The Incredible Disappearing Goal

[The Sicatoka]

Brad Schlossman writes a great follow-up piece to his disappearing goals article from the end of last season in Sunday's Herald. He goes into greater depth in his blog (and also links to the article).

And it's not a UND but a league-wide issue (hello Commissioner McLeod).

My opinion: I'm not into watching soccer, and I hate bad bounces deciding games.

I prefer the more talented team show it on the scoreboard, by scoring.

I miss Tony Hrkac: Tony's 1986-87 season is the first two and a half years of TJ Oshie's career.

Hrkac in 1986-87: 46-70-116, 48 games

Oshie's career: 51-68-119, 109 games

Duncan's career: 57-59-116, 112 games

[stickboy1956]

Brad Schlossman writes a great follow-up piece to his disappearing goals article from the end of last season in Sunday's Herald. He goes into greater depth in his blog (and also links to the article).

And it's not a UND but a league-wide issue (hello Commissioner McLeod).

My opinion: I'm not into watching soccer, and I hate bad bounces deciding games.

I prefer the more talented team show it on the scoreboard, by scoring.

I miss Tony Hrkac: Tony's 1986-87 season is the first two and a half years of TJ Oshie's career.

Hrkac in 1986-87: 46-70-116, 48 games

Oshie's career: 51-68-119, 109 games

Duncan's career: 57-59-116, 112 games

I heard on the radio last night an interview with Mike Babcock - coach of the Detroit RW. The topic was lack of scoring in NHL and he mentioned that due to extensive video work they do, there are no surprises and are very prepared for each team they face. A WCHA coach mentioned the same thing to me regarding specialty teams - everyone has video of each teams pp/pk.

I also think the level of coaching has gone up in the league. I think Jutting is probably the worst, but after that you have to admit the rest of the WCHA teams are pretty well coached.

[Fetch]

Someone from Arkansas ask me - which sport has been around longer soccer or soccer on Ice

[jimdahl]

I know Brad's written that very same article in the past, I know the NCAA ice hockey committee has promised a crackdown on obstruction for years, the WCHA has pledged to open up the game for years.

The NHL figured it out in 2004 when attendance and freefalling t.v. coverage forced them to do something to save the game. Frankly, unthinkable in my youth, the NHL is now a better, more watchable hockey product than college hockey.

After all the false starts, the cynic in me worries that the NCAA and WCHA won't actually do anything until their survival depends on it, and I don't see the fan market applying sufficient pressure. The optimist in me hopes that the increase in the WCHA as a training ground for the NHL allows the NHL to apply sufficient pressure.

[CDog]

I know Brad's written that very same article in the past, I know the NCAA ice hockey committee has promised a crackdown on obstruction for years, the WCHA has pledged to open up the game for years.

The NHL figured it out in 2004 when attendance and freefalling t.v. coverage forced them to do something to save the game. Frankly, unthinkable in my youth, the NHL is now a better, more watchable hockey product than college hockey.

After all the false starts, the cynic in me worries that the NCAA and WCHA won't actually do anything until their survival depends on it, and I don't see the fan market applying sufficient pressure. The optimist in me hopes that the increase in the WCHA as a training ground for the NHL allows the NHL to apply sufficient pressure.

Jim, you're right.

I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again: Either Brad or someone from the Star Tribune needs to contact former college players such as: Parise, Vanek, Zajac, Toews, Olkposo and have them discuss the brutal muggings that take place in college hockey. That story would run in newspapers around the country and finally get the ball rolling towards better officiating, opening up the college game, the enforcement of obstruction penalties...I'm certain that those players listed above would be honest in their assessment of the college game and the officiating.

[dagies]

IF the NCAA or WCHA starts calling things closer, us fans have to help out by not whining about every call and the penalty filled games during the first part of the process. We're going to have to live through that for a little while to get where we want to go.

[Goon]

I know Brad's written that very same article in the past, I know the NCAA ice hockey committee has promised a crackdown on obstruction for years, the WCHA has pledged to open up the game for years.

The NHL figured it out in 2004 when attendance and freefalling t.v. coverage forced them to do something to save the game. Frankly, unthinkable in my youth, the NHL is now a better, more watchable hockey product than college hockey.

After all the false starts, the cynic in me worries that the NCAA and WCHA won't actually do anything until their survival depends on it, and I don't see the fan market applying sufficient pressure. The optimist in me hopes that the increase in the WCHA as a training ground for the NHL allows the NHL to apply sufficient pressure.

Jim I actually think we are almost to the point of a fan revolt. I am seeing the fans upset with the way the league is officated.

This is going to come to a head. The league has no credibility after all of the failures that have happened this season. I think it will change soon. I may also be a wide eyed optimist but I think it will change. The league has to or risk losing a lot of fed up players to the pros.

