2009 NCAA Tournament

[Herd]

This is a good year to play Kansas. As a bb fan I may go. Never been to a tourney game.

If I go I will wear a Sioux jersey. The Sioux may be in the Summit someday. I hope so.

But when you look at the Summit compared to the other conferences in the country I'm afraid

it doesn't rank that high. It's an average or below average conference. And you know what Paul Harvey said about being average.

It means your the best of the louiest, and the lousiest of the best.

It made me wonder since neither UND or NDSU has never won a D2 mens BB Champiosship

is it more difficult to win a D2 Championship or to win the Summit in BB.

Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6. You can mail it in at just above .500 and boom . . . final five . . get a hot goalie boom . . . ncaa tournament. You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. If the gophers happen to get in this year, case in point. It seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey, espcially where MN is concerned. Just an outsiders view.

[Matt]

Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6. You can mail it in at just above .500 and boom . . . final five . . get a hot goalie boom . . . ncaa tournament. You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. If the gophers happen to get in this year, case in point. It seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey, espcially where MN is concerned. Just an outsiders view.

oh dear God, here we go...

[star2city]

Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6.

Tournaments are a crapshoot, especially if the conference winner doesn't host. The Summit doesn't give the regular season conference winner home field. Valpo last decade and Oral Roberts recently have benefited from the location of the tournament.

Oakland went to the NCAAs in 2005 from the Summit after a record of 13-19 (7-9 in the then Mid-Con). UMKC almost won the Summit tournament a few years ago after not even winning ten games.

Losing teams have gone to the NCAA basketball tournament a number of times, and will again.

Oakland in 2005 was the #65 seed and was the last Summit team to win, winning the play-in game.

Valp in 1998 was the last Summit team to win a first-round game. Valpo in 1998 and Cleveland State in 1986 were the only Summit schools ever to make the Sweet Sixteen.

Summit Basketball - NCAA History

1986 Cleveland State 14† defeated Indiana, defeated Saint Joseph's, lost to Navy

1987 Southwest Missouri State[5] 13 defeated Clemson, lost to Kansas

1988 Southwest Missouri State 13 lost to UNLV

1989 Southwest Missouri State 14 lost to Seton Hall

1990 Southwest Missouri State 9 lost to North Carolina

Northern Iowa 14 defeated Missouri, lost to Minnesota

1991 Wisconsin-Green Bay 12 lost to Michigan State

Northern Illinois 13† lost to St. John's

1992 Eastern Illinois 15 lost to Indiana

1993 Wright State 16 lost to Indiana

1994 UW-Green Bay 12 defeated California, lost to Syracuse

1995 none

1996 Valparaiso 14 lost to Arizona

1997 Valparaiso 12 lost to Boston College

1998 Valparaiso 13 defeated Ole Miss, defeated Florida State, lost to Rhode Island

1999 Valparaiso 15 lost to Maryland

2000 Valparaiso 16 lost to Michigan State

2001 Southern Utah 14 lost to Boston College

2002 Valparaiso 13 lost to Kentucky

2003 IUPUI 16 lost to Kentucky

2004 Valparaiso 15 lost to Gonzaga

2005 Oakland 16 defeated Alabama A&M‡, Lost to North Carolina

2006 Oral Roberts 16 lost to Memphis

2007 Oral Roberts 14 lost to Washington State

2008 Oral Roberts 13 lost to Pittsburgh

2009 North Dakota State 14 against Kansas

[krangodance]

it's called parity, something division one college basketball is lacking more than any other sport at any level. even college football has A and AA among it's division one teams and that still lacks parity compared to college hockey.

as a season goes, college hockey is way more exciting than college basketball because anyone can truly win any game and seeding moves a lot throughout the season, even up until the last week of the conference tournaments.

that being said, if ndsu wins even one game in the ncaa tournament, that's quite an accomplishment, especially for the first year they're eligible for the tournament.

but, summit league? come one, let's not get so cocky just yet. you're barely better than a big city's high school basketball team. don't compare this accomplishment to what the sioux hockey team has done, it makes you look ridiculous.

