Division 1 Transition: Precursor for Perennial Mediocrity?

[MplsBison]

Yes, you do. I was timed at 4.2 in the 40 yesterday.

Must be that sea level thing.

4.2 what? weeks?

[dj_hoime]

Well the Cal Poly win makes this a whole new topic!!

[Let'sGoHawks!]

This win negates the Sioux Falls loss. I can say I was one of the few hardcore fans at the game.

Great win for the program. GO SIOUX!

[breakin face]

Well the Cal Poly win makes this a whole new topic!!

It does now we will see how Sioux nation responds, will the attendance improve or will it stay mediocre despite the banner win for this program, I hope they come out in droves and its my face being broken.

[Woden]

Just because you're live in Florida does not automatically make you a better athlete than a person who lives in ND!

Shamen, meet Weston.

[SiouxMeNow]

...I am a little she-grinned at the way my character has been defamed throughout this topic.

idiot, meet dictionary

linky

[FargoBison]

Shamen, meet Weston.

Shamen was a pretty good athlete two knee surgeries ago.

[Westside]

Great post RD17... I had been wondering how SDSU got to where they are this year based on their mediocre past.

I've said all year that if the Bunnies can do it, there is absolutely no reason why UND can't. We all knew there would be ups & downs with the transition. The program just needs to ride everything out & stay committed to their long-term plan.

Yes, there have been a couple disappointing performances this yr, but I also really like what I saw in an inspired performance against USD & a come back win against a good Cal Poly team. I think that team showed alot of heart against CP, bouncing back after 2 disappointing games.

We have to remember that this is a very young football team, playing an increased level of competition.

Since the early/mid 90's UND has produced a tradition of excellence... We became accustomed to conference championships, deep playoff runs, contending for Nat'l Championships, minimum of 8-9 win seasons, etc. We never saw 20+ pt losses & .500 teams (exception of '02). I think the fans just need to realize that FCS is quite a step up & we weren't guaranteed the success of D2 just by stepping on the field. Now if the .500 seasons & disappointing losses continue to happen for 2 more years, then we'll have cause for concern. Do you I wish we were undefeated this year??? Hell yes!!! But, everyone needs to be realistic through the transition.

In this 2nd yr of transition, I'd much rather be in UND's position than USD's. I think the Sioux have definitely played a better schedule, had more quality wins & I feel the program in just in a better state than Coyotes... Better campus, facilties, tradition. I saw USD lost to Northern Colorado on Saturday... Ouch!!! Plus, we've pretty much owned them the last 15 years!

[Woden]

Shamen was a pretty good athlete two knee surgeries ago.

Yes he was and still is.

He just isn't half the football player that Weston is.

[Bison06]

Yes he was and still is.

He just isn't half the football player that Weston is.

I don't think any reasonable person would argue that statement one bit. I wish I knew more about the circumstances surrounding his recruitment to NDSU, did NDSU say "Shamen is better, let's not recruit Weston" or did NDSU and UND go after him equally and he chose UND(I can't imagine anyone making that decision ) Anybody have any insight into that?

[siouxhockeyfan11]

I don't think any reasonable person would argue that statement one bit. I wish I knew more about the circumstances surrounding his recruitment to NDSU, did NDSU say "Shamen is better, let's not recruit Weston" or did NDSU and UND go after him equally and he chose UND(I can't imagine anyone making that decision ) Anybody have any insight into that?

No insight but that made me laugh, I must be getting soft im starting to enjoy rivals fans jokes.

[mizzou/sioux]

No insight but that made me laugh, I must be getting soft im starting to enjoy rivals fans jokes.

I don't think we have any reason to panic. Furthermore, the loss to NAIA Sioux Falls in time isn't going to matter at all. Please give credit to the University of Sioux Falls as being one helluva football team. Their outstanding recent record proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. We take credit for playing superby well against a tough Texas Tech eleven that plays in the ever-tough Big XII South Division, arguably the toughest six-team division of any conference in the United State, and that includes the division Florida, Alabama and LSU play in of the Southeastern Conference. Then we turn around and pound ourselves when the shoe is on the other foot (when a team from a lower division excels over a team from an upper division).

