Buning Says UND Moving

[sultan]

NDSU has a few areas of strength in their academics too. They don't need to hang their heads that low. Ndsu needs to give it time. UND didn't attain all the high academic areas over night(Medicine, Law, Aviation, etc.). I guess NDSU will always be a follower to UND in academics. There is nothing wrong with second place.

[IowaBison]

They don't need to hang their heads that low.

We don't.

Anyone who thinks that UND is in a different class than NDSU academically is off their nut.

[Shawn-O]

We don't.

Anyone who thinks that UND is in a different class than NDSU academically is off their nut.

Then I guess US News and World Report is off their rocker. UND, 3rd Tier. NDSU, 4th Tier. Princeton Review must be cracked, too. And yes, they are both fine schools.

[IowaBison]

Then I guess US News and World Report is off their rocker. UND, 3rd Tier. NDSU, 4th Tier. Princeton Review must be cracked, too. And yes, they are both fine schools.

Find me an objective measure anywhere and I'll buy you a coke.

(US News and World Report ranking system is a certified piece of garbage-there are thousands of university administrators and educators who have the same opinion. Putting any stock into a publication like the Princeton Review that identifies 'party schools' and 'dodge ball targets' seems silly as well.)

[WYOBISONMAN]

Easy.....easy........let's not get silly and start knocking partying at college.......this thread is turning way ugly...

[tnt]

Find me an objective measure anywhere and I'll buy you a coke.

(US News and World Report ranking system is a certified piece of garbage-there are thousands of university administrators and educators who have the same opinion. Putting any stock into a publication like the Princeton Review that identifies 'party schools' and 'dodge ball targets' seems silly as well.)

Yet you come on to this board and expect anyone to think you are objective? At least those publications are removed from the Alumni/Fan bias we see on boards like this. I'm sure you will give us the name of an objective publication on such matters -- provided it corresponds with something you want to hear.

[IowaBison]

Actually, tnt, I won't, as I was serious about not having knowledge of an objective ranking of undergraduate education.

I do appreciate the snideness in your remarks though.

{Edit: I don't know of one for graduate or professional education either.}

[dlsiouxfan]

Actually, tnt, I won't, as I was serious about not having knowledge of an objective ranking of undergraduate education.

I do appreciate the snideness in your remarks though.

{Edit: I don't know of one for graduate or professional education either.}

Actually you are right they both are great schools. They both have excellent programs and in addition to having certain programs that are unique to each school they also have a number of programs that overlap. In some of these areas both schools excel and in other areas one school may have a distinct advantage. UND fans may come off as arrogant when talking about some of the fine programs here at UND, but I would say no less so than ndsu fans who come on here and state that ndsu is somehow more deserving of being considered a D-I institution than UND is when the evidence clearly shows that isn't the case. They both are excellent schools and fit the profile of Division I level institutions.

[NanoBison]

Then I guess US News and World Report is off their rocker. UND, 3rd Tier. NDSU, 4th Tier. Princeton Review must be cracked, too. And yes, they are both fine schools.

You're proud to say your a 3rd Tier school? The only reason any of those stupid lists exist, is to sell more magazines. You want a list, goto the Carnegie Foundation and look up the research rankings.

[Csonked Out]

You are comparing apples to oranges here academics wise. NDSU is very strong in Pharmacy, Engineering and Agriculture. UND is strong in Business, Law, Aviation, and Medicine. So depending on what you're going into either school could look strong, and yes I go to UND but NDSU does have a better engineering school, while UND has a better business school having been accredited for almost 20 years longer. I personally am quite proud of the fact that there is a strong program for most any major a person may want to go to in the state of ND. If i was going into pharmaceuticals i would have gone to NDSU in a second, but i chose business so coming to UND who is rated one of the top 25 most connected universities was an obvious choice. Anyone who stops the flaming and looks at the facts for a second could see this.

[The Sicatoka]

... goto the Carnegie Foundation and look up the research rankings.

Don't have to.

They're in the "Attachements" PDF in the Final Report to Dr. Kupchella, pages 22-25 (of 127).

[IowaBison]

research is not education.

[dlsiouxfan]

research is not education.

