MJohnce Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Looking through the pictures of the Sioux/Red Raider game from the Tech Tech Athletic Department Facebook, I noticed the depictions of gun violence used in conjunction with their mascot. One tradition, refereed to as "Guns Up" is primarily used throughout the stadium. From website: The hand sign of Texas Tech is the "Guns Up" which was created in 1972 by a Texas Tech Graduate who was attending law school. The sign is made by extending the index finger outward while extending the thumb upward and tucking in the middle, little and fourth fingers to form a gun. The idea is that the Red Raiders will shoot down their opponents. The Guns Up sign is the widely recognized greeting of one Red Raider to another. It is also the sign of victory displayed by the crowd at every athletic event. Link I guess it is just another realm where I don't understand the NCAA's term of hostile/abusive. When it come to racial or ethnic origin mascots, then it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Looking through the pictures of the Sioux/Red Raider game from the Tech Tech Athletic Department Facebook, I noticed the depictions of gun violence used in conjunction with their mascot. One tradition, refereed to as "Guns Up" is primarily used throughout the stadium. From website: The hand sign of Texas Tech is the "Guns Up" which was created in 1972 by a Texas Tech Graduate who was attending law school. The sign is made by extending the index finger outward while extending the thumb upward and tucking in the middle, little and fourth fingers to form a gun. The idea is that the Red Raiders will shoot down their opponents. The Guns Up sign is the widely recognized greeting of one Red Raider to another. It is also the sign of victory displayed by the crowd at every athletic event. Link I guess it is just another realm where I don't understand the NCAA's term of hostile/abusive. When it come to racial or ethnic origin mascots, then it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Looking through the pictures of the Sioux/Red Raider game from the Tech Tech Athletic Department Facebook, I noticed the depictions of gun violence used in conjunction with their mascot. One tradition, refereed to as "Guns Up" is primarily used throughout the stadium. From website: The hand sign of Texas Tech is the "Guns Up" which was created in 1972 by a Texas Tech Graduate who was attending law school. The sign is made by extending the index finger outward while extending the thumb upward and tucking in the middle, little and fourth fingers to form a gun. The idea is that the Red Raiders will shoot down their opponents. The Guns Up sign is the widely recognized greeting of one Red Raider to another. It is also the sign of victory displayed by the crowd at every athletic event. Link I guess it is just another realm where I don't understand the NCAA's term of hostile/abusive. When it come to racial or ethnic origin mascots, then it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsowe Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 They are not promoting but I am surprised that the PC crowd has not jumped all over this because they do not like guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 They are not promoting but I am surprised that the PC crowd has not jumped all over this because they do not like guns. Nothing the P.C. crowd does makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Walrus Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 probably did not need this.... http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/132797/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxhog12 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Yea that article is pretty bad. I dont think that there is anyway that that article helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 probably did not need this.... http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/132797/ ... it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 And thus summarizes 90% of the problem. I agree, and in the unlikely event that tribal council approvals are obtained and a 30-year agreement is reached...scenarios like this never go away. Cook said the officials weren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I was also struck by the part about it not occurring to UND staff to discuss concerns proactively about how the imagery is used. That absolutely should have occurred to someone at UND. 'We discussed this issue before hand and they disregarded our concerns' would read a helluvalot better than "its impossible to control behavior of opposing teams." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND Fan Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 probably did not need this.... http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/132797/ This is likely the proverbial "kiss of death" for our retaining the nickname! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 This is likely the proverbial "kiss of death" for our retaining the nickname! The irony is that "Red Raider" originally referenced Apache raids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 This is likely the proverbial "kiss of death" for our retaining the nickname! I'm pretty sure that happened a long, long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the green team Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Matt, No offense but how in the world, can the Athletic Department, or the University for that matter, say to Texas Tech, "oh by the way I know our game is coming up this week. Can we take a look at what your printing up for the game..." This simply doesn't seem feasible. So if we did that in this instance wouldn't we then have to do it where ever we played. The time involved to dedicate someone to deal with this on a game to game basis simply doesn't add up. It is horrible that this happened. Honestly, I believe Texas Tech when they said they didn't realize (it just goes to show you how silly the p.c. argument has gotten around here, because apparently it hasn't even registerred in Lubbock) --don't get me wrong, it doesn't make it right. But I can't with good conscience dump this on anyone at UND's lap--they didn't decide to print up this. Chalk it up as a bad/misguided idea by those at Texas Tech--and that's that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I like the drawing. Even though it is not PC but it shows how i don't care about being PC. I just didn't like us running away from Red Raider and his posse. But an Indian on a horse gee don't we have a statue of that outside the Ralph?? If the PCers get all bent out of shape over a drawing like this they can go f--- themselves. I hope the SR accepts the pipe ceremony so we can put this nickname issue behind us. Just think if the drawing had Chief Wahoo (Cleveland Indian's logo) on a horse. Oh i am a fan of the Indians so i like Chief Wahoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Hadn't given it any thought whatsoever, but now that you mention it I do see the irony. An indian head logo is hostile and abusive but it's perfectly acceptable to simulate shooting opponents? Now, don't misunderstand me... as much as I detest guns I'm not going to start a crusade to end Texas Tech's tradition. I'm just saying if