Women's/Men's Basketball Attendance

[The Walrus]

Well, it is my opinion that this year's Sioux team is not as good as the 2005-06, 2006-07, or 2007-08 versions. But I'm pretty darned pleased with how the Women's team has performed thus far, considering the demanding schedule that they've played. They've beaten the teams they're supposed to (DII/NAIA), nabbed some nice wins against some established DI competition including last night's victory against a solid Lamar team, and came very close to knocking off a Big 10 opponent a week ago.

Despite not being able to participate in the post-season for a few years, and quite frankly, not having the team capable of doing so this year if they were eligible, I do not long for the days of making it to the NCAA North Central Regional and putting 30 point drubbings on elite DII programs such as MSU-Moorhead and Nebraska Kearney.

I agree with this, last night's win vs Lamar and the Northwestern games really show improvement. Tonite they just did not compete for whatever reason....? I feel we are only 1-2 difference makers (Pudez, Richards, Crouse) type players from wining a couple more of this years contests....

But it will be a long road, til we can get into a conference like SDSU......

Anyone notice the Bison only had 855 fans at the last womens home game.....? Hope that never happens to us (I shouldn't talk, I can't go as much as I use to--Hate work)

[bincitysioux]

Anyone notice the Bison only had 855 fans at the last womens home game.....? Hope that never happens to us (I shouldn't talk, I can't go as much as I use to--Hate work)

We had 705 for the Men's game tonight.......

[The Walrus]

We had 705 for the Men's game tonight.......

WOW, didn't we play the University of Minnesota at crookston (that is bad)

[Hammersmith]

Anyone notice the Bison only had 855 fans at the last womens home game.....? Hope that never happens to us (I shouldn't talk, I can't go as much as I use to--Hate work)

WBB UND vs. Seattle Pacific(Dec 20): 713

We still win the worst attended game of the year contest with our 703 game vs. Oral Roberts.

Sub-1000 games between us this year:

1. 703 NDSU WBB vs. Oral Roberts(Mon, Dec 8)

2. 706 UND MBB vs. UM-C(Tue, Dec 30)

3. 713 UND WBB vs. Seattle Pacific(Sat, Dec 20)

4. 804 UND MBB vs. VCSU(Wed, Dec 10)

5. 855 NDSU WBB vs. Centenary(Sat, Dec 6)

6. 870 NDSU WBB vs. VCSU(Fri, Nov 21)

Averages to date:

NDSU MBB: 2823

UND WBB: 1359

UND MBB: 1205

NDSU WBB: 1118

Apparently the Summit is talking about moving the women's games from Sat/Mon on the same weekend as the men's Thur/Sat games to the Thur/Sat opposite the men's games. That would help women's attendance, though it would eliminate the possible Sat doubleheader with the men. Since NDSU chooses not to use the doubleheader, it could only help us.

Any word if you guys are going to make up your game with Jamestown? We rescheduled our women's game with them only to have it cancelled again due to weather. It's not going to be rescheduled this time.

*I was bored and updating my attendance results from the 29th/30th when I remembered reading Walrus' post last night. Good luck vs. the Minot State men on the 2nd and have a good(and safe) New Year's Eve.

[The Walrus]

Boy I wish I knew what happened to Attendance firgures for both programs....?

The old Hyslop seemed to be always packed (everyone blame Rich - Here, not his fault) and we did not always win....But at UND since the Betty was built we have yet to pack the place. We used to draw over 5,000 (ok we cheated, so did NDSU, maybe 4,500) fans for a Basketball game, now we can not get 2,500....? SAD

And seriously for either program, to have attendance under 1000.....? 1/12 of either Universities enrollment, not to mention surrounding population......SAD

[Shawn-O]

Boy I wish I knew what happened to Attendance firgures for both programs....?

The old Hyslop seemed to be always packed (everyone blame Rich - Here, not his fault) and we did not always win....But at UND since the Betty was built we have yet to pack the place. We used to draw over 5,000 (ok we cheated, so did NDSU, maybe 4,500) fans for a Basketball game, now we can not get 2,500....? SAD

And seriously for either program, to have attendance under 1000.....? 1/12 of either Universities enrollment, not to mention surrounding population......SAD

I don't mean to sound like the infamous MplsBison....but put both squads on the same floor and it would temporarily fix the problemo in short order.

