Facilities Master Plan

[MplsBison]

So if the IPF begins construction, what's the next athletic facility need?

There's been talk about an addition to the UND Wellness Center for swimming (Olympic pool, diving pool, smaller lap pool).

Tennis should be set with the Grand Forks Wellness Center.

Baseball has needs, but barring a domed stadium for baseball, Hyslop would basically be theirs to share with the golf and softball teams.

A retractable stadium can be talked about, but wouldn't be a reality without a donation well in excess of the Engelstad's.

A new outdoor track/soccer field and parking ramp north of Memorial wouldn't be needed unless a new campus stadium becomes a reality.

IMHO, the real need is a basketball arena that has video capability, club seating, suites, and possibly with ice so it can be used for smaller and more intimate crowds that women's hockey bring. Club seating, suites, video capability (think advertising), and concourses with decent concessions - not general tickets sold - are the bread and butter of basketball revenue for mid-major schools. The Betty offers none of that - it's a very nice gym but it's definitely not an entertainment destination. To sustain basketball programs, a 5-6000 seat arena, with amenities that bring in the bigger bucks, is needed. A size about like the Scheels Arena that is designed primarily for basketball but can be converted to hockey. As stated before, the Ralph offers almost no weekend dates between men's and women's hockey, and moreover, is needed for practice for almost every day. The Ralph's lower bowl simply isn't available for many times. The Alerus offers suites, but those suites have no value for basketball.

The Betty was designed to be a basketball practice facility and is a very nice facility for that purpose and for volleyball - but there is no way a Betty can support basketball programs that will soon need $200,000 coaches salaries just to keep somebody semi-capable around.

The flexibility of a true secondary arena would make the REA even grander (and a much larger money generator for UND athletics). ND HS school tournaments, World Jr championships, a Chicago-showcase type event, multiple-event weekends with alternating times could all be hosted with ease. Just need a $30 million donor for this one.

What you say makes sense, but at the same time you are going to have a very hard go of it trying to convince most people that UND/Grand Forks needs both the Ralph and a new 6k arena with the same amenities as the Ralph.

It just isn't going to look good, no matter how well you explain the need. Not when several arenas host NBA, NHL and more - seems like there should be a way to host both college hockey (full arena) and college basketball (lower arena only) in the same arena.

Sans a new bball arena - I think UND next big money item is a bball practice facility. Maybe the "Phil Jackson Center?"

[star2city]

What you say makes sense, but at the same time you are going to have a very hard go of it trying to convince most people that UND/Grand Forks needs both the Ralph and a new 6k arena with the same amenities as the Ralph.

It just isn't going to look good, no matter how well you explain the need. Not when several arenas host NBA, NHL and more - seems like there should be a way to host both college hockey (full arena) and college basketball (lower arena only) in the same arena.

Sans a new bball arena - I think UND next big money item is a bball practice facility. Maybe the "Phil Jackson Center?"

The Betty is the practice facility - a brass and leather and granite plated one at that. Four courts can be used simultaneously (although not efficiently.) The Betty has like eight locker rooms, with home locker rooms for Volleyball, M&W basketball, and W Soccer, offices for all the coaches, as well as weight rooms and study rooms.

Again, between men's and women's hockey, there just are not enough weekend dates to meaningfully schedule the Ralph for men's and women's basketball, even for the lower bowl.

If the REA Olympic Arena had been made expandable to 3000 seats or more for women's hockey, then the Ralph and it's lower bowl would have every other weekend available. But the Olympic Arena can not be expanded in an decent way beyond its 1200 seats.

It's also not as if voter approval would be required, only a substantial donation. When the Betty was built, the structure was financed not through donations, but through bonds. (Many donations came in to upgrade the original plan for plastic seats to leather, as well other Ralph-like accessories.) It's my understanding that the REA has paid off those bonds (someone correct me otherwise). If a major donation was given for perhaps half the cost, the REA could float another bond issue to pay for an arena. It's really not that far-fetched.