I think RD 17 made an excellent analysis. However, I may beg to quibble with him somewhat regarding South Dakota State. Before the Bunnies went into a slump beginning in 1964 with the twin rise of the Sioux and the Bison (I believe between 1964 and 1977 one or the other or both of the North Dakota universities were football conference champions or co-champions), the Bunnies were repeatedly in the North Central Conference football race from the 1950s and early 60s, etc. If I recall right from my history, UNI and the Bunnies pretty much dominated the NCC in the 1940s and 1950s. I think SDSU had something like a dozen conference football titles (more than either UND or NDSU had at the time) when they won their final NCC football crown in 1963. As of 1963, I believe UND had nine football crowns and NDSU only three. So there was a time in bygone years when the Bunnies were a perennial threat.

The Bunnies aside, I agree with the concept of somewhat up-and-down happenings in transition years. However, it's clear SDSU has been doing a lot of things right in its transition. Give them credit for it.

As to recruiting success, I think a lot of it simply comes down to simply "win baby." I think the upset win over Cal Poly speaks volumes. That victory alone, even before a sparse crowd by usual standards, in my mind utterly cancels out any debris left over from the loss to Sioux Falls. It shows the team has resilience, a commodity you simply can't package. I also have faith in Coach Mussman. Having played football at Division I Iowa State, I think he knows what it takes to win in Division I football. Have a little patience.

Academics. Don't be fooled. UND has some of the best academics this part of the country knows. I don't know how many athletes are going to sign up for any of our famed aviation programs, but we have excellent academics. Former Sioux hockey head coach Dean Blais used excellent academic reputation of UND to draw in a number of recruits, and he was going up against the University of Minnesota, among other schools. I understand that former outstanding Sioux women's basketball player Jenny Crouse (after contacting former NDSU head women's basketball coach Amy Ruley first) enrolled at UND because of it s outstanding aviation programs.

Over on Bisonsportsnet there are attempts to move NDSU up to an FBS conference because on of the posters there feels the Missouri Valley Conference opponents of the Bison don't average enough in attendance to warrant further competition of the Bison in the MVC. Not sure I agree with the reasoning, but the information is out there.

It's tough to play second fiddle to men's hockey in terms of interest and attendance, I won't deny that. But let's let some of this play out. I think additional television exposure can't help but pay off in the long run. I was also interested in the Montana comparison of relating to sparsity of population and the number of D-I schools Montana and Montana State have to compete with. If anything, I think we have a population advantage over many of those western schools, considering we have the Twin Cities, Des Moines and Milwaukee to consider. Of course, adding a few speedsters from the South and West would also help tremendously.

Take heart, we'll get it done. I'm convinced of it. We've got too many assets such as good venues, outstanding academics and nationwide recognition in any number of areas. Maybe it took NDSU and SDSU to drag us into the future. I don't believe there is any way we can turn back to return to Division II. I see where in some areas in football the Great West Conference is rated second only to the Colonial Athletic Conference in terms of strength of conference football-wise.

Cheer up, and let the games begin.

[Woden]

I don't think any reasonable person would argue that statement one bit. I wish I knew more about the circumstances surrounding his recruitment to NDSU, did NDSU say "Shamen is better, let's not recruit Weston" or did NDSU and UND go after him equally and he chose UND(I can't imagine anyone making that decision ) Anybody have any insight into that?

Not sure if NDSU made the decision that "Shamen is better," but they weren't offering the money that UND was.

[TechFirst]

I don't claim to know much about recruiting in general, or teams moving up in classifications, and especially teams in your area and classification. But here's my $0.02 anyway based on the experiences of my alma mater.

Texas Tech has been mired in mediocrity for decades. Even in our better years we were always in a conference with better teams - Texas, A&M, Arkansas (Southwest Conf) and now UT, A&M, OU, Nebraska, etc. (Big 12). Lack of competitive recruiting always kept us from having the talent it took to play with the Big Boys.

But in the last few years our recruiting has improved dramatically. Part of it can be attributed to some new assistant coaches who are really good at recruiting, but I think a lot of it is because we've been winning more - AND WINNING BIG GAMES ON TV. Suddenly we're getting 3 and 4-star players from SEC territory who want to come play here. There's only one reason I can think of that they even know much about us - TV.