[Hammersmith]

Boy I wish I knew what happened to Attendance firgures for both programs....?

The old Hyslop seemed to be always packed (everyone blame Rich - Here, not his fault) and we did not always win....But at UND since the Betty was built we have yet to pack the place. We used to draw over 5,000 (ok we cheated, so did NDSU, maybe 4,500) fans for a Basketball game, now we can not get 2,500....? SAD

And seriously for either program, to have attendance under 1000.....? 1/12 of either Universities enrollment, not to mention surrounding population......SAD

Part of the problem with those sub-1000 games was the weather and semester break. The snow and bitter cold of this December has hurt attendance; especially against undesirable opponents like Valley City State, Crookston or Seattle Pacific. In our case, men's attendance has been on a nice upward trend thanks to Woodside, Winkelman and Nelson. Last year was around 3,000 and we should see a 300-500 annual rise for the foreseeable future. The only bad year we've had recently was their redshirt year(04-05) when we had a terrible schedule and Tim Miles basically threw the season(our practice squad was more talented than our starting lineup). The women's attendance has not been so pretty. Our schedules have been bad, we haven't had a doubleheader in four years, the Sat/Mon conference schedule sucks, and our team hasn't been very good. We seem to be hovering around a 1,300 average with a +/- 250 variance. We need to field a better team and start winning to get above a 2,000 average. Also, if the Fargodome Arena happens, we'll probably get a 750-1000 bump for both men's and women's.

As for UND, your troubles started with the new Betty; it's just too small. Several years ago, you held a number of games in the Ralph and that helped attendance. For whatever reason, UND stopped doing that. The loss of several of the NCC schools also hurt badly because it forced the conference to move from Fri/Sat conference games to Thur/Sat. The fewer number of schools also meant fewer conference doubleheaders; the highest attended games. I believe you went from twelve or thirteen doubleheaders in 2003-04 to just five this season. You're also now dealing with the horrible schedules we faced four years ago. Both your men's and women's attendances have been on a steady decline for the past five years. It will probably get a little worse before it gets better. Quite frankly, your facility situation puts you between a rock and a hard place. In the 3,000-4,000 range, the additional ticket sales are probably more than offset by the higher costs of using the Ralph. It most likely only makes sense to use the Ralph when expected attendance exceeds 4,500. But there probably won't be any of those games for several years, since transitional scheduling truly sucks. Last year, you only had two games that broke 2,500: the USD doubleheader. I'm not sure if you're going to get any this year. I think our women might get one: SDSU. However, with the condition of our team(8 healthy players and our leading scorer out), I'm not even certain of that.

Happy New Year everyone

[Hammersmith]

I don't mean to sound like the infamous MplsBison....but put both squads on the same floor and it would temporarily fix the problemo in short order.

It would help for those two games(one men's, one women's), but two games does not a schedule make. I'm not opposed to Bison/Sioux basketball games in two or three years, but the problems are deeper than just one matchup. I'm also not sure a non-conference home/home with UND would be good for NDSU. I'm a little surprised we had one with the Northern Arizona men this year.

[dickgraham]

It was unbelieveable that they built the Betty to seat only 3,000 fans! There are area NAIA schools with gyms that big. The Ralph is fine if you have a full house, as they did against Kansas a few years ago, but it is a lousy atmosphere with 4-5,000 fans. Too big. The main basketball arena for a DI school should seat at least 5-6,000. You have to project that your BB programs will improve and, along with it, attendance will go up also. I grew up during the Bill Fitch era at UND and crowds of 6-7,000 were not unheard of. The Phil Jackson led teams, in those years, drew big crowds, as opposed to the 1,500-2,000 that would show up in the pre Fitch years. In those days the Hyslop held more fans . They used high football endzone bleachers on the east and west ends.

