InMed, etc.

[Telly33]

I heard some statistics a while back about American Indian physicians in the United States. It was something like 25%+ were UND grads. Does anyone have a link to the figures on the free rides UND gives to Indians at the school or any other pertinent stats of Indian graduates from UND?

If the name gets changed I don't see any realistic reason why Indians should continue to get free rides at UND just by virtue of being born with their ethnicity.

It maybe sounds callous, but I don't care. Frankly I never agreed with Indians getting free schooling in the first place, but especially not if we lose the nickname.

In my perfect world we just spell it out to the tribes that the programs die with the nickname.

[siouxforeverbaby]

I heard some statistics a while back about American Indian physicians in the United States. It was something like 25%+ were UND grads. Does anyone have a link to the figures on the free rides UND gives to Indians at the school or any other pertinent stats of Indian graduates from UND?

If the name gets changed I don't see any realistic reason why Indians should continue to get free rides at UND just by virtue of being born with their ethnicity.

It maybe sounds callous, but I don't care. Frankly I never agreed with Indians getting free schooling in the first place, but especially not if we lose the nickname.

In my perfect world we just spell it out to the tribes that the programs die with the nickname.

Except most of the programs are funded by federal grants....UND wants the grant money...they have to spend it the way that the government says to. And unless you contact the school, I don't think there is a link like that....it may fall under information that cannot be given out to the public.

[Siouxstudent1]

I heard some statistics a while back about American Indian physicians in the United States. It was something like 25%+ were UND grads. Does anyone have a link to the figures on the free rides UND gives to Indians at the school or any other pertinent stats of Indian graduates from UND?

If the name gets changed I don't see any realistic reason why Indians should continue to get free rides at UND just by virtue of being born with their ethnicity.

It maybe sounds callous, but I don't care. Frankly I never agreed with Indians getting free schooling in the first place, but especially not if we lose the nickname.

In my perfect world we just spell it out to the tribes that the programs die with the nickname.

http://www.und.nodak.edu/dept/aiss/scholarships.html

There is other information about the programs but this should answer part of your original question.

[redwing77]

Uh....

No. I don't care what happens with the nickname, the programs should remain.

However, here's what I'd do:

UND is in the perfect position to use a number of PR related excuses that aren't nickname related to accomplish these as well.

First thing I'd do, if the Federal grant money earmarked for NA higher ed doesn't increase (as it pertains directly to UND), UND shouldn't invest any more than it already does in NA higher ed. With the nickname gone, there really is no incentive to treat NA students with any more honor or respect than any other ethnicity, caucasian included. Spending more on them than the caucasian students doesn't spell equality. It spells favoritism. The built in excuse is that, with this economy, UND doesn't have the money to expand on any one particular program over another.

Second thing is, the tribes should be brought more into NA responsibilities. The NA Cultural Center and its employees should be paid by the tribes, not by UND (unless federal funding goes into that too). I don't see a Caucasian Cultural Center. I'm not even sure there's an African American Cultural Center...

Third, to ensure that no NA symbols are wrongfully handled in the nickname change, the Tribes should supervise the process. Since they are supervising the process, they should pay said supervisors, pay disposal fees (all costs incurred during the removal process of the symbols from the University and REA), and lost merchandise fees (loss of money due to inventory already made that cannot be sold). UND would then be responsible for the costs of creating and producing new merchandise, and replacing whatever symbols etc that were removed.

I'm not sure that was very clear, but let's put it this way: There is a large Sioux logo in the entrance way of the REA. The NA tribes will pay for its removal, leaving a whatever sized hole in the concrete/marble flooring. UND would then take over financial responsibility for replacing the flooring with whatever, be it the new logo or just matching concrete/marble.

Does this produce hardships on the tribes? Yes, but the nickname is, by NCAA decree, THEIR nickname. So why should we pay for its removal? UND cannot be held responsible for third party property, even if it is now embedded in the flooring of their or cooperating facilities.

[siouxprideforever]

Uh....

No. I don't care what happens with the nickname, the programs should remain.

However, here's what I'd do:

UND is in the perfect position to use a number of PR related excuses that aren't nickname related to accomplish these as well.