This is just a guess, but I'm thinking your TV contract will mean much more than just convenient viewing for you fans. That exposure is invaluable in getting your name out there (plus kids like playing on TV). How much would any of you know about USC, Nebraska, Notre Dame, etc if it weren't for TV exposure year after year? Did you even know Texas Tech existed until the last few years?

It's just my opinion, but I can't help but think that TV has let Tech take our game to a new level. Not only has the recruiting skyrocketed, but so have revenues. That means nicer facilities, etc which also helps recruiting. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. All you have to do is get it rolling......and don't screw up the chance.

[mizzou/sioux]

I don't claim to know much about recruiting in general, or teams moving up in classifications, and especially teams in your area and classification. But here's my $0.02 anyway based on the experiences of my alma mater.

Texas Tech has been mired in mediocrity for decades. Even in our better years we were always in a conference with better teams - Texas, A&M, Arkansas (Southwest Conf) and now UT, A&M, OU, Nebraska, etc. (Big 12). Lack of competitive recruiting always kept us from having the talent it took to play with the Big Boys.

But in the last few years our recruiting has improved dramatically. Part of it can be attributed to some new assistant coaches who are really good at recruiting, but I think a lot of it is because we've been winning more - AND WINNING BIG GAMES ON TV. Suddenly we're getting 3 and 4-star players from SEC territory who want to come play here. There's only one reason I can think of that they even know much about us - TV.

This is just a guess, but I'm thinking your TV contract will mean much more than just convenient viewing for you fans. That exposure is invaluable in getting your name out there (plus kids like playing on TV). How much would any of you know about USC, Nebraska, Notre Dame, etc if it weren't for TV exposure year after year? Did you even know Texas Tech existed until the last few years?

It's just my opinion, but I can't help but think that TV has let Tech take our game to a new level. Not only has the recruiting skyrocketed, but so have revenues. That means nicer facilities, etc which also helps recruiting. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. All you have to do is get it rolling......and don't screw up the chance.

Excellent analysis, I believe, TechFirst. Great piece of writing. Good post!

[RD17]

I don't think we have any reason to panic. Furthermore, the loss to NAIA Sioux Falls in time isn't going to matter at all. Please give credit to the University of Sioux Falls as being one helluva football team. Their outstanding recent record proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. We take credit for playing superby well against a tough Texas Tech eleven that plays in the ever-tough Big XII South Division, arguably the toughest six-team division of any conference in the United State, and that includes the division Florida, Alabama and LSU play in of the Southeastern Conference. Then we turn around and pound ourselves when the shoe is on the other foot (when a team from a lower division excels over a team from an upper division).

I think RD 17 made an excellent analysis. However, I may beg to quibble with him somewhat regarding South Dakota State. Before the Bunnies went into a slump beginning in 1964 with the twin rise of the Sioux and the Bison (I believe between 1964 and 1977 one or the other or both of the North Dakota universities were football conference champions or co-champions), the Bunnies were repeatedly in the North Central Conference football race from the 1950s and early 60s, etc. If I recall right from my history, UNI and the Bunnies pretty much dominated the NCC in the 1940s and 1950s. I think SDSU had something like a dozen conference football titles (more than either UND or NDSU had at the time) when they won their final NCC football crown in 1963. As of 1963, I believe UND had nine football crowns and NDSU only three. So there was a time in bygone years when the Bunnies were a perennial threat.

The Bunnies aside, I agree with the concept of somewhat up-and-down happenings in transition years. However, it's clear SDSU has been doing a lot of things right in its transition. Give them credit for it.

As to recruiting success, I think a lot of it simply comes down to simply "win baby." I think the upset win over Cal Poly speaks volumes. That victory alone, even before a sparse crowd by usual standards, in my mind utterly cancels out any debris left over from the loss to Sioux Falls. It shows the team has resilience, a commodity you simply can't package. I also have faith in Coach Mussman. Having played football at Division I Iowa State, I think he knows what it takes to win in Division I football. Have a little patience.

Academics. Don't be fooled. UND has some of the best academics this part of the country knows. I don't know how many athletes are going to sign up for any of our famed aviation programs, but we have excellent academics. Former Sioux hockey head coach Dean Blais used excellent academic reputation of UND to draw in a number of recruits, and he was going up against the University of Minnesota, among other schools. I understand that former outstanding Sioux women's basketball player Jenny Crouse (after contacting former NDSU head women's basketball coach Amy Ruley first) enrolled at UND because of it s outstanding aviation programs.