[The Walrus]

It was unbelieveable that they built the Betty to seat only 3,000 fans! There are area NAIA schools with gyms that big. The Ralph is fine if you have a full house, as they did against Kansas a few years ago, but it is a lousy atmosphere with 4-5,000 fans. Too big. The main basketball arena for a DI school should seat at least 5-6,000. You have to project that your BB programs will improve and, along with it, attendance will go up also. I grew up during the Bill Fitch era at UND and crowds of 6-7,000 were not unheard of. The Phil Jackson led teams, in those years, drew big crowds, as opposed to the 1,500-2,000 that would show up in the pre Fitch years. In those days the Hyslop held more fans . They used high football endzone bleachers on the east and west ends.

Ha Ha...I agree....I have sat in Hyslop on a HARD Wooden 8" Board of a Seat, Maybe the most uncomfortable ever, along with 5,000 other rapids fans....WE can not get 1/2 that for the Betty..

Hammer, I do not buy the weather excuse, you may lose a few out of towners, but where are the students, and local support...? and buy the way the only seat more uncomfortable than the Old Hyslop was the BSA...I think there boards where only 7", but would get over 6,000 fans....?

Shawn, I would be nervous right now if UND played NDSU, that either school would sell-out, just do not see it happening (Sell-Out), maybe after we get some energy back into the rivalry....?

[FargoBison]

What kills NDSU is nobody cares about these non-DI games, in the DI games the team has played the average attendance is 3489 which is solid considering only ORU has any name recognition. I hope a few local DI teams are added next year and a few lower division teams vanish. Saul is friends with Brian Jones and definitely wants the game to be played, so there is hope that may happen but he has no power until the admin lifts their ban on playing UND.

[ND Ball]

What kills NDSU is nobody cares about these non-DI games, in the DI games the team has played the average attendance is 3489 which is solid considering only ORU has any name recognition. I hope a few local DI teams are added next year and a few lower division teams vanish. Saul is friends with Brian Jones and definitely wants the game to be played, so there is hope that may happen but he has no power until the admin lifts their ban on playing UND.

How about some marketing? No band - would football and hockey settle for no band at their games. Poor excuse that students are on break - how about getting a high school band in there - how about having some specials to get traveling teams, YMCA teams, out of town teams etc. into games. Basketball doesn't even get the support of other teams on campus - how about the football team. It seems like the basketball, volleyball and other teams attend their games - I have even seem sitting in the front row to cheer them on - the coaches and team don't seem to repay the support. The reason for the push to DI was for football and they don't even play DI - and don't support the other programs on campus that have accepted the move.........

[bincitysioux]

Seems like a valid discussion, so I thought it warranted its own thread so as not to get lost as the season progresses.

[new2sioux2]

How about some marketing? No band - would football and hockey settle for no band at their games. Poor excuse that students are on break - how about getting a high school band in there - how about having some specials to get traveling teams, YMCA teams, out of town teams etc. into games. Basketball doesn't even get the support of other teams on campus - how about the football team. It seems like the basketball, volleyball and other teams attend their games - I have even seem sitting in the front row to cheer them on - the coaches and team don't seem to repay the support. The reason for the push to DI was for football and they don't even play DI - and don't support the other programs on campus that have accepted the move.........

Well said!

[bincitysioux]

Part of the problem with those sub-1000 games was the weather and semester break. The snow and bitter cold of this December has hurt attendance; especially against undesirable opponents like Valley City State, Crookston or Seattle Pacific. In our case, men's attendance has been on a nice upward trend thanks to Woodside, Winkelman and Nelson. Last year was around 3,000 and we should see a 300-500 annual rise for the foreseeable future. The only bad year we've had recently was their redshirt year(04-05) when we had a terrible schedule and Tim Miles basically threw the season(our practice squad was more talented than our starting lineup). The women's attendance has not been so pretty. Our schedules have been bad, we haven't had a doubleheader in four years, the Sat/Mon conference schedule sucks, and our team hasn't been very good. We seem to be hovering around a 1,300 average with a +/- 250 variance. We need to field a better team and start winning to get above a 2,000 average. Also, if the Fargodome Arena happens, we'll probably get a 750-1000 bump for both men's and women's.