An indoor practice facility is needed, but offers almost no cash flow back into UND athletics directly (yes, an IPF can be rented out periodically, and the IPF would be a tremendous resource for football recruiting, which would help attendance, but that is indirect ). A smaller arena with suites, club seating, and video monitorsoffers something the IPF can't - cash flow - and is about the only way a UND basketball program can break even. The Betty - even if it sells out - just doesn't have the extras that are needed to bring in revenue and sell the game to people under 30.

UNC's Dean Smith Center and UK's Rupp Arena are massive arenas (around 23 - 24 k seats each). But guess what, those arenas are in many ways dinosaurs in this arena age. Louisville's arena allows Louisville to have much higher basketball revenue than those two bigger programs, even with UNC's and UK's attendance advantages. Again, suites, club seating, and advertising gives Louisville a huge advantage over those two schools in generating revenue.

True sports fans may hate this, but college sports is maybe more about entertainment and socializing than about the game. Why is tailgating so popular? Why is the Ralph so popular? In large part because of the social and entertainment aspect. The Betty offers neither to any degree. The Ralph's lower bowl just isn't available.

At UND, men's hockey is what underwrites practically everything. Football and basketball run huge deficits and need the facilities to meaningfully contribute financially. The beauty of Louisville basketball is that was the only thing Louisville athletics had going for it 10+ years ago. Louisville was able to cash flow enough from basketball (without the help of being in a major college league) to help build up all their other facilities - before Louisville was even in the Big East. Now Louisville has first rate facilities in nearly everything. Louisville's other sports like football and baseball can now actually make money - putting less pressure on basketball to perform financially.

[IrishSiouxFan]

I wonder if the REA would be willing to build a new main hockey arena onto the existing facility, one that could seat 16,000-20,000. They could use the existing main arena for basketball and women's hockey. I think the REA has proven that they could easily fill $16,000- $20,000 seats, they could also open up 2,000-3,000 more student tickets.

[star2city]

I wonder if the REA would be willing to build a new main hockey arena onto the existing facility, one that could seat 16,000-20,000. They could use the existing main arena for basketball and women's hockey. I think the REA has proven that they could easily fill $16,000- $20,000 seats, they could also open up 2,000-3,000 more student tickets.

Got $200,000,000+ to donate? If UND had that kind of money, it would build a 30,000 seat retractable-roof stadium. After football is complete, set up the an ice-rink on the turf and have a football stadium classic - like in Boston, Madison, Ann Arbor, or Lansing. Would get 30,000+ in for a Minnesota game.

[IrishSiouxFan]

Got $200,000,000+ to donate? If UND had that kind of money, it would build a 30,000 seat retractable-roof stadium. After football is complete, set up the an ice-rink on the turf and have a football stadium classic - like in Boston, Madison, Ann Arbor, or Lansing. Would get 30,000+ in for a Minnesota game.

I'm sure the REA wouldn't like that at all. Why doesn't Minnesota do an outdoor classic game in their new stadium, they could sell it out for a UND/Gopher game. Also, how much would it really cost to build a new arena that could seat 20,000, another $100,000?

[star2city]

I'm sure the REA wouldn't like that at all. Why doesn't Minnesota do an outdoor classic game in their new stadium, they could sell it out for a UND/Gopher game. Also, how much would it really cost to build a new arena that could seat 20,000, another $100,000?

If an on-campus football stadium was ever built at UND, the REA management would almost have to run it. They have the expertise to make a game day run smoothly and already have the people (ticket systems, greeters, security, concessions, management etc).

The Islanders attempt to get funding for a new arena from voters was rejected: $400 mill was the projected cost. Figure half the price for ND compared to suburban Long Island, then add a premium back on for granite, brass, and leather. Going from suburban to urban environments can almost double the cost again: the new Barclay's Center in Brooklyn will cost $800 mill.

To replicate the REA now with 11,600 seats would be closer to $200 mill than $110 mill because of steel and inflation. Nearly doubling the size would double the cost.

