yababy8

I assume you all are speaking about UNDColorado with you moral terpretude since he is the one who brought up the WWII metaphor and my response to his post was simply a mirror consideration.. Further, this is same old for the kill three name croud whem it comes to pulling the, "your out of bounds with your metaphor" stuff. This type of rebuttal really deflects well from the points at hand doesn't it. Of course the name issue is not synonymous with a world war. Do we need to discuss that because of a metaphor??? I used the flying bombers metaphor to make the point that one can choose to accept risk and damage if the goal is to achieve something desired. We all no that the ultimate risk to the solders was their life and in the save our name campaign the ultimate loss would be the marginalization of the UND athletic program. Everyone should get that without clarification, I would think, Right??

There is no "keep the name at all costs" it is more like keep the name and accept we are going to get some damage but accept that getting banged up as part of the fight to keep that which is great to us, our name. And to believe that in the end we will survive AND have our name... oh I know you think we will die but I think we will make it and in the end not be marginalized.. A good example: during WWII our bombers would fly on missions over Germany knowing that they were going to get all shot to hell by Nazi fighter planes and anti-aircraft assaults. But they took the damage because it was a fight for freedom from the eventual rule of a dictator that would exact his racist opinions on their/our lifestyle. So they accepted the risk and the damage and did it anyway.. I thank them!! See what I'm saying?, this is all a matter of opinion.. there is no 'know' in it.. It doesn't work that way. You can't say you know how something is going to turn out, you pick one path and see where it leads. and you do this based on estimations, considerations and most importantly values and convictions. Then you see your future.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3oz0zhEwZk&feature=related .... I've only been able to think of one other nickname that I might be able to accept as a replacement for the great Sioux name. I have had it in my head for a couple of years now and I have never before mentioned it on Siouxsports forums because I want the focus to be on the fight against fascism and not assist in giving an easy out. Further, up until this point I don't think the University of North Dakota is worthy of the nickname as it does not apply to the institution thus far (with the exception of a few including Spirit Lake). ..But if we were brave enough to stand up to the NCAA in some real way, to unite as a community and a group of people who don't want to lose their name at the hands of tyanny and to vote with one loud voice and say together, "We will not surrender our name in vein" ..then down the road if we have to let it go, AFTER A FIGHT, A REAL FIGHT, then we might just be able to call ourselves; BRAVEHEARTS I could accept that nickname but only if it was earned.