As for UND, your troubles started with the new Betty; it's just too small. Several years ago, you held a number of games in the Ralph and that helped attendance. For whatever reason, UND stopped doing that. The loss of several of the NCC schools also hurt badly because it forced the conference to move from Fri/Sat conference games to Thur/Sat. The fewer number of schools also meant fewer conference doubleheaders; the highest attended games. I believe you went from twelve or thirteen doubleheaders in 2003-04 to just five this season. You're also now dealing with the horrible schedules we faced four years ago. Both your men's and women's attendances have been on a steady decline for the past five years. It will probably get a little worse before it gets better. Quite frankly, your facility situation puts you between a rock and a hard place. In the 3,000-4,000 range, the additional ticket sales are probably more than offset by the higher costs of using the Ralph. It most likely only makes sense to use the Ralph when expected attendance exceeds 4,500. But there probably won't be any of those games for several years, since transitional scheduling truly sucks. Last year, you only had two games that broke 2,500: the USD doubleheader. I'm not sure if you're going to get any this year. I think our women might get one: SDSU. However, with the condition of our team(8 healthy players and our leading scorer out), I'm not even certain of that.

Happy New Year everyone

Regarding the Men, if this year's attendance so far is ~1,000-ish, I'd say that is not a new trend. Anyone who has regularly attended basketball games in the past knows that the 2,000-ish numbers of the last few season prior to this one was in most cases heavily inflated by the double-header format. Over the past few seasons, that crowd of 2,000 quickly dwindled to 1,000 or so midway throught the 1st half of the men's game. Fan apathy toward the men's program started 4-5 years ago, not this season.

As for the Women, their attendance decline is a little tougher to explain. So far, the women's home schedule has been pretty much the same this 1st half of the season as it has been in past seasons. In fact, when you consider the opener against DI Eastern Michigan, it is maybe even better. Seattle Pacific was probably as good a DII non-conference regular season opponent that has played in the Sioux Center since it opened, ranked #18 in the country when they were here. Yet only 718 fans showed up for it. By comparison, around 1,600 came to last years non-conference game against #13 Glenville St.

My theory is that everyone loves a winner. The men's team hasn't really been relevent in anything since the very early part of this decade. Perhaps when the core of the basketball fan base reads in the paper that the women ar 6-9 and got blown out by Wyoming or Iowa St., they figure the team is not as good as in the past, so don't feel the desire to go to home games against NAIA's or unfamiliar DII's like Seattle Pacific.

I think attendance will creep up for the women's game as the season progresses. The toughest part of their schedule is behind them. When they rack up some wins, people will become interested again..............hopefully.

As far as facilities, I disagree that the Betty is the root of the attendance conundrum. The two years played in the Ralph, yes probably got a few more people out just to go experience the building, but the atmosphere in there was horrible, and in the configuration they used, did not provide the most optimal basketball viewing experience. I believe too that attendance numbers were also inflated because I think that suite owners tickets, and club seat ticket holders were counted in the "paid attendance" figures. The Sioux Center is a wonderful basketball facility with excellent sight-lines and amenities, and when full or close to full, the atmosphere is exceptional. The Ralph was awesome when 12,000 came for Kansas, and even when nearly 8,000 came for the final NDSU game, but was a dead vacuum all other times. The Sioux Center almost always provides an enjoyable atmosphere.

Whether the smaller size of the Betty, compared to Hyslop, is an issue is certainly debateable. Although I think a 4,000 seat arena would have been ideal, my opinion is that it is not an issue. Since moving into the Sioux Center, I think it has only been sold out 2 or 3 times. A quick glance at the attendance figures for various regional conferences that are membership targets for North Dakota would indicate the same. Last year, average attendance for Men's games in the Summit League was 2,072. In the Big Sky it was 2,308. So far this year, Great West schools are drawing anywhere from 300 to 2,200 with an average of about 1,000. Of course history tells us that the potential is there for UND to attract 4,000-5,000 fans on average (the general consensus for the turn-out at games during the early '90's ). But I think it is probably unlikey we will see that type of consistent interest ever again. With the REA attached, and the Alerus just several blocks away, any game that is expected to draw extraordinarily high could be scheduled in one of those places. However the only games I could see that happening for would be for one with NDSU. Or perhaps a women's game with SDSU if we were to ever join the Summit and both programs were excelling. Or Minnesota if they ever 1) agreed to play UND period, and 2) agreed to ever play UND outside of the state of MN (except for hockey ) .