Over on Bisonsportsnet there are attempts to move NDSU up to an FBS conference because on of the posters there feels the Missouri Valley Conference opponents of the Bison don't average enough in attendance to warrant further competition of the Bison in the MVC. Not sure I agree with the reasoning, but the information is out there.

It's tough to play second fiddle to men's hockey in terms of interest and attendance, I won't deny that. But let's let some of this play out. I think additional television exposure can't help but pay off in the long run. I was also interested in the Montana comparison of relating to sparsity of population and the number of D-I schools Montana and Montana State have to compete with. If anything, I think we have a population advantage over many of those western schools, considering we have the Twin Cities, Des Moines and Milwaukee to consider. Of course, adding a few speedsters from the South and West would also help tremendously.

Take heart, we'll get it done. I'm convinced of it. We've got too many assets such as good venues, outstanding academics and nationwide recognition in any number of areas. Maybe it took NDSU and SDSU to drag us into the future. I don't believe there is any way we can turn back to return to Division II. I see where in some areas in football the Great West Conference is rated second only to the Colonial Athletic Conference in terms of strength of conference football-wise.

Cheer up, and let the games begin.

SDSU did have football success in the 40's and 50's, but so did Minnesota, Army and Navy. Point being that the success happened so long ago that it has gone from "tradition" to ancient history.

Your other points are very good and I agree with them. And as TechFirst also pointed out, UND's TV deal is going to be huge for recruiting. It will take an expansion of the recruiting base for UND to be successful in D-I and having a national TV contract will give the coaches a leg up on the competition. I live almost 700 miles from campus and my friends are shocked (and impressed) when I tell them I can watch UND football, basketball, and hockey live on local cable.

Also, the FCS level is not that much better than D-II. It's not as if UND needs to recruit the athletes to compete with Florida and USC.

[The Sicatoka]

I just had my "Ah-ha!" moment.

I was going through the UND FB roster looking for redshirt freshmen (RFr.) that I was going to say that I hoped would get lots of reps against S. Oregon. I had sorted the roster by year.

I started looking at names of RFr. and sadly, I already knew most of them because they're playing.

Finding that amazing, I scrolled down to the juniors and seniors. In the past there were names of Jr. and Sr. that I'd never seen before (because they didn't play) in that list. However, this time I recognize the name of ever senior and every junior because they are playing. I think I've seen all the Jr and Sr on the field.

Looking at sophomores, I think all but maybe three of them have seen the field.

And RFr, more have seen the field than not.

That tells me what is going on the field is very young relative to UND teams from earlier this decade. (Think about UND's 2001 team. I'm not sure any RFr. played, and not many So for that matter.)

Now, what are things that are common traits of young teams? Inconsistency? The occassional lack of focus? Occassionally lacking intensity? Wild swings from looking pitiful to looking like world-beaters? And dare I say "rookie mistakes"?

Any of that sound familiar to what we've seen this year?

I guess I'd call this "growing pains" or maybe "transition".

[RD17]

I just had my "Ah-ha!" moment.

I was going through the UND FB roster looking for redshirt freshmen (RFr.) that I was going to say that I hoped would get lots of reps against S. Oregon. I had sorted the roster by year.

I started looking at names of RFr. and sadly, I already knew most of them because they're playing.

Finding that amazing, I scrolled down to the juniors and seniors. In the past there were names of Jr. and Sr. that I'd never seen before (because they didn't play) in that list. However, this time I recognize the name of ever senior and every junior because they are playing. I think I've seen all the Jr and Sr on the field.

Looking at sophomores, I think all but maybe three of them have seen the field.

And RFr, more have seen the field than not.

That tells me what is going on the field is very young relative to UND teams from earlier this decade. (Think about UND's 2001 team. I'm not sure any RFr. played, and not many So for that matter.)

Now, what are things that are common traits of young teams? Inconsistency? The occassional lack of focus? Occassionally lacking intensity? Wild swings from looking pitiful to looking like world-beaters? And dare I say "rookie mistakes"?

Any of that sound familiar to what we've seen this year?

