Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

The point was that there was made available 2 SCHOLARSHIP slots for NAs that they were having diffuculting filling because of academic reasons and that those 2 slots limited some "other" students from gaining enterance into the program.

This is the type of thing I simply cannot support. Two Indians, and two of this race, and two of this gender... you're not educating the people most likely to benefit when you get to that level.

Start with a simple tuition wavier, etc. for grad students who came from an undergrad at UND. Then a few waivers for upperclassmen (oops, upperclasspersons) who studied at North Dakota secondary schools. Then expand if these programs continue to work.

Telling a full prof that his salary will be paid (and his classroom heated, painted, etc) whether he/she teaches a class of 30 or 28 (when there are 30+ waiting to get in) doesn't make any sense to me. Much as people want to scream, this isn't "threating" nor is it "harm". Rather the harm exists in wasting scarce resources.

[BigGame]

PCM:

You post a lot of insightful things on there all the time. But, I must say, that last post is one of your best. Thanks for injecting some civility into this debate.

Fred

It's just to bad the programs don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. If something isn't working shouldn't something else be tried in order to remedy a situation?

[jloos]

The "settlement" was a terrible idea. Most people are going to perceive all Natives as the source of retiring the Sioux name. The push against the name has always been pushed by white elitists who feel the need to "educate" the rest of us. Unfortunately these same people are the ones who push for various federal monies that benefit the tribes. I hate to make generalizations, but from my experience many tribal governments are extremely corrupt. The feds have gotten better at accounting for grant money, but there are still plenty of council members who steal from the cookie jar. Standing Rock has a reputation of being more corrupt than most. From my experience, Spirit Lake has done a good job making sure these things do not happen. However, Spirit Lake still is under considerable pressure from those white elitists to not support the name.

The only way the Standing Rock council is going to approve the name is if the members are able to profit from it. This statement is not intended to be racist, but I think it is a reality.

Indian Reservations were created to isolate the tribes and prevent them from organizing against the US government. This is a fact. The US government never gave tribes cholera laced blankets or, but they did place the Indians in a situation where they could choose between being dependant on the US government or face annihalation. This was wrong, and I think most people now realize this. However in order to "fix" the problem the government first decided to blindly throw money at the reservations. Obviously this did not work. Next they decided to make them "self sufficient" by allowing them to build casinos. This has worked for some tribes, but has brought with it a host of other problems including corruption and organized crime.

This is my perception of things, I do not claim it is correct. The ultimate irony is that if the tribal councils (more so standing rock than spirit lake) do agree that UND honors the Sioux, it will be because UND is basically bribing the tribe.

[BigGame]

When an entire race of people is judged by actions/intelligence/color/living situation/parentage, etc. of a few or even more, that's racism.

Because a professor told some one that the School of Engineering couldn't find a NA to meet the math criteria to be accepted, does not mean there are not gifted in math NAs. When I read something like that I read it as saying there are not NAs who can meet the math criteria. They just didn't happen to want to apply to UND and chose to go elsewhere. Because tribal leaders do not support the Fighting Sioux name and logo, does not mean the majority of NA's do not support the name and logo.

Don't tie the name and logo up with NA programs at UND. If you don't believe there should be NA programs because it's not equal for all or because you believe that money should be earmarked for someother issue, or what ever other reason, fine. But I don't believe the programs shouldn't exist because we can't use the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

I have no problem keeping the NA programs at UND, they should remain as long as they are making a positive impact at UND and in the NA community. Maybe the School of Engineering didn't get a qualified NA applicant, but if that can and will happen in any situation. People should be judged soley upon merit, race should not be a factor in deciding scholarships and who is accepted into a program.

I really wish this would just be done with, so we can move on. I do know that if the tribes make the decision that the logo has to go because it's so disrespectful, I will encourage as many people as I can to avoid spending money on recreation on those reservations. For those of you that are more "enlighted" than I am, does that make me a racist?

[BigGame]

The ultimate irony is that if the tribal councils (more so standing rock than spirit lake) do agree that UND honors the Sioux, it will be because UND is basically bribing the tribe.

If this is the case, we need to just retire the name after next year and be done with it.

[Sioux-cia]

Not my broad brush definition.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist

rac

[star2city]

I totally agree.... It's almost as if some people (not the majority) feel that payment for using the nickname/logo is native american programs. I am left wondering if UND would have these programs if they would have never been the Sioux. I personally think that UND would have just as many programs with or without the logo.