The Sioux Center could be somewhat reasonably modified to accomodate around ~3,600 fans by simply installing larger portable bleachers behind the baskets. If games are ever consistently sold out, there are benefits to that too, ya know. Higher ticket prices and televised games.

Marketing for UND's sports has been a problem across the board. I don't know if there isn't the money, or simply the idea that since hockey sells itself, there is no reason to focus on the other sports. It should be the opposite. And it has bee disappointing to see no band at the games, even prior to the semester break.

[The Walrus]

Winning Helps, Yes ....The Women were like 93-9 (53-5 at Home) since the Betty opened.......? and we still have about the half the attendance we had in Hyslop.

I believe marketing is part of the problem, the Athletic Administration as not committed the resources to any sport at UND as much as it does to Hockey, or the Alumin spends on trying to save a logo.....? UND has been talking about Marketing since the 90's when Cal Davis brought 100 band members and students on a bus trip for a game at UND......and we have not succeeded yet.

But I also believe in the 5-6,000 attendance days we also had teams with a more local flavor. The Men's team with Jacobson, Gardner, McAndrews, Vonesh, Boushee, Wilkie, Gulseth, Robertson were all N.D. guys, and these were the days when the Men out drew the Women. When the women started to have some success with National Title runs is when the Women started to over take the Men in attendance figures.

These days may be gone forever, because I do not see either of those in the near future, A group of local talent that good, and National Championship runs....

[dakotadan]

The Betty was a horribly designed basketball facility that was rushed just for the World Juniors. It looks and feels like a multicourt practice facility. And the lack of a concourse absolutely boggles my mind. The Betty should have been modeled after Minnesota State's Taylor Center.

I guess I never thought that the basketball games at the Ralph were as bad as others seem to remember. I definitely think there are things that could be done in the Ralph to improve it's basketball atmosphere. And I don't see how the Alerus could ever be an intimate setting for UND basketball. That would be one sterile environment.

[GeauxSioux]

The Betty was a horribly designed basketball facility that was rushed just for the World Juniors. It looks and feels like a multicourt practice facility. And the lack of a concourse absolutely boggles my mind. The Betty should have been modeled after Minnesota State's Taylor Center.

I guess I never thought that the basketball games at the Ralph were as bad as others seem to remember. I definitely think there are things that could be done in the Ralph to improve it's basketball atmosphere. And I don't see how the Alerus could ever be an intimate setting for UND basketball. That would be one sterile environment.

I have never seen a BB game in the Betty, but have watched a few BB games in the Ralph from a suite. I thoroughly enjoyed the games.

I think attendance would increase if games were moved into the Ralph, but would the net profit be higher when you consider the labor involved in changing the venue from hockey to BB and back and the operating overhead associated with the Ralph.

DickGraham - I only recall UND using the high bleachers for the Sioux/Bison games. Those were some packed games and wow, the fights that would break-out in the crowd. The good old days of 30-40 years ago.

[the green team]

I thought it was interesting when listening to the Iowa St. game the other night when they talked about that Ames is a community of 26-27,000 and when school is in session the town expands another 26000 thousand- and even though school was out they still had 7000 in attendance, that's awesome, now granted Des Moines isn't that far away but still the support sounds amazing.

Unfortunately, here is what I think is a very possible reality... 1. This transition to Division 1, results in more losing- this being a front runner fanbase, for hockey, football, basketball etc. It completely depletes whatever fanbase we have left and we never get to a fanbase point in my lifetime where we have to consider moving from the Betty. Plus, I really hate the idea of "well if we ever have any big games will move them into the Ralph", if I'm the home team I want to play those big games on what I usually play on... my home court, and my home atmosphere. 2. Because D1 athletics are incredibly expensive to fund, we reach a point where we continually have to sacrifice other programs to make budget. 3. There will be a point where our tradition won't be recent enough to resonate with attainable recruits and they choose to go elsewhere. Good recruits like to go to winners.