First thing I'd do, if the Federal grant money earmarked for NA higher ed doesn't increase (as it pertains directly to UND), UND shouldn't invest any more than it already does in NA higher ed. With the nickname gone, there really is no incentive to treat NA students with any more honor or respect than any other ethnicity, caucasian included. Spending more on them than the caucasian students doesn't spell equality. It spells favoritism. The built in excuse is that, with this economy, UND doesn't have the money to expand on any one particular program over another.

Second thing is, the tribes should be brought more into NA responsibilities. The NA Cultural Center and its employees should be paid by the tribes, not by UND (unless federal funding goes into that too). I don't see a Caucasian Cultural Center. I'm not even sure there's an African American Cultural Center...

Third, to ensure that no NA symbols are wrongfully handled in the nickname change, the Tribes should supervise the process. Since they are supervising the process, they should pay said supervisors, pay disposal fees (all costs incurred during the removal process of the symbols from the University and REA), and lost merchandise fees (loss of money due to inventory already made that cannot be sold). UND would then be responsible for the costs of creating and producing new merchandise, and replacing whatever symbols etc that were removed.

I'm not sure that was very clear, but let's put it this way: There is a large Sioux logo in the entrance way of the REA. The NA tribes will pay for its removal, leaving a whatever sized hole in the concrete/marble flooring. UND would then take over financial responsibility for replacing the flooring with whatever, be it the new logo or just matching concrete/marble.

Does this produce hardships on the tribes? Yes, but the nickname is, by NCAA decree, THEIR nickname. So why should we pay for its removal? UND cannot be held responsible for third party property, even if it is now embedded in the flooring of their or cooperating facilities.

Yah, I think we ought to just take our puck and go home! We don't want to play with them anyway! Damn rule makers, we should just start our own league, maybe we should sue them. Then we could call ourselves - The Fighting Suers!

[Big A HG]

If PRO-Sioux nicknamers (like myself) decide to treat the Native Americans with disrespect after the nickname is dropped, all it will do is prove the ANTI-Sioux nicknamers right.

If anything, after the nickname is dropped, we should all support them even more, just to prove that we meant well with the nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

If PRO-Sioux nicknamers (like myself) decide to treat the Native Americans with disrespect after the nickname is dropped, all it will do is prove the ANTI-Sioux nicknamers right.

If anything, after the nickname is dropped, we should all support them even more, just to prove that we meant well with the nickname.

I agree. We all need to act like Denny Green and take the high road. Most of us are adults and we should act like it.

[siouxprideforever]

If PRO-Sioux nicknamers (like myself) decide to treat the Native Americans with disrespect after the nickname is dropped, all it will do is prove the ANTI-Sioux nicknamers right.

If anything, after the nickname is dropped, we should all support them even more, just to prove that we meant well with the nickname.

[/quote

Great point! If we stand back and realized that as proven at Spirit Lake, the majority of the folks on the reservation either don't care or are in favor of the nickname, we will understand that his is a political issue played in a small arena by very few individuals. Obviously, it is our perrogative to react as we see fit, however - to paint a broad brush and jump to the conclusion that all Native Americans are at fault and should be held accountable would in my mind pre-judge them. Not necessarily the high road.

[Blackheart]

Great point! If we stand back and realized that as proven at Spirit Lake, the majority of the folks on the reservation either don't care or are in favor of the nickname, we will understand that his is a political issue played in a small arena by very few individuals. Obviously, it is our perrogative to react as we see fit, however - to paint a broad brush and jump to the conclusion that all Native Americans are at fault and should be held accountable would in my mind pre-judge them. Not necessarily the high road.

I don't paint with a broad brush and blame the Native Americans. But people like Ron His Horse is Thunder should/will eventually be held accountable for his actions/inactions. By refusing to allow a vote, or acknowledge the results of a vote of his constituents, he will eventually will be kicked to the curb and rightly so.

[redwing77]

I agree with the treatment of NA people being respectful.

But I also advocate that we listen to what they want. they want to be treated as equals to everyone else. Well, right now they're not. I didn't have a Jewish or Caucasian Cultural Center on campus. Heck, I didn't even have a synnagogue even close to campus!

But the NA people have a cultural center.