[IrishSiouxFan]

If an on-campus football stadium was ever built at UND, the REA management would almost have to run it. They have the expertise to make a game day run smoothly and already have the people (ticket systems, greeters, security, concessions, management etc).

The Islanders attempt to get funding for a new arena from voters was rejected: $400 mill was the projected cost. Figure half the price for ND compared to suburban Long Island, then add a premium back on for granite, brass, and leather. Going from suburban to urban environments can almost double the cost again: the new Barclay's Center in Brooklyn will cost $800 mill.

To replicate the REA now with 11,600 seats would be closer to $200 mill than $110 mill because of steel and inflation. Nearly doubling the size would double the cost.

Huge oversight in not building the REA with the ability to expand. Just my opinion, still a top notch facility.

[IrishSiouxFan]

If an on-campus football stadium was ever built at UND, the REA management would almost have to run it. They have the expertise to make a game day run smoothly and already have the people (ticket systems, greeters, security, concessions, management etc).

The Islanders attempt to get funding for a new arena from voters was rejected: $400 mill was the projected cost. Figure half the price for ND compared to suburban Long Island, then add a premium back on for granite, brass, and leather. Going from suburban to urban environments can almost double the cost again: the new Barclay's Center in Brooklyn will cost $800 mill.

To replicate the REA now with 11,600 seats would be closer to $200 mill than $110 mill because of steel and inflation. Nearly doubling the size would double the cost.

DO you happen to know how much revenue the REA generates for UND each year?

[Smoggy]

Huge oversight in not building the REA with the ability to expand. Just my opinion, still a top notch facility.

When it was being built I don't think there were too many people that figured it would be filled every night. It is what the fourth largest college hockey arena behind Omaha and Wisconsin and Ohio State? I may be missing a team that plays in a large facility that they don't own or in another basketball facility.

Consider also that the demand for tickets has really helped amp up Fighting Sioux Club money from those that want to keep season tickets. Some one will pay the higher fees. Would the demand filling a larger stadium be there and be sustained???

I think the size is just about perfect for hockey. Too much bigger and the fans are starting to be too far from the action.

[darell1976]

I wonder if UND basketball really takes off if people will cry for a bigger arena.

[The Sicatoka]

I wonder if UND basketball really takes off if people will cry for a bigger arena.

It has one available to it called ... "Alerus Center".

In my (admittedly twisted, delusional, fantasy) world, if the site plan for old Memorial came to pass (ITF, new FB stadium that is also soccer and lacrosse capable) I'd move UND BB there.

[IrishSiouxFan]

It has one available to it called ... "Alerus Center".

In my (admittedly twisted, delusional, fantasy) world, if the site plan for old Memorial came to pass (ITF, new FB stadium that is also soccer and lacrosse capable) I'd move UND BB there.

That could work, I wonder when the naming rights expire for the Alerus. How cool would it be to watch basketball in the "Phil Jackson" arena!

[UNDColorado]

That could work, I wonder when the naming rights expire for the Alerus. How cool would it be to watch basketball in the "Phil Jackson" arena!

That would be pretty cool! It really is a nice facility so it should be used for some sports down the road (a bit of renovation perhaps), but at this point who knows right.

[The Sicatoka]

Phil Jackson Court at the Alerus Center.

[Torpedo]

Personally I think the best master plan for a new basketball court would be at the Hyslop. I know it would be a difficult construction project, but if the multi-purpose gym was combined with the main court area that could make plenty of room for a 10K plus seating basketball court. Again I don't know if the logistics of reconstructing the interior of Hyslop is even possible, but it would be absolutely the best option.

Another thing with the potential of a new football stadium on the Memorial site is that I don't see any problem at all with tailgating, even if there is a second parking ramp addition. There is a lot of parking lot space directly to the west of memorial and it extends beneath the overpass onto the other side. If the pool is removed from the Hyslop complex, and a new pool built near the Wellness center, that makes even more room for tailgating to the west of the stadium. I think everyone is overestimating the amount of space needed for tailgating. Only a small fraction of the Alerus parking lot is used for tailgating, correct? I would contend that the amount of flat lot parking at the Memorial site would equal or be greater than what is currently utilized at the Alerus Center.

