UND Lacrosse Poll

[star2city]

star2city- It's really hard to argue with what you've posted. It's very informative, thank you.

The only thing I'd say is regarding swimming and diving. It would be a hard sport, even if no one here cares about it, to drop because they have something like 23 DII NC titles.

The difficulty of dropping of any sport shouldn't be trivialized. Many individuals and alums have significantly contributed to and been enriched by the non-revenue sports mentioned - there's a lot of emotional attachment, as there should be. If men's (but not women's) lacrosse was added, baseball and men's golf would probably have to be dropped for Title IX purposes.

For baseball, softball and swimming, if UND gets in the Big Sky, conference affiliations would need to found for these sports. UND has been able to perform well at the DII level in baseball, tennis, and swimming (won't mention softball and golf), but geography, weather, and facilities all conspire against us at the DI level. If lower level southern conferences like the Sunbelt and Atlantic Sun often have better programs in these sports than Big Ten schools, what chance does UND have to be competitive? UND should put their resources into a program where the recruits would be excited to come (by the facilties, the fan support, and UND's academic offerings) and where no more capital would need to be spent (i.e. unlike baseball/softball). Lacrosse seems like a perfect opportunity waiting to happen.

[dakotadan]

Even if UND decides to stay DII and not add any more sports, I still wouldn't mind much if baseball and softball were still dropped and those resources put towards teams like women's hockey, soccer or even swimming and diving.

[nodakvindy]

I'd say getting 50 out of state walkons is a extremely unlikely. And if that is the case for having the sport, then you have to apply that to swimming, which has a large team as well.

I also think that even 1500 is a pretty optimistic attendance figure, especially at $10 a head. The University of Maryland is one of the top programs in the NCAA based in the most lax-hungry areas of the country and they average about 1800 a game with ticket prices of $5 for adults and $3 for kids. I would wager that $10 would be the highest priced NCAA regular season ticket.

You simply can't transfer this area's support of hockey to other sports. Even support of women's backetball has taken a long time to develop to what it is now. Starting lacrosse from scratch would be a HUGE risk. You have a sport with no local interest, no local athletes, and at least to start - a high likelihood of several losing seasons. That is not a recipe for success.

I like lacrosse, it's an exciting sport to watch. I just don't think it's a realistic or practical fit for UND right now or in the near future.

[JESUS,family,rutgers]

Hello hockey10,

The New Jersey Pride used to play their games at Montclair State University's Yogi Berra Field,but they have moved to Rutgers. They will not be playing in the 42,000 seat Rutgers Stadium where the football team plays. The Pride will play at Yurcak Field where the RU guys and girls lacrosse and soccer teams play. It is just a couple minutes walk from the main stadium and seats about 5,000 plus they can sell standing room if needed. When you saw the NCAA National Championship, did you see it at the old or new Rutgers Stadium? The new one opened in the early 90's. What part of New Jersey do you live? I live in Manchester down at The Shore and started following the Sioux a couple years ago. A nice bunch of people.

GO SCARLET KNIGHTS!

GO FIGHTING SIOUX!

[hockey10]

I had no idea they transfered down to Rutgers, I have only been to 1 MLL game and that was when they played at Yogi Berra's stadium. When I went to the NCAA Championship it was maybe 3-4 years ago, so I would assume that would be the new Rutgers stadium. I just remember walking past lots and lots of fields (soccer etc.) before getting to the main stadium. It had a good attendence, the whole lower bowl was filled.

I actually live in New York, by West Point.

[star2city]

I'd say getting 50 out of state walkons is a extremely unlikely. And if that is the case for having the sport, then you have to apply that to swimming, which has a large team as well.

There are nearly twice as many women's lacrosse scholarships available than men's - there has got to be a big pent up demand for college lax opportunities for men, especially in the midwest and west. As far as the 50 walkon-s, that should be restated: 36 players with 1/3 scholarships and 14 or more walk-ons. The differences between lacrosse and baseball or lacrosse and swimming is that UND could almost immediately get admission to a power conference in lacrosse and actually have a potential for revenue. Baseball or swimming would not get into power conferences nor would they generate revenue.

I also think that even 1500 is a pretty optimistic attendance figure, especially at $10 a head.

Based on the poll on this site, if 10% of Sioux season ticket holders would buy season tickets for men's lax, that would be 600/game as a base. If the 55% fans attending hockey games would go at least one lax match / year, (conservatively 11,000 fans x 55%) that's 6000 one-game tickets / year. So 600 season tickets + (6000 one-game tickets / 6 games) = 1600 average attendance.

The University of Maryland is one of the top programs in the NCAA based in the most lax-hungry areas of the country and they average about 1800 a game with ticket prices of $5 for adults and $3 for kids. I would wager that $10 would be the highest priced NCAA regular season ticket.

Most other lacrosse locations have professional teams located nearby that compete for $'s and attention. In GF, after mid-March, there really is no spectator sports available and the weather is not often amenable to other outdoor activities compared to locations like Maryland. Supposedly, a minor league indoor football team is looking at locating in GF and playing in the spring. Which would create more interest: indoor football at the Ralph costing $15 or a Sioux Lax match at the Alerus costing $10? I think the average fan would be more interested in a Lax match, because of the Sioux label and Sioux tradition.

You simply can't transfer this area's support of hockey to other sports. Even support of women's backetball has taken a long time to develop to what it is now. Starting lacrosse from scratch would be a HUGE risk. You have a sport with no local interest, no local athletes, and at least to start - a high likelihood of several losing seasons. That is not a recipe for success.