[Oxbow6]

Phil Jackson would score 50 points against Lucas Moorman.

Phil's parents use to babysit my mom and my aunt and my uncle, so don't tell me he'd score 50 'cause I know he'd get at least 60!!

Was just trying to make a point awhile back that this SU BB team is very good and one of the best college team's to come out of ND.

[moser53]

Phil's parents use to babysit my mom and my aunt and my uncle, so don't tell me he'd score 50 'cause I know he'd get at least 60!!

Was just trying to make a point awhile back that this SU BB team is very good and one of the best college team's to come out of ND.

Jackson was that good and he wasn't the only good player back then. SU had a good one in Ron Schlieman.

He scored 50 points against former NBA great Elvin Hayes in Houston at the Astrodome. I believe he had 24 field goals which

may still be the record at SU. What a great accomplishment. Still I don't think SU beat the Sioux much during Jacksons era.

[Matt]

it's called parity, something division one college basketball is lacking more than any other sport at any level. even college football has A and AA among it's division one teams and that still lacks parity compared to college hockey.

as a season goes, college hockey is way more exciting than college basketball because anyone can truly win any game and seeding moves a lot throughout the season, even up until the last week of the conference tournaments.

that being said, if ndsu wins even one game in the ncaa tournament, that's quite an accomplishment, especially for the first year they're eligible for the tournament.

but, summit league? come one, let's not get so cocky just yet. you're barely better than a big city's high school basketball team. don't compare this accomplishment to what the sioux hockey team has done, it makes you look ridiculous.

I wish my fellow Sioux hockey fans would stop espousing their preference for hockey by denigrating the Summit and/or the BB tournament. Do you realize this is the outcome we are hoping for when the Sioux men are eligible? You clearly enjoy college hockey and that's great. So do I. I will be attending the final five and watching BB on TV. However, if most folks thought college hockey is "way more exciting that college basketball" the WCHA Final Five would be a national TV game like The Summit title game, instead of a regional game. The day the Sioux men's BB team makes the tourney they will be getting more national exposure than the frozen four. NDSU's point guard did more national interviews for hitting the game winner in a conf title game than the hobey baker winner. Don't come come into the BB thread and denigrate a league and tournament we HOPE the Sioux BB program will become a part of because you want to prop up hockey. Besides, you wanna talk parity? By my count 19 different teams have won the title in MBB since 1980 (that's as far back as i'm willing to research). How many different hockey teams have won the hockey title in that time? 14. And you are calling out ridiculousness?

[coach daddy]

Phil's parents use to babysit my mom and my aunt and my uncle, so don't tell me he'd score 50 'cause I know he'd get at least 60!!

Was just trying to make a point awhile back that this SU BB team is very good and one of the best college team's to come out of ND.

You said the best in your first post.

Vonesh, Gulseth, Robertson, Gardner, Rico Burkett, Mike Boschee, Ben Jacobson would not lose 4 out of 5 to this Bison team. You are on crack if you really believe that. This SU team has no one to guard Gully or Vonesh. UND in 6 games, easy!!!

[The Walrus]

Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6. You can mail it in at just above .500 and boom . . . final five . . get a hot goalie boom . . . ncaa tournament. You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. If the gophers happen to get in this year, case in point. It seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey, espcially where MN is concerned. Just an outsiders view.

I am extremely happy and proud that a North Dakota School (NDSU) is going to the Big Dance on a National Stage. Looking at this realiatically NDSU had a 1 out of 8 chance to accomplish this feat (win the tourney your in) 1st round of the NCAA, I hope they play well win and advance.

[rochsioux]

Besides, you wanna talk parity? By my count 19 different teams have won the title in MBB since 1980 (that's as far back as i'm willing to research). How many different hockey teams have won the hockey title in that time? 14. And you are calling out ridiculousness?

Please explain how these stats represent more parity in BB than hockey ??

19 different teams in BB represents 6-7% of the eligible teams. 14 hockey teams represents 20-25% of eligible teams. Seems to me there is more parity in hockey than in BB.