[ticklethetwine]

Personally I think the best master plan for a new basketball court would be at the Hyslop. I know it would be a difficult construction project, but if the multi-purpose gym was combined with the main court area that could make plenty of room for a 10K plus seating basketball court. Again I don't know if the logistics of reconstructing the interior of Hyslop is even possible, but it would be absolutely the best option.

Another thing with the potential of a new football stadium on the Memorial site is that I don't see any problem at all with tailgating, even if there is a second parking ramp addition. There is a lot of parking lot space directly to the west of memorial and it extends beneath the overpass onto the other side. If the pool is removed from the Hyslop complex, and a new pool built near the Wellness center, that makes even more room for tailgating to the west of the stadium. I think everyone is overestimating the amount of space needed for tailgating. Only a small fraction of the Alerus parking lot is used for tailgating, correct? I would contend that the amount of flat lot parking at the Memorial site would equal or be greater than what is currently utilized at the Alerus Center.

I agree but Hyslop is full of asbestos and from the last I heard it would be cheaper to tear it down and build new then have to clean up the asbestos and renovate.

[bincitysioux]

Another blurb about new turf going into the Alerus............

SFI

The Sioux are practicing in the Alerus Center all week to get used to the

[MplsBison]

The Betty is the practice facility - a brass and leather and granite plated one at that. Four courts can be used simultaneously (although not efficiently.) The Betty has like eight locker rooms, with home locker rooms for Volleyball, M&W basketball, and W Soccer, offices for all the coaches, as well as weight rooms and study rooms.

Again, between men's and women's hockey, there just are not enough weekend dates to meaningfully schedule the Ralph for men's and women's basketball, even for the lower bowl.

If the REA Olympic Arena had been made expandable to 3000 seats or more for women's hockey, then the Ralph and it's lower bowl would have every other weekend available. But the Olympic Arena can not be expanded in an decent way beyond its 1200 seats.

It's also not as if voter approval would be required, only a substantial donation. When the Betty was built, the structure was financed not through donations, but through bonds. (Many donations came in to upgrade the original plan for plastic seats to leather, as well other Ralph-like accessories.) It's my understanding that the REA has paid off those bonds (someone correct me otherwise). If a major donation was given for perhaps half the cost, the REA could float another bond issue to pay for an arena. It's really not that far-fetched.

An indoor practice facility is needed, but offers almost no cash flow back into UND athletics directly (yes, an IPF can be rented out periodically, and the IPF would be a tremendous resource for football recruiting, which would help attendance, but that is indirect ). A smaller arena with suites, club seating, and video monitorsoffers something the IPF can't - cash flow - and is about the only way a UND basketball program can break even. The Betty - even if it sells out - just doesn't have the extras that are needed to bring in revenue and sell the game to people under 30.

UNC's Dean Smith Center and UK's Rupp Arena are massive arenas (around 23 - 24 k seats each). But guess what, those arenas are in many ways dinosaurs in this arena age. Louisville's arena allows Louisville to have much higher basketball revenue than those two bigger programs, even with UNC's and UK's attendance advantages. Again, suites, club seating, and advertising gives Louisville a huge advantage over those two schools in generating revenue.

True sports fans may hate this, but college sports is maybe more about entertainment and socializing than about the game. Why is tailgating so popular? Why is the Ralph so popular? In large part because of the social and entertainment aspect. The Betty offers neither to any degree. The Ralph's lower bowl just isn't available.

At UND, men's hockey is what underwrites practically everything. Football and basketball run huge deficits and need the facilities to meaningfully contribute financially. The beauty of Louisville basketball is that was the only thing Louisville athletics had going for it 10+ years ago. Louisville was able to cash flow enough from basketball (without the help of being in a major college league) to help build up all their other facilities - before Louisville was even in the Big East. Now Louisville has first rate facilities in nearly everything. Louisville's other sports like football and baseball can now actually make money - putting less pressure on basketball to perform financially.