Clearly, this move was made for the sport of football, (don't get me wrong I love cheering for our football team) but most other transitional schools except the ones in the Dakotas (notice I said, most) have made the move for the reason of basketball and the community and the student body at these institutions understand this and embrace it. I'm not sure that people realize that if we're going to be Divison 1, it would be imperative to have successful basketball programs, and one way to get better players to come here is to impress them with overwhelming fan support. Go ahead and ask a player if they want to go play in front of 1000 or 6000, if I'm the player and everything is fairly similar in other areas, student life, emphisis of study, I know where I'm going to go. I'm just not sure our community and student body are ever going to come around to it.

I hope I am wrong in my pessimism, and since there is a long way to go in our transition, I will be interested to see how it plays out. Because, it would be an awesome day when the Betty is not big enough to hold the Sioux Basketball fanbase. I think its important to point out that the players on both the men's and womens basketball programs, this year have worked there butts off this season. They have my full support, I will go to as many games as I can and I appreciate their efforts as our programs forge ahead into a new era.

[The Sicatoka]

You can't have it both ways:

You're bemoaning the attendance numbers (1000-ish) and yet say the Betty (3500) is too small.

Allow me to point out again ... (and the numbers are close, not exact)

Betty - 3500

Lower Bowl (and suites) of REA - 6500

Alerus in BB config - 9100

REA (total - BB config) - 13000

The Betty is a practice facility (badly needed space) that can hold 3500 for a game. UND got it for next to nothing.

The issue isn't facility, it's more marketing, and honestly, product. But let's look at marketing and product:

NDSU BB has roughly the same attendance numbers (save for the ORU game, which skews the average) as UND but in a market that's double the size, and with far more marketing and media. That should be alarming to BB fans up and down the RRV.

[Dagger]

UND is just starting their transition and the attractiveness of opponents, particularly this year, isn't very good. NDSU is done with their transition and their attendance figures are what they are. They probably should be more concerned than we are. Considering the quality of our teams, the attendance figures from previous seasons, and being in the first year of transition the figures from this season so far are very much expected. The figures for this year might go up some as we get into more games after Christmas. I hope that when we finish our transition that our attendance figures are better than what NDSU is getting right now. We do have to remember one thing. Fargo, Moorhead and West Fargo have a population base much larger than we have here. In other words they probably have larger attendance potential then we do. Hockey draws a lot of customers away from potential basketball fans too. People in Grand Forks have only so many nights in the week and so much money to devote to following sports teams. Hockey doesn't help our potential to grow our fan base for basketball.

[Matt]

You can't have it both ways:

You're bemoaning the attendance numbers (1000-ish) and yet say the Betty (3500) is too small.

Allow me to point out again ... (and the numbers are close, not exact)

Betty - 3500

Lower Bowl (and suites) of REA - 6500

Alerus in BB config - 9100

REA (total - BB config) - 13000

The Betty is a practice facility (badly needed space) that can hold 3500 for a game. UND got it for next to nothing.

The issue isn't facility, it's more marketing, and honestly, product. But let's look at marketing and product:

NDSU BB has roughly the same attendance numbers (save for the ORU game, which skews the average) as UND but in a market that's double the size, and with far more marketing and media. That should be alarming to BB fans up and down the RRV.

But you can't "save for the ORU game, which skews the average"any more than we could save the Bison game from when they played the Sioux. Big games rightfully skew the average. That's one reason why they are big games. The point however, is still valid, NDSU has good reason to be dissatisfied with attendance. It's a large part of why they will build a new arena with or without the city involvement, no doubt. They need a reason for people to be excited about basketball after this years' NCAA tourney opportunity is done.

[coach daddy]

UND is just starting their transition and the attractiveness of opponents, particularly this year, isn't very good. NDSU is done with their transition and their attendance figures are what they are. They probably should be more concerned than we are. Considering the quality of our teams, the attendance figures from previous seasons, and being in the first year of transition the figures from this season so far are very much expected. The figures for this year might go up some as we get into more games after Christmas. I hope that when we finish our transition that our attendance figures are better than what NDSU is getting right now. We do have to remember one thing. Fargo, Moorhead and West Fargo have a population base much larger than we have here. In other words they probably have larger attendance potential then we do. Hockey draws a lot of customers away from potential basketball fans too. People in Grand Forks have only so many nights in the week and so much money to devote to following sports teams. Hockey doesn't help our potential to grow our fan base for basketball.