History says otherwise. When the Fighting Sioux first became an issue in the late 60's, as an institutional response, emphasis was placed on NA programs to become more sensitive to tribal needs. USD, SDSU, and especially NDSU had far fewer institutional incentives to add NA programs, so very few programs were ever added.

[Sioux-cia]

This is the type of thing I simply cannot support. Two Indians, and two of this race, and two of this gender... you're not educating the people most likely to benefit when you get to that level.

Start with a simple tuition wavier, etc. for grad students who came from an undergrad at UND. Then a few waivers for upperclassmen (oops, upperclasspersons) who studied at North Dakota secondary schools. Then expand if these programs continue to work.

Telling a full prof that his salary will be paid (and his classroom heated, painted, etc) whether he/she teaches a class of 30 or 28 (when there are 30+ waiting to get in) doesn't make any sense to me. Much as people want to scream, this isn't "threating" nor is it "harm". Rather the harm exists in wasting scarce resources.

You keep overlooking or chose to ignore MY point. Don't eliminate NA programs at UND because we can't use a name and logo.

[Sioux-cia]

It's just to bad the programs don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. If something isn't working shouldn't something else be tried in order to remedy a situation?

Link?

[star2city]

Because a professor told some one that the School of Engineering couldn't find a NA to meet the math criteria to be accepted, does not mean there are not gifted in math NAs. When I read something like that I read it as saying there are not NAs who can meet the math criteria. They just didn't happen to want to apply to UND and chose to go elsewhere. Because tribal leaders do not support the Fighting Sioux name and logo, does not mean the majority of NA's do not support the name and logo.

Currently, its difficult to get good math and science teachers in almost any school district. On the reservation, its nearly impossible to get these teachers and to retain them. Indian students from most reservations underacheive on the match and science portions of the ACT. Again, the issue goes back to the culture of reservations and the lack of emphasis on education.

[Dak]

I have no problem keeping the NA programs at UND, they should remain as long as they are making a positive impact at UND and in the NA community. Maybe the School of Engineering didn't get a qualified NA applicant, but if that can and will happen in any situation. People should be judged soley upon merit, race should not be a factor in deciding scholarships and who is accepted into a program.

I really wish this would just be done with, so we can move on. I do know that if the tribes make the decision that the logo has to go because it's so disrespectful, I will encourage as many people as I can to avoid spending money on recreation on those reservations. For those of you that are more "enlighted" than I am, does that make me a racist?

If you are white man you are a racist.....blah blah blah

Lets change the name and move on. If it take money to keeps the name in any way i'm against it.

f$*k them.f$*K the NCAA. F$*k the NDUS F$*k them all!

Its that F*$king Clear

[Godsmack]

The "settlement" was a terrible idea. Most people are going to perceive all Natives as the source of retiring the Sioux name. The push against the name has always been pushed by white elitists who feel the need to "educate" the rest of us. Unfortunately these same people are the ones who push for various federal monies that benefit the tribes. I hate to make generalizations, but from my experience many tribal governments are extremely corrupt. The feds have gotten better at accounting for grant money, but there are still plenty of council members who steal from the cookie jar. Standing Rock has a reputation of being more corrupt than most. From my experience, Spirit Lake has done a good job making sure these things do not happen. However, Spirit Lake still is under considerable pressure from those white elitists to not support the name.

The only way the Standing Rock council is going to approve the name is if the members are able to profit from it. This statement is not intended to be racist, but I think it is a reality.

Indian Reservations were created to isolate the tribes and prevent them from organizing against the US government. This is a fact. The US government never gave tribes cholera laced blankets or, but they did place the Indians in a situation where they could choose between being dependant on the US government or face annihalation. This was wrong, and I think most people now realize this. However in order to "fix" the problem the government first decided to blindly throw money at the reservations. Obviously this did not work. Next they decided to make them "self sufficient" by allowing them to build casinos. This has worked for some tribes, but has brought with it a host of other problems including corruption and organized crime.

This is my perception of things, I do not claim it is correct. The ultimate irony is that if the tribal councils (more so standing rock than spirit lake) do agree that UND honors the Sioux, it will be because UND is basically bribing the tribe.

Well put!!! I wonder if policy makers in Washington have ever considered doing away with reservations as assimilation would clearly be a better alternative to what there has been since the reservations were first created. I also want to reitterate the point made about how through this settlement, the white elitists at NCAA headquarters have no transferred the responsibility of dropping the name onto the NA tribes, which is clearly not fair to the NA's. Should the name be dropped, I don't think retribution is a reasonable way to go although I fully understand how some here would be upset. Again, I just don't think we should try to "buy" anyone's support as then we're not really getting their true support for the name in the first place.