this is okay then damnit the UND logo should also be okay. Don't be silly it's metaphorical, they aren't promoting hostile and abusive behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechFirst Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Pardon me for sticking my nose into your business, but I was wondering about your logo and/or mascot change since I saw reference to it a couple weeks ago. Is it true that a change was requested by the NCAA? I wonder if they asked Utah to drop the Utes or Fla St to drop the Seminoles? Or is this just selective PC? I feel somewhat qualified to ask because I'm a voting member of the Creek Indian Nation, complete with a tribal roll number certified by the almighty Feds. (Actually I'm just a half-breed, but I got a number anyway.) Anyway, just curious if y'all were actually changing your team name. And BTW, I have absolutely no problem with the use of Indian names on sports teams. Unlike some groups, I don't hold a personal grudge because of what happened between a bunch of people that all died long before I was born. As for Tech, I guess PC doesn't mean much to most folks in Texas. To use a local phrase, they can stick that stuff where the moon don't shine as far as I'm concerned. GUNS UP!! And keep on fighting, Fighting Sioux!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Pardon me for sticking my nose into your business, but I was wondering about your logo and/or mascot change since I saw reference to it a couple weeks ago. Is it true that a change was requested by the NCAA? I wonder if they asked Utah to drop the Utes or Fla St to drop the Seminoles? Or is this just selective PC? I feel somewhat qualified to ask because I'm a voting member of the Creek Indian Nation, complete with a tribal roll number certified by the almighty Feds. (Actually I'm just a half-breed, but I got a number anyway.) Anyway, just curious if y'all were actually changing your team name. And BTW, I have absolutely no problem with the use of Indian names on sports teams. Unlike some groups, I don't hold a personal grudge because of what happened between a bunch of people that all died long before I was born. As for Tech, I guess PC doesn't mean much to most folks in Texas. To use a local phrase, they can stick that stuff where the moon don't shine as far as I'm concerned. GUNS UP!! And keep on fighting, Fighting Sioux!! Dude, this whole section of this posting board is dedicated to the subject, hence the "Sioux Name" forum name. Summary: About five years ago the NCAA created a list of monikers it found "hostile and abusive". Those schools had to either i) change the name, ii) get tribal approval to use the name, or iii) face sanctions like no home playoff games and having to have special uniforms w/o words like "Sioux". FSU and Utah have tribal approval. Illinois got special dispensation because in "NCAA logic" (yes, an oxymoron) Illini derives from the state name (even though the state was named for the Illini tribal confederations). UND is trying to get approval from the ND tribes (two). Central Michigan got approval from one of five Michigan Chippewa tribes and that was enough, yet UND needs both. Yes, more "NCAA logic". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Pardon me for sticking my nose into your business, but I was wondering about your logo and/or mascot change since I saw reference to it a couple weeks ago. Is it true that a change was requested by the NCAA? I wonder if they asked Utah to drop the Utes or Fla St to drop the Seminoles? Or is this just selective PC? I feel somewhat qualified to ask because I'm a voting member of the Creek Indian Nation, complete with a tribal roll number certified by the almighty Feds. (Actually I'm just a half-breed, but I got a number anyway.) Anyway, just curious if y'all were actually changing your team name. And BTW, I have absolutely no problem with the use of Indian names on sports teams. Unlike some groups, I don't hold a personal grudge because of what happened between a bunch of people that all died long before I was born. As for Tech, I guess PC doesn't mean much to most folks in Texas. To use a local phrase, they can stick that stuff where the moon don't shine as far as I'm concerned. GUNS UP!! And keep on fighting, Fighting Sioux!! I like it Guns up. Nice post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Matt, No offense but how in the world, can the Athletic Department, or the University for that matter, say to Texas Tech, "oh by the way I know our game is coming up this week. Can we take a look at what your printing up for the game..." This simply doesn't seem feasible. So if we did that in this instance wouldn't we then have to do it where ever we played. The time involved to dedicate someone to deal with this on a game to game basis simply doesn't add up. It is horrible that this happened. Honestly, I believe Texas Tech when they said they didn't realize (it just goes to show you how silly the p.c. argument has gotten around here, because apparently it hasn't even registerred in Lubbock) --don't get me wrong, it doesn't make it right. But I can't with good conscience dump this on anyone at UND's lap--they didn't decide to print up this. Chalk it up as a bad/misguided idea by those at Texas Tech--and that's that. Ask them to use the official logo as the only authorized imagery. Give the short story of the problem with the NCAA and the nickname. Let them know any use of NA imagery will be highly scrutinized because of the lawsuit. If UND is serious about keeping the name (I have my doubts) this will be their ongoing burden in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the green team Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 It still adds up to, we can't control what other entities or institutions or fans or students do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Ask them to use the official logo as the only authorized imagery. Give the short story of the problem with the NCAA and the nickname. Let them know any use of NA imagery will be highly scrutinized because of the lawsuit. If UND is serious about keeping the name (I have my doubts) this will be their ongoing burden in the future. So what happens when some student group prints up t-shirts that are found to be "inappropriate"? Is Pete Johnson going to give them a scolding via the student newspaper? I believe your take above is a good one, this is a shot across the bow from the UND administration that they want this issue to go away. Otherwise they would've stayed mum on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Ask them to use the official logo as the only authorized imagery. Technically, TT didn't do that. They'd farmed that product out to a supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Okay, people are fine with it. But what about the horses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 We should never play TT again, in any sport. We can't have people stroking out over something so terrible. /sarcasm off Asking other schools to abide by some asinine protocol so a few delicate souls don't get their little feelings hurt? Really? Let's just fold the football and hockey teams, and field a rythmic gymnastics team instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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