Does UND have a Caucasian Studies program? A Jewish Studies program? A program for Jews or Caucasians to help them get into and through Med School like InMed? Relaxed GPA requirements in certain high need areas for Jewish and/or Caucasian ethnicities?

No.

So, in effect, NA students are treated BETTER than I was at UND. Those who talk about enrollment being so low at UND need to look outside of UND rather than at UND in that regards. I don't see how UND's enrollment could go higher if less than 60 percent of NA students in North Dakota (less than 50% in SD) are even graduating high school.

When the nickname changes, I DO expect some UND students to act completely and totally retarded and give us PRO nicknamers a bad name. I'd be SHOCKED if it didn't happen. Like it or not, the 1% defines the whole when it comes to Ron His Horse Is Thunder and his crew.

The vote proved that not all NA people are the victim mentality types. Not all NA people keep their heads in the sand.

I want NA life to improve, but everything starts at home. And THAT is something that has NOTHING to do with ethnicity. I see it every day with people whose kids I teach. My school is very diverse with NA, African American, Asian American, African immigrant/Refuge, Mexican/Central/South American, and Caucasian ethnicities present. We are mostly Christian with a few Muslim. I am the only Jew I'm aware of at my school. Oh, and almost 50% of our students are on free or reduced lunch.

[Goon]

Great point! If we stand back and realized that as proven at Spirit Lake, the majority of the folks on the reservation either don't care or are in favor of the nickname, we will understand that his is a political issue played in a small arena by very few individuals. Obviously, it is our perrogative to react as we see fit, however - to paint a broad brush and jump to the conclusion that all Native Americans are at fault and should be held accountable would in my mind pre-judge them. Not necessarily the high road.

I don't paint with a broad brush and blame the Native Americans. But people like Ron His Horse is Thunder should/will eventually be held accountable for his actions/inactions. By refusing to allow a vote, or acknowledge the results of a vote of his constituents, he will eventually will be kicked to the curb and rightly so.

Maybe RHT will be voted out of office, that would be an awesome result. Actions have consequences.

[Sioux-cia]

If PRO-Sioux nicknamers (like myself) decide to treat the Native Americans with disrespect after the nickname is dropped, all it will do is prove the ANTI-Sioux nicknamers right.

If anything, after the nickname is dropped, we should all support them even more, just to prove that we meant well with the nickname.

Well said! Kudos to you, grasshopper!

[ringneck28]

Uh....

No. I don't care what happens with the nickname, the programs should remain.

However, here's what I'd do:

UND is in the perfect position to use a number of PR related excuses that aren't nickname related to accomplish these as well.

First thing I'd do, if the Federal grant money earmarked for NA higher ed doesn't increase (as it pertains directly to UND), UND shouldn't invest any more than it already does in NA higher ed. With the nickname gone, there really is no incentive to treat NA students with any more honor or respect than any other ethnicity, caucasian included. Spending more on them than the caucasian students doesn't spell equality. It spells favoritism. The built in excuse is that, with this economy, UND doesn't have the money to expand on any one particular program over another.

Second thing is, the tribes should be brought more into NA responsibilities. The NA Cultural Center and its employees should be paid by the tribes, not by UND (unless federal funding goes into that too). I don't see a Caucasian Cultural Center. I'm not even sure there's an African American Cultural Center...

Third, to ensure that no NA symbols are wrongfully handled in the nickname change, the Tribes should supervise the process. Since they are supervising the process, they should pay said supervisors, pay disposal fees (all costs incurred during the removal process of the symbols from the University and REA), and lost merchandise fees (loss of money due to inventory already made that cannot be sold). UND would then be responsible for the costs of creating and producing new merchandise, and replacing whatever symbols etc that were removed.

I'm not sure that was very clear, but let's put it this way: There is a large Sioux logo in the entrance way of the REA. The NA tribes will pay for its removal, leaving a whatever sized hole in the concrete/marble flooring. UND would then take over financial responsibility for replacing the flooring with whatever, be it the new logo or just matching concrete/marble.

Does this produce hardships on the tribes? Yes, but the nickname is, by NCAA decree, THEIR nickname. So why should we pay for its removal? UND cannot be held responsible for third party property, even if it is now embedded in the flooring of their or cooperating facilities.