Has there ever beeen a #1 seed that lost in the first round of the BB tourny ? Not yet. I think we all know that a #1 seed has lost in hockey.

I think it is great that NDSU is in the NCAA BB tourny. IMO, it is not a great accomplishment, not yet. If they get to the sweet 16 then it is. But winning the Summit conference tourny to gain an auto-bid is not a great accomplishment. In fact, if they lost in the conf tourny but got an at-large bid I would consider that to be a bigger feat. I would feel the same if it was the UND basketball team and I would be happy they made it. When it is all over and they go home after the first w/e it would be pretty hard to be excited about the appearance. In reality, the ultimate goal for both UND/NDSU in D1 BB is to someday make a sweet sixteen, I would consider that feat to be on the same scale as winning a D1 hockey championship.

[captsioux]

I know this is womens bball, but sd st got screwed in the womens draw they are ranked #15 in the nation and got a #7 seed and get to play tcu in texas.

[star2city]

I wish my fellow Sioux hockey fans would stop espousing their preference for hockey by denigrating the Summit and/or the BB tournament. Do you realize this is the outcome we are hoping for when the Sioux men are eligible? You clearly enjoy college hockey and that's great. So do I. I will be attending the final five and watching BB on TV. However, if most folks thought college hockey is "way more exciting that college basketball" the WCHA Final Five would be a national TV game like The Summit title game, instead of a regional game. The day the Sioux men's BB team makes the tourney they will be getting more national exposure than the frozen four. NDSU's point guard did more national interviews for hitting the game winner in a conf title game than the hobey baker winner. Don't come come into the BB thread and denigrate a league and tournament we HOPE the Sioux BB program will become a part of because you want to prop up hockey. Besides, you wanna talk parity? By my count 19 different teams have won the title in MBB since 1980 (that's as far back as i'm willing to research). How many different hockey teams have won the hockey title in that time? 14. And you are calling out ridiculousness?

You're confusing accomplishment with media hype and attention. The NCAA dance is a billion dollar industry: every team gets hyped because CBS and ESPN want their investment paid off. If NDSU's women's soccer team or volleyball team won the national championship, that would far, far exceed anything this basketball team is doing or a UND men's hockey frozen four appearance. But, because women's soccer and volleyball don't get much if any hype, the nation yawns. Yet it would be a huge accomplishment. SDSU's women's volleyball, soccer and top 25 women's basketball teams have all made the NCAA field (and soccer actually won a game), so at this point, they are more accomplished than NDSU men's basketball, but just have had no media hype. Just based on the number of teams participating, UND winning a hockey national championship is equivalent to NDSU or UND making the Elite Eight in basketball. NDSU has a very good team, certainly top 100 in DI, and certainly deserves accolades, but hype does not equal accomplishment.

As far as your argument that there is parity is college basketball: that's BS except for if you are a member of a BCS league or are Memphis.

[JackJD]

I wish my fellow Sioux hockey fans would stop espousing their preference for hockey by denigrating the Summit and/or the BB tournament. Do you realize this is the outcome we are hoping for when the Sioux men are eligible?...

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit.

Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

[SiouxCrioux1]

Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6. You can mail it in at just above .500 and boom . . . final five . . get a hot goalie boom . . . ncaa tournament. You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. If the gophers happen to get in this year, case in point. It seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey, espcially where MN is concerned. Just an outsiders view.

Your analogy makes no sense. Any team can win the league tourney. Whether they have 20 wins, or 5. Like Cal St. Northridge(17-13), or Chattanooga (15-16). All they have to do is get hot in the tourney and win a couple games and boom...NCAA tournament. Not every team makes the WCHA Final Five like the Summit tourney. You have a best of 3 playoff series just to get there. So what I'm trying to say is that you Bison fans need to get over yourselves already and quit downplaying every accomplishment the Sioux have to make yourselves feel your better than UND.

[SiouxCrioux1]

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit.

Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

It certainly won't hurt our chances. If you think a Conference cares about a couple people on a message board you are delusional.

[star2city]

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit.

Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

Before NDSU and SDSU were rejected multiple times by the Big Sky, the bisonville board has a strong contingent of posters who despised the thought of the Summit. Did the Summit League take into account those feelings?

Does the Summit League take into account forums on NDSU or SDSU boards where there fans are hoping to jump ship and move to the Missouri Valley? Allegiances run two ways.

At this point, UND fans know that any autobid conference would be great. But the Summit isn't nirvana: every team in that league would jump at a better offer.

[FargoBison]

Actually the bottom two teams don't make the Summit Tourney. As for Sioux hockey you should be proud of what you are doing and have done and Bison fans should be proud of this.

While NDSU may be just the Summit League champ, the team has had a very impressive season, basketball is highly competitive and it isn't easy getting to the point where NDSU is at.

[SiouxCrioux1]

Actually the bottom two teams don't make the Summit Tourney. As for Sioux hockey you should be proud of what you are doing and have done and Bison fans should be proud of this.

While NDSU may be just the Summit League champ, the team has had a very impressive season, basketball is highly competitive and it isn't easy getting to the point where NDSU is at.

I know that and I agree with you. But I hate when a Bison fan comes on here and has to bash what the Sioux have accomplished just to try make theirs better.

[FargoBison]

I know that and I agree with you. But I hate when a Bison fan comes on here and has to bash what the Sioux have accomplished just to try make theirs better.

Some Bison fans do have an obession of bashing UND hockey, I'll agree with that and I can see how it could get annoying fast.

I for one do not think going to the dance is harder to do than winning a national title in hockey, you have to win in order to be remembered. There is no doubt this season will live on forever in Bison history but the team needs to make a little noise in order for it to be a part of NCAA basketball history. If you win a national title you are always remembered and always a part of NCAA hockey history.

[rochsioux]

Here is the final standings in the Summit and their RPI rank:

North Dakota St. #87

Oral Roberts #143

Oakland #122

IUPUI #247

IPFW #228

Southern Utah #266

South Dakota St. #283

Western Ill. #328

Centenary #291

Mo. Kansas City #309

To get the Summit autobid, a team has to finish in the top 8 then win 3 games in the conference tourny.

Everyone can make their own judgement on how difficult this is.

I don't mean this as a putdown of the Summit. I would be happy if UND joined the Summit and am realistic about their future in BB. They will never win a national championship, the best you can hope for is to make the tourny then win a few games and make the sweet sixteen. That will never give me the same satisfaction that winning a national championship in hockey does. And I am a big BB fan, there was a period of 10-12 years where I rarely missed any home UND hockey, BB, or football game. I have also been a big fan of UNC, mainly because I loved the way Dean Smith coached.

I hope NDSU can give Kansas a good game, maybe even pull off the upset. I don't need NDSU to fail to make me feel good about UND, we already have more hockey championships since 1980 than any other D1 school. My problem is the hype surrounding just making the "dance", I just don't get that, it is not THAT difficult to just make the tourny...it is much more difficult to win a few games.

[Matt]

You're confusing accomplishment with media hype and attention. The NCAA dance is a billion dollar industry: every team gets hyped because CBS and ESPN want their investment paid off. If NDSU's women's soccer team or volleyball team won the national championship, that would far, far exceed anything this basketball team is doing or a UND men's hockey frozen four appearance. But, because women's soccer and volleyball don't get much if any hype, the nation yawns. Yet it would be a huge accomplishment. SDSU's women's volleyball, soccer and top 25 women's basketball teams have all made the NCAA field (and soccer actually won a game), so at this point, they are more accomplished than NDSU men's basketball, but just have had no media hype. Just based on the number of teams participating, UND winning a hockey national championship is equivalent to NDSU or UND making the Elite Eight in basketball. NDSU has a very good team, certainly top 100 in DI, and certainly deserves accolades, but hype does not equal accomplishment.

As far as your argument that there is parity is college basketball: that's BS except for if you are a member of a BCS league or are Memphis.

