. You need those "more undergrads" to pay their tuition bill (which is a part of the shortfall per Dr. Hanson).

In my UND days there was a word for someone who didn't pay their tuition: Disenrolled.

Apparently the word for that at NDSU is: Headcount.

If NDSU and UND are going to join their peers at the U of MN, Wisc, etc. and have competing graduate/research programs, then they can't have it both ways.

There aren't enough Ph.D to go 'round if they've got to be in the classroom 20 hrs/week! We need those guys in the labs. Having a Ph.D teaching algebra and english 110 is not going to fly anymore.

[GeauxSioux]

It would be wrong to assume that 3066 waivers means 3066 students had 100% of their tuition waived.

Correlate, man, correlate.

[star2city]

It would be wrong to assume that 3066 waivers means 3066 students had 100% of their tuition waived.

So you're saying half the NDSU student population gets a 50% waiver?

Or nearly the whole enrollment gets a 25% wiaver?