I get where the kill the nickname crowd is coming from. I understand it poses a threat to the Athletic future of North Dakota. I don't judge people harshly at this point for such positions.. I do however believe that the preponderance of rhetoric is currently coming from the kill the name side. Save the name opponents speak in absolutes when they should be speaking from a point of speculation. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means that they don't KNOW the future. Here are a few examples: 1. No one can say they know that the Big Sky will boot UND if we vote to keep the name. If I had to choose in a forced bet of a million dollars having to pick between the Big Sky booting us and them letting us stay following a keep the name vote, I would pick that they wouldn't boot us. They know the power of words and how cheap they are to speak and suggesting it is a possibility and actually doing it are very different things. Note: I'm not saying I'm highly confident they won't but there is no question which way I would put my money on that one.. 2. Kill the nicknamers are interpreting others schools statements regarding "not scheduling until the name issue as resolved" as meaning that if we keep the name we are going to be blackballed from competition with their university forever. I feel that if we keep the name only through poor diplomacy would these schools actually bail on us long term. I may be wrong, but we do not know. We don't so don't try to say we do. You don't need to debate this with me, I already said you might be right. Did I mention that you don't know. 3. No one is considering the fact that keeping the name keeps us in the fight. The Federal judge that threw out the lacking attempt by the Spirit Lake lawyers suit commented that a few of the grounds in that case had merit but would need to be brought by UND. Well I hear no one talking about that. And this leads me to number 4; 4. ..Why don't we have an honest discussion about what the next steps that should be taken by UND, the SBofHE, the Sioux Tribe and the government of North Dakota IF the name resolution results in favor of keeping the name (next steps other than/beyond fighting the resolution itself). This is something that has never happened since the days of the settlement(if you want to call that a fight). At least it has not been transparent. I read a post today from fightingsioux4life where he passionately advocated for college hockey to fight against the Canadian Major Junior league and dispel their rhetoric regarding their superiority and I loved his post. It had passion, ownership and will, yya know the things that we were all tought to value in this country. I can say that I have never seen anything like that from the leadership groups in this fight( with the exception of the Sioux people themselves). I think we should all vote No and keep the name and send a big fat message to the leadership players, Kelley, Faison, SBofHE the Governor, Congress, and some worthy Attorney General to get with the Sioux people and devise a strategy. I know you will say we are beyond that, we have no cards becuase of the settlement and we can't because it will hurt the university, but can't never did a god damm thing and I would be very interested in a vote of the people forcing these players to actually do it.. Do you all think they would?? More Kill the name rhetoric: 5. Kill the namers say that it will diminish UND athletics if we keep the name but I don't hear them consider the devaluation of our program if we lose the Sioux name. I would say that 90% of the cost here will be in the hockey program. It is a Nationally known program and the Sioux name is a major part of that. Anyone remember how Blais felt about the nickname. I know, you will say Blais would probably not support keeping the name now. That's not my point. My point is what he said and that is still true. I'm pretty confident Blais would not redefine his value of the name itself? Losing the name will cost the hockey program the only question is how much. And yes I know you all believe that keeping it will cost more. I get it. Just don't try to spin it by denying that killing the name will have NO COST. And many on here have been doing just that by saying it is just a nickname and the program is the atheletes not a nickname. That is not honest. The Sioux nickname carries a lot of wieght and goodwill and losing it will have an effect, period! . 6. Kill the namers constantly compare our situation with that of South Carolina's. While they do this they never speak of the significant difference between the two. South Carolina's flag is an affront to Black People as it represents a historic support of slavery against Black people. The day we should be comparing South Carolina to us is the day Black organizations sue the NCAA to keep the flag. Note: I realize that it is another school under sanctions, I get that. But to compare the two marginalizes the differences and in those differences lies the greatest hypocrisy spewed by the NCAA. So at least if you are going to compare the two and marginalize that which we should NOT want marginalized, concede the truth in it for Pete's sake.. 7. The kill the name group has been doing quite a bit of whining on this forum regarding name calling and person attacks. While I have not been posting much lately I have been reading everything and here is my interpretation for what it is worth. Kill the namers are lambasting the few people brave enough to throw out posts in support of the name. The personal put downs are tilted way in the direction of the Kill the namers. It seems to me to be almost like a mob mentality where people are starting to feel pretty comfortable degrading those who support keeping the name. I kinda feel like I'm watching the accused when I see the responses to a post by Davek or Fetch.. And I'm very curious as to why a few of the Kill the namers are always so close to their keyboard that they respond day and night to any keep the name post in a matter of minutes.. I know goon, that is a conspiracy theory no one is working against the name, they are all honest Sioux fans. Kelly and Fiason did everything they could to save it. Flat out exhausted themselves for years. 8. on that note, anyone every wonder why you have never heard Fiason say during one of his media sessions that while he was told by any of these "we're not scheduling you" universities how he tried really hard to convince them to not take that position because UND believed very strongly in keeping the name because EVERY vote, survey, poll ever done clearly showed that the Sioux people wanted UND to keep the name. We should ask the AD's of all of the Big Sky members how tall he stood on a soap box and fist pounded to support UND through this battle. 9. Kill the namers have taken to propaganda language rhetoric to spin their position. "nickname at all cost crowd" I've addressed this one before. It reminds me of our media, "access of evil" kind of stuff meant to evoke a negative image. Very impressive to use against your fellow North Dakotans. It inspired me to come up with "kill the namers" ya like it?? What you want UND to stop using the name- that kills it right?? How does that feel??? Murderers?? <---wow this is kinda fun and catchy, now I see where you all get it.. Once again, I will reiterate, "I understand the Kill the nickname position. It has rational to it. It has sense to it. BUT to quote, an oft repeated Kill the nickname phrase right back back at ya all, "Quite drinking the coolaid!@" and most importantly, respect the SIOUX name for what it is. It is has more value and meaning to the state of North Dakota and most of UND's current student body and US ALUMNI" than even just a great name qualifies..

Previously the most amazing thing to me in this whole name debacle was how the powers that be both locally and nationally missed the hypocrisy and racism that pervaded the NCAA's Native American Nickname policy. Then I was even more shocked at how the NCAA could have so little regard for the voice and wishes of the Sioux Tribe. ..The lack of appropriate and objective nation media coverage did not shock me one bit. Although it did vex me.. Now I have become every more amazed at how, through relentless propaganda the NCAA with the help of their good old pal- the press, have effectively taken an utterly awesome nickname (known across the nation and beyond-ya know the value of brand identification-UNDBIZ might have taken that class at UND, or how about named the best Jersey in all of North American hockey, I could continue...) and made its own fans turn on it to the point of belittling it's significance?? Baffling and sad!! You all like to quote Hak and how he said what he said about it being time to retire the name because he sees eminent cost to the University. In the same interview he clearly stated his feelings about the name by asking the press to refer to his previous statements about the name and its value and his passion for it. You all remember than press conference right?? So I guess I would ask all of you 'kill the name' folks that, while you are campaigning for the death of the name through the vote of the people who love it, show some respect for the name and for what it truly is and what it has meant to so many.. I for one, would appreciate that..

wonder what type of restrictions they are imposing there?

I read in an earlier post that farmers in the area were being limited to three RV's being parked on their property. This makes me wonder what other growth restrictions/road blocks are currently happening. For example, if restaurants are experiencing perpetual 1 hr. waite times, are there restuarants being built quickly and easily or is it a zoning and permitt nightmare? If a motel 6 is getting $130 per night, then how fast are new motels poping up? If sports car sales are booming, how fast are car lots popping up? And who is telling farmers how many RV's can be on property they own? Is zoning that powerfull in rural North Dakota or do farmers have HOA's?