Excellent point, unfortunately increasing emphasis on research can have negative effects towards student learning. A university with limited resources and faculty can sometimes put too much emphasis on research, which means instead of professors spending time with students or teaching classes they're putting together research projects and a TA is handing out study guides and student learning is affected. I'm not saying that is the case here at UND or at ndsu and I know those dollars are important, but an appropriate balance needs to be kept.

[IowaBison]

You are comparing apples to oranges here academics wise. NDSU is very strong in Pharmacy, Engineering and Agriculture. UND is strong in Business, Law, Aviation, and Medicine. So depending on what you're going into either school could look strong, and yes I go to UND but NDSU does have a better engineering school, while UND has a better business school having been accredited for almost 20 years longer. I personally am quite proud of the fact that there is a strong program for most any major a person may want to go to in the state of ND. If i was going into pharmaceuticals i would have gone to NDSU in a second, but i chose business so coming to UND who is rated one of the top 25 most connected universities was an obvious choice. Anyone who stops the flaming and looks at the facts for a second could see this.

I agree almost completely with this.

Colleges and universities are complex systems whose primary assets are it people and how they are managed.

As such it takes a pretty significant difference to say that one institution's education program is better than anothers, it is easier to compare apples and oranges if I may use fightingbooya's analogy, with fruit being sub-units of each institution.

That being said, according to the Iowa Bison rating system NDSU and UND are in the same class (Gamma Class to be exact) for both undergraduate and graduate education.

[IowaBison]

Excellent point, unfortunately increasing emphasis on research can have negative effects towards student learning. A university with limited resources and faculty can sometimes put too much emphasis on research, which means instead of professors spending time with students or teaching classes they're putting together research projects and a TA is handing out study guides and student learning is affected. I'm not saying that is the case here at UND or at ndsu and I know those dollars are important, but an appropriate balance needs to be kept.

well, academic departments and affiliated research programs aren't the first pair to over extend and do things half-assed

[BobIwabuchiFan]

For the guy who thinks that NDSU has the better Engineering school, they need to do some more investigation. Accredited programs in Chemical, Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Geological, and Industrial Technology have UND far ahead of its southern cousins along with corresponding Masters and PhD programs to match. Also consider that the Engineering Department at UND has been around for more than 75 years and probably was at least 40 years old when NDSU was still named the North Dakota School of Agricultural Science - NDSAS (And no, I'm not being sarcastic because thats what they used to be called!). All you have to do is look in the Upson building to see an Engineering Wall of Fame that simply rivals our counterparts to the South - Regardless if its my Arrogance or Pride, its the truth!

Hope it doesn't hurt to much!!

BobIwabuchiFan

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Easy.....easy........let's not get silly and start knocking partying at college.......this thread is turning way ugly...

I agree with the WYOBISONMAN, if the arguement gets to the point of demonizing partying, then the administrators need to jump and stop that type of anti-partying SMACK!

[NanoBison]

Agree with you 100%. Both are decent schools and have strengths in their reputable programs.

Except that NDSU does have the better Engineering Program. Thats a fact.

[IowaBison]

For the guy who thinks that NDSU has the better Engineering school, they need to do some more investigation. Accredited programs in Chemical, Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Geological, and Industrial Technology have UND far ahead of its southern cousins along with corresponding Masters and PhD programs to match. Also consider that the Engineering Department at UND has been around for more than 75 years and probably was at least 40 years old when NDSU was still named the North Dakota School of Agricultural Science - NDSAS (And no, I'm not being sarcastic because thats what they used to be called!). All you have to do is look in the Upson building to see an Engineering Wall of Fame that simply rivals our counterparts to the South - Regardless if its my Arrogance or Pride, its the truth!

Hope it doesn't hurt to much!!

BobIwabuchiFan

1) it was the NDAC.

2) NDSU has more accredited engineering programs (8) than UND (6). Our architecture, construction management, and landscape architecture programs are also accredited.

3) I have no idea what difference point 2) makes, but it's true.

4) NDSU has master's and Ph.D. programs as well

5) see 3) and substitute 4) for 2)

[dlsiouxfan]

As for the engineering point I've heard that there are certain fields of engineering where UND is superior and certain fields where ndsu is superior. I'm not certain which because I'm not an engineering student. I would also argue that it could be one of the areas where both schools have excellent programs and there isn't a tangible difference in the quality of the two programs.