[BigGame]

Link?

It's an opinion, if you read it calmly and correctly it should appear that way. But I am pretty sure I am at least partially correct in my opinion based upon what I have seen. Does that indicate that I am completey correct, of course not, but if I did have proof and offered it I am sure myself and the whatever evidence I cited would be called racist by some.

[Oxbow6]

Not my broad brush definition.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist

rac

[GeauxSioux]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

The best post on this thread!

I'm in favor of continuing NA programs/classes regardless of what happens with the name. UND is in a position to help the Native American people through education that can hopefully solve some of the ills that occur on the reservations. It has been said that "most of the NA people are in favor of the nickname". If you discontinue NA programs and classes, you are not hurting Ron His Horse is Thunder, you are hurting the very people that agree with the nickname and would benefit from these programs.

Additionally, as I said in a thread a while back, I thoroughly enjoyed the Indian Studies classes I took at UND.

[MafiaMan]

This argument has become tireless and exhausting. The issue of the Sioux nickname does indeed bring racists out of the closet and if I were an American Indian, I'd probably read these threads and those on gfherald.com and be thoroughly disgusted. It's time to retire the nickname and move forward. I, for one, have had enough.

[Sioux-cia]

1. Has there been some "racist" posts here--yes. 2. But when you continually use the word "ALL" to make your point and try to put everyone in the same category, you are getting close to the definition you cited above.

1. Yes

2. I used "ALL" ? Too busy to go back and check but if I did, I apologise.

[Chewey]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

Well, you should take in to account that people are very disappointed and angry. Those feelings are often expressed inartfully and I speak from experience there. That does not mean that people are racist. Some of what has been said has been directed at Ron His Horse Is Thunder and his NA and non-NA cohorts. I can't speak for everyone but don't think anyone, if asked when he or she is not angry, would truly advocate for the elimination of programs that help a group of people in need. Will the programs suffer due to apathy or grudges held? Only time will tell that but I don't think anyone would come out advocating for it simpy because of a name change. Quid pro quo was not the coin when the programs were started and it should not be the coin for them to be maintained. Suffice it to say that people are angry and that they say things inartfully when they are angry.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

You keep overlooking or chose to ignore MY point. Don't eliminate NA programs at UND because we can't use a name and logo.

This is simply not true. I responded yesterday.

Well, just because this evaluation wasn't done in 2006 or 2005 is no reason why it shouldn't be done in 2007 and beyond.

Don't tie it in with the name and logo: but don't use the loss of the name and logo and the hyperbole of "threats" and "harm" as an excuse

NOT

to do it either.

I consider the words "don't tie it in with the name and logo" as responsive.

[Taz Boy]

The best post on this thread!

Not anymore. Now MINE is the best post on this thread. Ha HA!

taz

[Sioux-cia]

But when you continually use the word "ALL" to make your point...

Found the time and went through all my posts and NO WHERE do I use the word "ALL" to make my point. I don't call anyone a racist. I posted, "This thread is sounding very racist to this member."

Who's posting with a broad brush?

[BigGame]

TMBG

[The Sicatoka]

Anyone (besides PCM, who asked the question of me) wondering why there was no prior media attention or notice to a Standing Rock vote on the moniker?

Does that seem strange to anyone else? Shouldn't a vote like that be on an open records agenda? Wouldn't you expect that all voting members would have attended such an important meeting?

Where's the Fargo Forum or the GF Herald digging into history of key players of this (like they did with a state district judge)?

[Hawkster]

Anyone (besides PCM, who asked the question of me) wondering why there was no prior media attention or notice to a Standing Rock vote on the moniker?

Does that seem strange to anyone else? Shouldn't a vote like that be on an open records agenda? Wouldn't you expect that all voting members would have attended such an important meeting?

Where's the Fargo Forum or the GF Herald digging into history of key players of this (like they did with a state district judge)?

Indian nations are autonomous, so they operate under their own jurisdictional decree. They don't need to tell us anything, outside of the fact that they resent us, UND, using their name.

[The Sicatoka]

Indian nations are autonomous, so they operate under their own jurisdictional decree. They don't need to tell us anything, outside of the fact that they resent us, UND, using their name.

I prefer governments that operate in the sunshine, with laws requiring it.

To each their own I guess.

PS - I let "autonomous" slide because it was too easy.