The other action that all UND supporters should do is boycott Prairie Knights Casino by all means. I suggest instead of heading south for your casino fun, head north to either the Spirit Lake Casino or to Four Bears. I don't know how much money the Standing Rock Tribe makes off of these casino's, but I am not going to support anything to do with the Standing Rock tribe. They are planning on expanding, well, lets send a message that it is not needed. I will not step foot on the Standing Rock Reservation.

[sdhoops]

I heard some statistics a while back about American Indian physicians in the United States. It was something like 25%+ were UND grads. Does anyone have a link to the figures on the free rides UND gives to Indians at the school or any other pertinent stats of Indian graduates from UND?

If the name gets changed I don't see any realistic reason why Indians should continue to get free rides at UND just by virtue of being born with their ethnicity.

It maybe sounds callous, but I don't care. Frankly I never agreed with Indians getting free schooling in the first place, but especially not if we lose the nickname.

In my perfect world we just spell it out to the tribes that the programs die with the nickname.

Wow, if that isn't the most racist/prejudiced thing I ever read. Jealous because you had to pay for school with loans because YOU didn't get GOOD enough grades to get academic scholarships. I'm Native American and Lakota, and yet where's all this free schooling your talking about? Sign me up for it.

[redwing77]

Wow, if that isn't the most racist/prejudiced thing I ever read. Jealous because you had to pay for school with loans because YOU didn't get GOOD enough grades to get academic scholarships. I'm Native American and Lakota, and yet where's all this free schooling your talking about? Sign me up for it.

Yeah, it was pretty prejudiced, but I'm tired of the word "racist."

Everyone here knows that racist is, itself a racist term. I've not yet met a NA racist or an African American racist or any other ethnicity being racist other than whites. If only one ethnicity can be something negative, isn't that racism?

[fourwindsboy]

As an enrolled member of the SLT, I feel this isssue should not have been voted on by the tribal members. Our constitution says that only issues that have a direct economic, financial or cultural impact on our people can be put to a vote. No, this issue has nothing to do with our traditions and sacred rituals. All it has done is create divisivness on our rez. Our tribal council did a poor job of interpreting our constitution. This whole voting issue would be analogous to the Miller Brewing Company approaching our tribe and wanting us to vote for "taste great" or "less filling". I applaud Ron HHT and the Standing Rock Tribal Council for not voting on this fiasco.

[dmksioux]

As an enrolled member of the SLT, I feel this isssue should not have been voted on by the tribal members. Our constitution says that only issues that have a direct economic, financial or cultural impact on our people can be put to a vote. No, this issue has nothing to do with our traditions and sacred rituals. All it has done is create divisivness on our rez. Our tribal council did a poor job of interpreting our constitution. This whole voting issue would be analogous to the Miller Brewing Company approaching our tribe and wanting us to vote for "taste great" or "less filling". I applaud Ron HHT and the Standing Rock Tribal Council for not voting on this fiasco.

So what your saying is it doesn't matter and has nothing to do with your tribe, then why are the Councils so adamant about ending the name?

It may be divisive because a minority of people of the two tribes are making it divisive. As far as it not having a cultural impact, my opinion is that it does and that it could have more. An example is when enrolled members of the tribe do a dance prior to an athletic event. This is something that exposes fans, both home and visitors, to the Native American culture that they may not have been aware of before. Maybe it sparks someone's interest to learn more about the Sioux Culture, maybe it doesn't. Has UND and the Sioux Tribes taken advantage of exposing the Sioux Culture in a positive aspect? Depending on who ask you will get a variety of answers. Could UND do more to work with the Tribes to explore the possibilities? Certainly. The issue is divisive because certain people have agendas and don't even want to come to the table to explore opportunities before making a decision on whether the name is good or not.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that according to public opinion on the reservations, there seems to be consensus that the Nickname is supported. Why wouldn't the tribal councils want to at least come to the table and talk about opportunities keeping the name may provide for the tribe (and I'm not necessarily referring to "Buying off the Tribe"). If the two sides at least act like adults and attempt some dialogue and ultimately can't come to a compromise, then fine drop the name. Why is Ron HHT so afraid to at least talk?

[The Sicatoka]

Our constitution says that only issues that have a direct economic, financial or cultural impact on our people can be put to a vote.