I don't believe hockey "hurts" bball attendance. This is a hockey community. Most of the people who attend hockey have very little interest in bball at UND. There is some carryover but it is minimal. UND needs to find those people in this community who want to watch basketball first and get them to the games. Local H.S. school teams, smaller communities in the area, where there is no hockey and high school basketball is still a big deal. Those are some of the folks who need to be marketed too. There are also alot of people in this community who would rather go to a basketball game before a hockey. However, with parking what it is, the cost of a ticket (to watch Minot St.?), etc. it is very difficult to justify going to the Betty to watch bball right now. I can be found at high school games 3-5 nights a week. I love basketball and the energy of high school kids (boys or girls) playing their hearts out is awesome. Don't see that at UND games (mens games especially) right now.

[Hammersmith]

How does having twice as many fans attending NDSU MBB games as UND(even without ORU factored in) equal "roughly the same attendance numbers"? I don't get that. While we would always like to see higher attendance, the NDSU men's program has had healthy growth for the past four years. I stated earlier that it was 300-500 per year, but I just crunched the numbers and it appears I was wrong. The average growth per year is 450, and we're on trend to match that this year. There's a real possibility of tripling UND's numbers by the end of this year and quadrupling within two more.

And don't give me the "larger metro area" excuse; that thought doesn't fly for college athletics. Schools from smaller communities regularly have larger attendances than their big city counterparts because the small-town college is often the only major draw in town. The big city school is competing against a host of other activities for fans. While the gap between F/M and GF isn't small town/big city in scale, we do have two other colleges, a bunch more high schools, a USHL team that is fresh and new, and all the additional movie, dining and club/bar experiences that our larger size creates. If we do manage to get close to 3500 this year as projected, it will be accomplished in the worst winter in a decade and the worst economic year since the Great Depression. If we do it, I'll consider that a smashing success.

At our current rate of growth, we will sell out the BSA(cap. ~6300) within six years and the new arena(~6000) will probably sell out by its second year if construction starts this spring. Smack our women's attendance all you want(it deserves it right now), but the men's attendance is just about perfect from where we started from on this DI road.

NDSU Men's Attendance

2004-05: 1654(throwaway year with "fab-four" redshirting)

2005-06: 2488 (+834)

2006-07: 2625 (+137)

2007-08: 3034 (+409)

2008-09: 3468 (+454) projected

[Matt]

How does having twice as many fans attending NDSU MBB games as UND(even without ORU factored in) equal "roughly the same attendance numbers"? I don't get that. While we would always like to see higher attendance, the NDSU men's program has had healthy growth for the past four years. I stated earlier that it was 300-500 per year, but I just crunched the numbers and it appears I was wrong. The average growth per year is 450, and we're on trend to match that this year. There's a real possibility of tripling UND's numbers by the end of this year and quadrupling within two more.

And don't give me the "larger metro area" excuse; that thought doesn't fly for college athletics. Schools from smaller communities regularly have larger attendances than their big city counterparts because the small-town college is often the only major draw in town. The big city school is competing against a host of other activities for fans. While the gap between F/M and GF isn't small town/big city in scale, we do have two other colleges, a bunch more high schools, a USHL team that is fresh and new, and all the additional movie, dining and club/bar experiences that our larger size creates. If we do manage to get close to 3500 this year as projected, it will be accomplished in the worst winter in a decade and the worst economic year since the Great Depression. If we do it, I'll consider that a smashing success.

At our current rate of growth, we will sell out the BSA(cap. ~6300) within six years and the new arena(~6000) will probably sell out by its second year if construction starts this spring. Smack our women's attendance all you want(it deserves it right now), but the men's attendance is just about perfect from where we started from on this DI road.

NDSU Men's Attendance

2004-05: 1654(throwaway year with "fab-four" redshirting)

2005-06: 2488 (+834)

2006-07: 2625 (+137)

2007-08: 3034 (+409)

2008-09: 3468 (+454) projected

You label 04-05 as a throwaway year because the the "fab four" wasn't playing, yet you project quadrupling attendance withing two more years after the fab four are gone. Why are those not throwaway years as well without the "fab four"?