I wasn't making a value judgement on them as accomplishments. That's all in the eye of the beholder. Winning a national championship in any sport at any level is a significant achievement. What is very difficult, what is more significant, is being able win at something that the entire nation cares about because there are very limited opportunities to do so. To do something significant enough that tens of millions of people will be looking at your team and trying to decide who will win because they have a wager riding on the outcome and those millions of people will be watching a tv at work or constantly checking their computers to see if their prediction came true. Sure there's hype. But that only goes so far. The billion dollars arrived because there's a market for it in MBB. Not so for women's soccer or volleyball or hockey, as you put it the nation yawns. That's why getting the opportunity in an autobid conf is so important for the basketball program, and watching NDSU do it in their first year (considering there are schools that have never been to the tournament) makes me feel much better about UND's future. Consider this too: there's been some discussion about the Vonesh teams from years ago in this thread. Who would trade an elite 8 appearance in division 2 with a first round matchup with the division 1 defending national champion? Maybe the elite 8 is a bigger accomplishment than playing on national tv for the summit title and the national tournament, but I'd trade it for the hype every time.

[Oxbow6]

You said the best in your first post.

Vonesh, Gulseth, Robertson, Gardner, Rico Burkett, Mike Boschee, Ben Jacobson would not lose 4 out of 5 to this Bison team. You are on crack if you really believe that. This SU team has no one to guard Gully or Vonesh. UND in 6 games, easy!!!

I do personally think this SU team is the BEST college BB team I've seen come out of ND. To all you Vonesh fans, he was good, but come on, playing a D1 schedule is harder/ more difficult than going up against the Morningside's, Mankato's and Auggies's of D2. I personally think Dave was a very good D2 player, but even somewhat overrated in his era. Dave's athleticism was marginal at best and definitely not good enough to compete on a D1 level night in and night out. Moormann is very solid defensively and at 6'10" fairly athletic. Don't forget he was offered to walk-on at UCLA. Woodside is flat out better than any guards UND had at that time. Winkleman is a flat out stud. The only true advantage for UND would be Gulseth...he was the real deal. He was underrated IMO during his time at UND. I'm not knocking those UND teams, but they had niche players, minus Gulseth, that made the sum of a team. This SU team has good to exceptional overall players and Tveidt is a white man's version of Gulseth at his age, but a better shooter.

PS: Not on crack, but just because you seem to think you have a higher BB IQ than everyone else doesn't mean you are absolute in your opinion!

[homer]

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit.

Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

I would just like to say hi to the commisioner of the Summit league since he obviously reads Siouxsports.com and is using it to make up his mind on letting us into the conference or not. Also, hello to the SEC and Big 12 commissioner. I have a crisp $1 in my wallet if you ever want to talk expansion.

There I think I made the summit league feel better. Also, covered us for bigger conferences. Thanks for the funniest post I've read in a while.

[UND92,96]

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit.

Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

If JBB and lakesbison weren't enough to preclude NDSU from getting a conference invitation--any conference invitation--I'd say that's proof positive that conference presidents and/or commissioners don't take the viewpoints of a few fans on a message board or boards into account when deciding whether to extend an invitation.

[NDSU grad]

You said the best in your first post.

Vonesh, Gulseth, Robertson, Gardner, Rico Burkett, Mike Boschee, Ben Jacobson would not lose 4 out of 5 to this Bison team. You are on crack if you really believe that. This SU team has no one to guard Gully or Vonesh. UND in 6 games, easy!!!

It's not like all those guys were in their prime at the same time. I'm going off memory here, but I think when Vonesh was a senior, Rico Burkett was the pg and Jacobson came off the bence as a Frosh. Gardner and Jacobson were in the same class, but didn't Gardner redshirt? I think UND's most talented team of that era was when Jacobson and Guldseth were seniors, with a supporting cast of Johnson, Gardner, and Powell. That would have been an interesting matchup with this NDSU team, but I think the Bison would have superior guard play and win about 60% of the time.