[Goon]

IF the NCAA or WCHA starts calling things closer, us fans have to help out by not whining about every call and the penalty filled games during the first part of the process. We're going to have to live through that for a little while to get where we want to go.

Deal! Your also right, this happened in the professional ranks after the crack down as well, however, the players, coaches and teams eventually got the hint and learned to play the game without all the obstruction, hooking, holding and slashings.

[sprig]

Deal! Your also right, this happened in the professional ranks after the crack down as well, however, the players, coaches and teams eventually got the hint and learned to play the game without all the obstruction, hooking, holding and slashings.

The problem remains, however, that the current crop of referees cannot apply rules based on any standard equally, so it won't cure the problems like the NHL did; their referees are just a whole lot better.

[dagies]

The problem remains, however, that the current crop of referees cannot apply rules based on any standard equally, so it won't cure the problems like the NHL did; their referees are just a whole lot better.

There is that.

[HeidiSioux62]

It seems to me that everytime anyone has contacted Bruce or Greg Shepard about the reffing over the last two or three years (the latest I'm aware of is Goon this year) the standard reply is "This is what the coaches want." I have a hard time buying this, (especially UND, UW, MN, DU and CC - see a trend here - traditionally top 5) but both Bruce and Greg strike me as incredibly stuborn and sometimes vindictive if challenged and as such the coaches may be reluctant to "rock the boat". I just don't see anything changing with these two in charge.

[Goon]

It seems to me that everytime anyone has contacted Bruce or Greg Shepard about the reffing over the last two or three years (the latest I'm aware of is Goon this year) the standard reply is "This is what the coaches want." I have a hard time buying this, (especially UND, UW, MN, DU and CC - see a trend here - traditionally top 5) but both Bruce and Greg strike me as incredibly stuborn and sometimes vindictive if challenged and as such the coaches may be reluctant to "rock the boat". I just don't see anything changing with these two in charge.

I am pretty close to writing another letter to the league office. I am going to wait and see how this weekend goes.

I had the misfortune to talk to both Sheppards both are very arogant (like father and son) and McCloud is an empty suit.

I remember after MSU-M and UND played in the WCHA home series and Sheppard was going through the checkpoint of the GFK airport complaining about how he had to stay in this town one extra night in this crappy town (Grand Forks, ND) because the Sioux couldn't beat MSU-M in two games and I made the comment maybe the refs should have done a better job officiating.

[ScottM]

It seems to me that everytime anyone has contacted Bruce or Greg Shepard about the reffing over the last two or three years (the latest I'm aware of is Goon this year) the standard reply is "This is what the coaches want." I have a hard time buying this, (especially UND, UW, MN, DU and CC - see a trend here - traditionally top 5) but both Bruce and Greg strike me as incredibly stuborn and sometimes vindictive if challenged and as such the coaches may be reluctant to "rock the boat". I just don't see anything changing with these two in charge.

Until the coaches/schools decide "Enough is enough!" and push the the WCHA, which they effectively control, to "open up the game" and get away from their vision of "parity", this crap will continue. Along that same line, perhaps it's time for McLeod and Shepard to retire, along with some of the zebras.

[stickboy1956]

Jim, you're right.

I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again: Either Brad or someone from the Star Tribune needs to contact former college players such as: Parise, Vanek, Zajac, Toews, Olkposo and have them discuss the brutal muggings that take place in college hockey. That story would run in newspapers around the country and finally get the ball rolling towards better officiating, opening up the college game, the enforcement of obstruction penalties...I'm certain that those players listed above would be honest in their assessment of the college game and the officiating.

I know - consider the source - still interesting given the topic/thread:

Okposo showing he belongs in the pro ranks

[Blackheart]

I am pretty close to writing another letter to the league office. I am going to wait and see how this weekend goes.

I had the misfortune to talk to both Sheppards both are very arogant (like father and son) and McCloud is an empty suit.

I remember after MSU-M and UND played in the WCHA home series and Sheppard was going through the checkpoint of the GFK airport complaining about how he had to stay in this town one extra night in this crappy town (Grand Forks, ND) because the Sioux couldn't beat MSU-M in two games and I made the comment maybe the refs should have done a better job officiating.

You nailed him right in the F****** mind!

[Blackheart]

I heard on the radio last night an interview with Mike Babcock - coach of the Detroit RW. The topic was lack of scoring in NHL and he mentioned that due to extensive video work they do, there are no surprises and are very prepared for each team they face. A WCHA coach mentioned the same thing to me regarding specialty teams - everyone has video of each teams pp/pk.

I also think the level of coaching has gone up in the league. I think Jutting is probably the worst, but after that you have to admit the rest of the WCHA teams are pretty well coached.

Yes, Jutting is the worst...how that goon squad beat St. Clown last week is a mystery...