I can't let you play this one both ways:

You can't claim this impacts the Sioux people's culture (name does harm to Sioux people is claim) and yet claim it shouldn't have been put to a vote.

Pick one and stick to it please.

[fourwindsboy]

I can't let you play this one both ways:

You can't claim this impacts the Sioux people's culture (name does harm to Sioux people is claim) and yet claim it shouldn't have been put to a vote.

Pick one and stick to it please.

Where do I say it has an impact?? Another thing you people don't realize is that the vote among the council was 3-2 in favor of voting but from what I hear it was very close to being 3-2 in favor of not voting. And to dmksioux, i'll say it again, this has nothing to do with the rituals, ceremonies and language of my people. For you to suggest that it does is an insult. A good rule of thumb is that if Dakota Culture and Wasicu's(white's) are in the same sentence, then it has zero to do with our culture. By the way, we don't do a dance before every athletic event.

[The Sicatoka]

Where do I say it has an impact??

If it has no impact, why do you bother?

[dmksioux]

And to dmksioux, i'll say it again, this has nothing to do with the rituals, ceremonies and language of my people. For you to suggest that it does is an insult. A good rule of thumb is that if Dakota Culture and Wasicu's(white's) are in the same sentence, then it has zero to do with our culture. By the way, we don't do a dance before every athletic event.

I understand that it's not done at every athletic event. I was suggesting that it has been done at some of the events which may have sparked some people's interest in the Sioux Culture. My post was to suggest that the "powers that be" at least have dialogue to see if there is any common ground. Perhaps there is an opportunity where education about Native Culture can take place. Perhaps there isn't. It seems as though the minority on the Reservation wants nothing to do with at least attempting dialogue which is what I have a tough time with...especially since 67% of people representing the tribe seem to support the name. If an honest attempt at dialogue occured and no agreements or compromises could be made then drop it. From my perspective, it appears that the vocal minority just want it dropped to "prove their point" (whatever the point is) and "to win" to show that they were right.

To address your comment about "a good rule of thumb"...Isn't that comment in and of it's self "divisive." How do you exepect "whites" to undertand the Native culture if you can't even put the two together in a sentence.

I will miss the Sioux name and the tradition of the name being associated to UND. Has the name always been used in a positive/honorable manner...no, but I feel the way the logo and name have evolved throughout the years is a testement to education that has been done. Education that probably wouldn't have taken place without the nickname as the catalyst. I would like to see an open dialogue where both sides talk about the issues prior to it being retired...unfortunately that doesn't seem possible. I am not vindictive nor will I carry a grudge if/when the name is retired. I would just like to see an honest attempt at dialogue made.

[Goon]

Where do I say it has an impact?? Another thing you people don't realize is that the vote among the council was 3-2 in favor of voting but from what I hear it was very close to being 3-2 in favor of not voting. And to dmksioux, i'll say it again, this has nothing to do with the rituals, ceremonies and language of my people. For you to suggest that it does is an insult. A good rule of thumb is that if Dakota Culture and Wasicu's(white's) are in the same sentence, then it has zero to do with our culture. By the way, we don't do a dance before every athletic event.

Way to stay classy I noticed you like to divide people all of the time.

[DamStrait]

Why try to engage in discussion someone that is on record as stating that the principle reason he wants the name changed is to "stick it to whitey"? He isn't worth it.

[dmksioux]

Why try to engage in discussion someone that is on record as stating that the principle reason he wants the name changed is to "stick it to whitey"? He isn't worth it.

That was my point of what I don't understand. I was asking Four Winds Boy why there isn't even an attempt at some honest dialogue before a decision is made...one way or the other. I guess I haven't seen it printed that the reason the minority wants to change the name is to "stick it to whitey." Perhaps that's the underlying reason, but I have yet to hear a response as to why the Tribal Council is refusing to even engage in dialogue/come to the table?

[DamStrait]

That was my point of what I don't understand. I was asking Four Winds Boy why there isn't even an attempt at some honest dialogue before a decision is made...one way or the other. I guess I haven't seen it printed that the reason the minority wants to change the name is to "stick it to whitey." Perhaps that's the underlying reason, but I have yet to hear a response as to why the Tribal Council is refusing to even engage in dialogue/come to the table?

Not "they" - "he".