Saw this in the job opening; "women and minorities encouraged to apply" - brought to you by the same pathetic administration that gave us the spinless 10 year acquiescence to the fascist and equally as ignorant NCAA. It is really amazing to me where we as americans have gone. We are clueless and defenseless to the whims of both fools and evil men. I wonder just exactly what would be the minimum IQ required to be able to see that clause as the sexist and racist statement that it is. Much in the way that the NCAA policy against Native Americans is hideously racest. Yet most of us see crap like this and get some sort of comfort in the belief that our world is a better place for it. Me, I just want to throw up

Because the NCAA has excecuted an arbitrary policy regarding Native American nicknames and excluded nicknames of other races and nationalities from their racist decree and subsequent policy, couldn't Native Americans who believe that the use of said nicknames is an honor and a valuable acknowledgement of their heratige and the disallowance of such names is discrimination, raciest and a violation of their civil rights have a claim against the NCAA? . Once again because it is arbitrary and capricious, is it not? Was this a part of the Federal Law suite filed by Spririt Lake? If not it should be. And this should be able to walk right past any private organization crap! ...Bottom line is what the NCAA is doing is wrong.. Let's not lose sight of that one fellas!!

I guess I need to elaborate; is he a big physical machine?, you know like greene or commodore? Is he a sniper like Hale? Is he a crafty skater like Genoway? Is he a see the angles shutdown penalty killer like Chorney?

I've never heard of scouting report on this guy, what kind of player is he?

I've never heard of scouting report on this guy, what kind of player is he?

My first question is; Are any of the plaintiffs in this case SIOUX? I know that most of the on-campus declarations of victimization have been by Non Sioux NAs.. Also, if the legal system rules in favor of these claims, wouldn't it effectively be setting a president that would end the use of all nicknames based on any people in all sports?

Ive really never paid attention you these NCAA rules before readingo this thread.. I have a question, What constitutes being a "booster"?

Good one!

Just got done watching the game. I always watch the Sioux games late in the evening when the house is quiet after the kids are all snuggled in bed... ...so this loss is about 15min old for me and the quiet of the house is suckn about right now... Tampa/Orlando was going to be the perfect golf/hockey/disney weekend

that's a good link you posted 82Siouxguy. I did notice on there though that the time line ended in 2003. that makes me wonder if the activity about getting rid of native american mascots has diminished send then? and if I wanted to stick to my theory I had expressed earlier I could ask a question like, "hey. if all of these organizations were concerned about native american names in general then why did they unilaterally stop there activity in 2003? all of the other names are still around redskins, chiefs, not to mention the NCAA teams? it's kind of weird that there was all that passion from all of those institutions, and then all the sudden there's nothing except the lingering effects of what they did to us in 2005? I kown there has been some activity but how much I wonder compared to when they were working out screwing us? I'M just say'n... ...Fred, am I to understand that you were both winning national championships and doing journalism back in the day. ... anyway time to focus on hockey, defense wins championships! dell rocks! He is mr. position' Simpson and Forbort have both come alive at the end of the season to make our defense very impressive!

The guide on directv doesn't show the game in hd? I would think that would be in hd?

humm??... So this happens in 2000: "Please be advised that if this logo and slogan are not approved by you no later than Friday, December 29, 2000... If the logo and slogan are not approved by the above-mentioned date, I will then write a letter on December 30, 2000, to all contractors and to everybody associated with the arena, canceling their construction contracts for the completion of the arena" Then about three months later the this comes out: http://www.aics.org/mascot/civilrights.html Commission Statement on the Use of Native American Images and Names as Sports Symbols Issued April 13, 2001. and to suggest that the NCAA was targeting UND as simply ludicrous?... Hmmm??

Any chance you know when the first NCAA NA policy discussions started. Like down to the month? I am curious??

Fred got me again! This one is legit. I should have added a clause in my challenge excluding football, ya know with the absense of conference tournamentso and all. So how about hockey and basketball(two equivalent schedule/playoff styles.

I think this falls under the category of chasing rainbows. Tell me a non conference rivalry in any college sport that would even be in the same universe as UND Minnesota? You need conference competition to sustain that.

How bout it,, I swear people have no respect for the fragile state of the Sioux hockey fan.

Your making them mutually exclusive and they are not. Ask chewey and fetch if they agree with lammy's statement. I know I do.

I cannot disagree with your sentiment. I guess it would be more pragmatic of me to just let it go. But if we are going to be realists about this situation then lets be honest about the future of Sioux/North Dakota college hockey. When you consider the move to the NCHC in conjunction with the Fighting Sioux name abolishment a pragmatic view of the programs future suggests the very real possibility of a significant diminishment of the currently prestige we all enjoy. If one would choose to deny this truth much in the same way you point out my denial regarding faith in people then I will give an example to illustrate the reality of this possibility; Since I blame Myles Brand for this who debacle I will use the Indiana basketball program as my example. Indiana used to be a Nationally respected college basketball powerhouse. After Brand rammed his fist into the heart of the program it was over. Now Indiana basketball is just another team. If you all don't think it can happen to the Fighting Sioux ya best be thinking again, just like Sicatoca helped me do here today...

Oh yeah, of course I did and as one would predict they knew nothing of it.