I guess I'd call this "growing pains" or maybe "transition".

I brought this up in the Cal Poly game thread, but it's worth repeating: For a good chunk of the game last week, UND had two RFr. (Lynch and McGurran) playing on the offensive line, a RFr. (Sutton) rush for 143 yards, and a true sophomore (Bamba) once again be the leading receiver. Not to mention that another RFr. (Wisthoff) was listed as the starter at TE. And that offense scored 24 points in just over two quarters against a ranked FCS team after not doing much the previous two weeks. Young, talented, and inconsistent.

If you look at the senior class, is there an impact player (i.e. someone whose talent will be hard to replace) outside of Bondy? I don't believe there is. And this is not a slam on any of the other seniors on the roster because I know several of them are good students that have set an example for the younger kids to follow by sticking with the program despite limited playing time.

The junior class is actually pretty decent (Boyle, Schwenzfeier, Ankebauer, Dublanko, Kasowski, Schroyer, Landry) and they should nicely bridge the gap until this class of RFr. and true freshmen are ready to lead the team coming out of the transition.

[UND92,96]

I brought this up in the Cal Poly game thread, but it's worth repeating: For a good chunk of the game last week, UND had two RFr. (Lynch and McGurran) playing on the offensive line, a RFr. (Sutton) rush for 143 yards, and a true sophomore (Bamba) once again be the leading receiver. Not to mention that another RFr. (Wisthoff) was listed as the starter at TE. And that offense scored 24 points in just over two quarters against a ranked FCS team after not doing much the previous two weeks. Young, talented, and inconsistent.

If you look at the senior class, is there an impact player (i.e. someone whose talent will be hard to replace) outside of Bondy? I don't believe there is. And this is not a slam on any of the other seniors on the roster because I know several of them are good students that have set an example for the younger kids to follow by sticking with the program despite limited playing time.

The junior class is actually pretty decent (Boyle, Schwenzfeier, Ankebauer, Dublanko, Kasowski, Schroyer, Landry) and they should nicely bridge the gap until this class of RFr. and true freshmen are ready to lead the team coming out of the transition.

In addition to Bondy, I believe the one sr. who may prove difficult to replace in terms of on-the-field performance is Hellevang. Hopefully either Cameron or Miller can be an adequate replacement.

[Shawn-O]

In addition to Bondy, I believe the one sr. who may prove difficult to replace in terms of on-the-field performance is Hellevang. Hopefully either Cameron or Miller can be an adequate replacement.

I somewhat see what you mean about Hellevang, but his kickoffs out of bounds this year are driving me up the wall.

[UND92,96]

I somewhat see what you mean about Hellevang, but his kickoffs out of bounds this year are driving me up the wall.

Agreed--I was mostly referring to his field goal kicking this year, which has been quite good.

[RD17]

In addition to Bondy, I believe the one sr. who may prove difficult to replace in terms of on-the-field performance is Hellevang. Hopefully either Cameron or Miller can be an adequate replacement.

True, Hellevang has been better this year. But right now, he averages 3 yards less per punt than does Cameron, and for his career Hellevang is just 25-53 on field goals 30 yards and out (inside of 30 is just a long PAT and should be close to automatic at the D-I level). When you add the fact that half his career games have been played indoors, those numbers are pretty weak.

[VMeister]

True, Hellevang has been better this year. But right now, he averages 3 yards less per punt than does Cameron, and for his career Hellevang is just 25-53 on field goals 30 yards and out (inside of 30 is just a long PAT and should be close to automatic at the D-I level). When you add the fact that half his career games have been played indoors, those numbers are pretty weak.

Has it ever been explained why Cameron is not punting all the time? Last spring it sounded like Hellevang was done punting; Cameron was the guy. Anyone know what changed?

[The Sicatoka]

Teams want the punt away in under 2.2 seconds after the snap.

Cameron is working on getting under that mark consistently. (That was a knock on the guy who punted before Hellevang also.)

[RD17]

Has it ever been explained why Cameron is not punting all the time? Last spring it sounded like Hellevang was done punting; Cameron was the guy. Anyone know what changed?

I believe the coaching staff's concern is that Cameron takes too long at times to get the punt off.

Edit: The Sicatoka beat me to it.