[DI IN FARGO]

I guess I'm kind of in a no- win situation. You insinuate that UND hasn't taken the steps forward to be considered a D-I institution academically. I refute that statement and you call me arrogant. Well guess what call me arrogant I'm not saying anything the rest of the country isn't saying. UND produces some of the top students and alumni in the country- bar none.

I will make one point and this is not isolated at UND. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact. The problem in this country in general when it comes to fiscal policy whether it be government, business, academia, or on a personal level is spending vs. income. UND when you refer to athletics has been operating at a negative. Given Title IX and the hockey situation its no suprise. But the fact is when you consistently spend more then you take in there is something wrong with that picture. So to be looking at spending more when your fiscal house is not in order in the first place in my opinion is wrong. As has been pointed out by many whether you agree or not it appears there are many questions that are legitmate regarding the funding of this move. How anyone can support a huge move without those questions answered and answered honestly not by a committee put together to rubber stamp a move one way or the other is beyond me.

[Siouxfan06]

K, here's the thing.....UND will always produce the Doctors, Lawyers, and Pilots. NDSU will always produce the farmers and the engineers. Although UND also has engineering and both schools have multiple programs that intertwine, THESE are what the schools are KNOWN for....can we stop arguing about which school is academically better, because we will never come to a resolution on that, and get back to talking about sports?

[dlsiouxfan]

I will make one point and this is not isolated at UND. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact. The problem in this country in general when it comes to fiscal policy whether it be government, business, academia, or on a personal level is spending vs. income. UND when you refer to athletics has been operating at a negative. Given Title IX and the hockey situation its no suprise. But the fact is when you consistently spend more then you take in there is something wrong with that picture. So to be looking at spending more when your fiscal house is not in order in the first place in my opinion is wrong. As has been pointed out by many whether you agree or not it appears there are many questions that are legitmate regarding the funding of this move. How anyone can support a huge move without those questions answered and answered honestly not by a committee put together to rubber stamp a move one way or the other is beyond me.

I believe you also have to look at the causes of a deficit. If UND's deficit is a result of increased costs of remaining Division II (forced to pay larger guarantees, more expensive travel for nonconference games) and no new sources of revenue in division II then moving to Division I is the only viable option for taking care of that deficit. I also believe that when UND does declare a Division I move it will be financially supported by the alumni at least to the same level as ndsu's was.

[TheBisonator]

What all of you seem to be forgetting is that NDSU has a world-renowned architecture program. Our learning facilities are the envy of the national accredidation board for architecture education (NCARB). They visited our campus recently, and told us that they have never seen such quality facilities for an architecture school. I was always told that there are three humanistic professions in this world: Medicine, law and architecture. NDSU has one of them, and a highly respected one at that. There are a LOT of architecture grads from NDSU that are now making the kind of money that most UND lawyers, doctors and pilots would only dream of obtaining. I agree that both schools have their academic strong points. NDSU has architecture, engineering, pharmacy, agriculture and research, and UND has business, law, aviation, medicine and liberal arts. Both schools are North Dakota's twin flagship schools, the only difference is that one is in DI and one is in DII. I don't think that the seperation of athletics should turn this into a pissing match. Both universities are a lot more alike than you think.

[DI IN FARGO]

I believe you also have to look at the causes of a deficit. If UND's deficit is a result of increased costs of remaining Division II (forced to pay larger guarantees, more expensive travel for nonconference games) and no new sources of revenue in division II then moving to Division I is the only viable option for taking care of that deficit. I also believe that when UND does declare a Division I move it will be financially supported by the alumni at least to the same level as ndsu's was.

One of probably many reasons your in the red is due to title IX and womens hockey. Its a money loser and always will be there is no getting around that. Moving up isn't going to change that, actually increased schollies will cause more red ink for you. As to your remark about alumni support I wouldn't be so sure, your own study (take it for what its worth) didn't show the type of support your claiming will be there. Again you prove my point, its like saying I'm going to go buy something and I'll worry about paying for it later. In reality you have no way of guaranteeing that type of support.