Great points and you're correct about the need for amenities at bball games in order for UND bball to maximize revenue.

But the problem still remains: you already have a perfectly good arena with those amenities. The REA can host bball and hockey in the same weekend. It's hardly the impossible job you're making it out to be. All you do is lay down something on the ice and lay the bball floor on top of it. You're probably talking about a matter of hours to set-up/take-down.

Men's and women's bball could play a 12:30 - 2:30 double header and the ice would be ready for a 7:00 night game on a Saturday - I really don't think that would be hard to do.

[IrishSiouxFan]

Does anybody know if it would be possible to renovate the Alerus so that additional seating is added at both end zones in a bowl shape? Seems like it should be able to be done for around $20 million or so, if we could squeeze 5,000-10,000 more seats out of a renovation without sacrificing comfort we might have a FBS ready facility on our hands.

[star2city]

Great points and you're correct about the need for amenities at bball games in order for UND bball to maximize revenue.

But the problem still remains: you already have a perfectly good arena with those amenities. The REA can host bball and hockey in the same weekend. It's hardly the impossible job you're making it out to be. All you do is lay down something on the ice and lay the bball floor on top of it. You're probably talking about a matter of hours to set-up/take-down.

Men's and women's bball could play a 12:30 - 2:30 double header and the ice would be ready for a 7:00 night game on a Saturday - I really don't think that would be hard to do.

As mentioned earlier, women's hockey also takes up a number of dates in the Ralph and doesn't really need the seating of the Ralph. Four teams taking the same floor becomes a logistical nightmare.

The proposal I suggested on an smaller ice rink / basketball that would be the arena converted over - sometimes on the same weekend. The Ralph would be dedicated to practice / hockey and any other event where crowds of more than 5000 were expected.

To convert a rink back and forth between floors on the same time is certainly possible, as Wisconsin does it all the time.

But Wisconsin is also building a women's hockey rink adjacent to Kohl's precisely because they want to limit the number of conversions between basketball and hockey and to increase scheduling flexibility. Wisconsin women's hockey will still use Kohl's main rink on days with huge attendance promotions.

Time lapse of Kohl conversion

[star2city]

Does anybody know if it would be possible to renovate the Alerus so that additional seating is added at both end zones in a bowl shape? Seems like it should be able to be done for around $20 million or so, if we could squeeze 5,000-10,000 more seats out of a renovation without sacrificing comfort we might have a FBS ready facility on our hands.

A U-shaped Alerus modified for basketball at one end could make some sense for both basketball and football. Trouble is the city-owned part of it makes it difficult politically.

[UNDColorado]

A U-shaped Alerus modified for basketball at one end could make some sense for both basketball and football. Trouble is the city-owned part of it makes it difficult politically.

If possible renovating the Al into a u shaped stadium would be great; while they are at it add some skylights in to add some natural light. But let's start winning consistently starting tomorrow before we do anything!

[UNDColorado]

A U-shaped Alerus modified for basketball at one end could make some sense for both basketball and football. Trouble is the city-owned part of it makes it difficult politically.

If possible renovating the Al into a u shaped stadium would be great; while they are at it put some skylights in to add some natural light. But let's start winning consistently starting tomorrow before we do anything!

[bincitysioux]

Another blurb about new turf going into the Alerus............

SFI

Ironically, on the coach's show tonight Coach Mussman pointed out that the turf in the Alerus has basically become a great advantage because there are just a few stadiums left in the country that have it so nobody is really used to playing on it. Even obtaining the proper shoes to play on the carpet can be a problem. He said he actually likes it............................

[IrishSiouxFan]

A U-shaped Alerus modified for basketball at one end could make some sense for both basketball and football. Trouble is the city-owned part of it makes it difficult politically.

Politically, Grand Forks has to be worried about UND eventually building a larger stadium on campus. If they could find a way to expand it to seat 25,000 plus people they could ensure that UND would not outgrow the facility for at least another 20-30 years. They could even host a hockey game or tournament there to help increase revenue.