[The Sicatoka]

Let me ask this next, obvious question:

Could dissatisfaction with WCHA officiating end up being a compounding factor (along with Bemidji State's efforts to get into the WCHA) to drive Minnesota and Wisconsin into the arms of Michigan, MSU, OSU, and presumably Notre Dame, and a Big Ten Hockey Conference?

[nodak hockey fanatic]

with the way the pairwise works now (reduced sos taken into account), please tell me why these non-wcha teams would give up their cupcake conferences and an almost automatic yearly ncaa invitation to join a wcha-like division, where only 3-4 will make it to the dance, and that is on good years. the idea seems great, but the teams won't do it. michigan likes dominating the ccha, and having a shot at the title every year. there are many years a top 16 team from the wcha gets edged out and does not get that opportunity.

[The Sicatoka]

You make a great point about (Big Tenners) being in a position to have a great record and a fairly smooth path to an autobid every year being a great incentive to stay in existing conferences.

Only one thing would get them to change their notion about that:

Money. Moo-lah. Da-bling-bling.

And a Big Ten Hockey Conference, with Big Ten Network, could offer that.

[seeboys]

Have any former WCHA Studs now in the NHL made any comments about the difficulties of being a skilled player in the wcha?

[nodak hockey fanatic]

Have any former WCHA Studs now in the NHL made any comments about the difficulties of being a skilled player in the wcha?

other than okposo's recent comments, i don't think any former player has really spoken out about all of the obstruction for fear of just sounding like a whiner. but if a good article was done by a legit reporter where numerous ex-wcha guys would say... "yeah, they let all that stuff go in the wcha. it was a breath of fresh air here in the nhl. even though the skill level is higher, we have room to move and be creative.", then i think it would make an impact. i don't see that article happening, what do the ex-wcha guys have to gain? like i said, there will be alot of people who will say, quit whining, you're making millions, and you had pretty good stats in college, and it got you here didn't it?

[Goon]

other than okposo's recent comments, i don't think any former player has really spoken out about all of the obstruction for fear of just sounding like a whiner. but if a good article was done by a legit reporter where numerous ex-wcha guys would say... "yeah, they let all that stuff go in the wcha. it was a breath of fresh air here in the nhl. even though the skill level is higher, we have room to move and be creative.", then i think it would make an impact. i don't see that article happening, what do the ex-wcha guys have to gain? like i said, there will be alot of people who will say, quit whining, you're making millions, and you had pretty good stats in college, and it got you here didn't it?

You don't have to be much of a detective to find out that the obstruction is holding the goal production down. Just look at how many goals JT is scoring in the NHL then look at this WCHA numbers. Toews has scored about the same number of goals in the NHL that he has in the WCHA. Obstruction. Toews only had three less goals in the NHL for about the same numbers of games.

Here is Toews Blackhawk numbers 36games 15- 17-32 points

Here is Toews Sioux numbers: 34 games 18-28-46

So are we to believe that the skill level is as high as the WCHA in the NHL.

No, it is the fact that its hard to score when the refs don't call, hooking, holding and obstruction.

[mikejm]

How do you explain the fact that goal scoring in the NHL is down this year. Did they start NOT calling obstruction?

[nodak hockey fanatic]

the rules have been implemented, teams have adjusted, defenses and goalies are now adapting to the new style of play. just because they are calling the game like it should be called doesn't mean scoring will go up every year from now until eternity, or until they stop calling obstruction penalties again. things adjust to change and then settle in. come on mike, i had you pegged for someone who wouldn't be beyond understanding this. scoring may be down (i don't have numbers, but will take you on your word) but i would put good money it is still up from the pre-obstruction call days, am i right? as a whole, the pre-obst. numbers will most likely always be lower than the new nhl style numbers, even if the year to year numbers vary slightly. sorry for the rambling, a statistics guru could have probably explained my view a lot more clearly and consisely

[mikejm]

^Yes, I do get it. I just don't think the WCHA's goal-scoring drought can be laid solely at the feet of officiating. There are a lot of other factors that enter in.

I'd say the number of early-departures is at least as much a factor as is the officiating. And I am not prepared to accept the fact that the Parises, Bochenskis, et al have left college hockey simply because they're tired of getting hacked and held. There simply isn't the level of upper classmen talent in the WCHA that there was a decade ago. (No I don't have facts on this; it is merely my hunch as someone who has watched and actively followed UND and WCHA hockey since the early 70s.)

In addition I think the WCHA has been blessed with a very highly talented group of goaltenders, which when coupled with bigger, lighter and better goalie equipment, would also directly (and negatively) impact the number of goals scored.

I am not satisfied with the officiating in the WCHA. It is, frankly, embarrassing at times. But that's not the whole story. I am confident though, in saying the WCHA remains the premier college hockey conference. It will continue to attract the best talent. The days of that top-tier talent staying around for four years, and fully maturing as goal-scorers, is passed, unfortunately.

We can blame the new reality of the NHL (and a very vibrant AHL) for that.