I agree that a number of losing season would dampen interest, but attendance could be sustained because of tailgating, there is a lack of other springtime weekend evening events, it will have the Sioux label and people will initially like the novelty of it, and then grow to love it. Yes, it would be a risk. But I like the potential returns, especially compared with being destined to mediocrity in the DI sports of baseball, softball, tennis, and golf. At the DI level, putting money into those sports is much more irresponsible at UND, IMO.

I like lacrosse, it's an exciting sport to watch. I just don't think it's a realistic or practical fit for UND right now or in the near future.

[dlsiouxfan]

The only major roadblock out there is using the Alerus Center. They overcharge us for using the facility for football games and practices already. If we can somehow negotiate a better rate this could be a possibility and would also put are athletic budget back in the black.

[nodakvindy]

Calling the western lacrosse league a power conference is being extremely generous. They may have an autobid and have some big names in the overall NCAA landscape, but that league is closer in hockey terms to the CHA than the WCHA. The Lacrosse title is dominated by very few schools. A total of five have won since 1978. To think that UND has a chance to become a big player is pretty naive.

UND is better off following the Minnesota-Duluth model with women's hockey and getting some international players to help build the program and gain Olympic exposure. The Sweden-Russia hockey game this afternoon almost seemed like a commercial for UMD. Women's hockey can become a revenue generator. Start getting some wins over Minnesota, UMD and Wisconsin and the fans will show up.

[JESUS,family,rutgers]

Hey hockey10,

After having been to a lot of campuses on the East Coast,including Princeton and Duke, I still think Army has the nicest. Michie Stadium in the Fall is a great place to watch a football game. I have seen the outside of the hockey arena,but haven't made it up there for a game. Do you get to a lot of Army sports events?

I think the Pride moving to Rutgers is going to help with their crowds. When they played in northern New Jersey, they had competition from the Metrostars pro soccer team at The Meadowlands, minor league baseball teams in Newark,Montclair,and soon the new one who will play in the new baseball stadium at The Meadowlands, and the Mets and Yankees over in New York City. In central New Jersey during the Summer the only sports team is the Somerset Patriots baseball team. The new Athletic Director at Rutgers looks at pro sports teams,not as competition,but as a way to get more people to become familiar with RU and the stadiums and arenas. From what I understand,there has been some preliminary talk of a shared RU/minor league baseball team stadium. If the Pride really start to take off,they can always move right over to the main stadium. Their home opener is May 20 and here is their website----My Webpage

[hockey10]

Do you get to a lot of Army sports events?

I used to work at the football and hockey games when I was in High School as a ticket taker. I have been to a lot of sporting events on the West Point campus. Football is by far the most entertaining game to go to. Hockey is always fun, and cheap to watch. Their lacrosse team continues to get better and better each year, and the attendence keeps going up due to that fact. I do agree with you their campus is a really nice campus, the stone buildings are a great sight, and you can't beat being right on the Hudson.

Have you been to Michie recently? They just finished a new press box, and athletic center, made the stadium look really impressive.

[The Sicatoka]

Let me state I believe there is a very specific set of circumstances that would have to occur before lacrosse would make sense at UND. Foremost would be UND going DI and gaining access to a conference for FB and BB that does not require baseball and golf (and others for that list might be softball and tennis). UND would be far from well positioned (climate, facilities) to be successful in those sports in DI.

There seems to be a void in the sport entertainment market in Grand Forks as evidenced by the open dates at Alerus Center from late March to May. I believe lacrosse could be good both for UND and the city of GF (Alerus Center) by filling that void if an agreement on usage could be reached. ("dlsiouxfan" raises that key point which is a real concern.)

A legitimate goal for attendance would be "top 10" on the following list. The reach goal would be to have attendance comparable to M/W basketball at UND. For comparision, the only spectator sport this notion would advocate dropping would be baseball which averaged 261 over 9 home games, 2347 total, in 2004.

As of Wed, Apr 20, 2005 (roughly mid-season) here was DI home average lacrosse attendance:

Rank Avg. (games)

1. 6526 Navy (5)

2. 5096 Syracuse (6)

3. 4024 Princeton (4)

4. 3577 Johns Hopkins (5)

5. 2948 Maryland (5)

6. 1770 Towson (4)

7. 1743 Hobart (6)

8. 1606 North Carolina (5)

9. 1535 Virginia (8)

10. 1529 Duke (9)

11. 1253 Georgetown (2)

12. 1107 Stony Brook (5)

13. 1075 Notre Dame (3)

As far as competitiveness, I'd say make our friends to the east both 'happy' and accurate, finally: Load up half the team with 25-year-old Canadians to get some early success and momentum in the program.

[Cratter]

The only major roadblock out there is using the Alerus Center. They overcharge us for using the facility for football games and practices already. If we can somehow negotiate a better rate this could be a possibility and would also put are athletic budget back in the black.

Even more reason to put a bubble over memorial. You could take the visiting bleachers down expand the field to conform to NCAA lacrosse standards with "free" rent. Students could walk to the games, free of charge and without having to pick up tickets in advance like at the Alerus for football. Then in the off time it could be used as a practice facility for all sports.

[The Sicatoka]

Even more reason to put a bubble over memorial. You could take the visiting bleachers down expand the field to conform to NCAA lacrosse standards with "free" rent. Students could walk to the games, free of charge and without having to pick up tickets in advance like at the Alerus for football. Then in the off time it could be used as a practice facility for all sports.

I like it!

The only not-so-positive would be televising games:

The Al would be easier if CSTV or ESPN-U came a-callin'.

[Sioux_Hab-it]

As far as competitiveness, I'd say make our friends to the east both 'happy' and accurate, finally: Load up half the team with 25-year-old Canadians to get some early success and momentum in the program.

Oh how I wish the Sioux had a Lacrosse team in the seventies and I maybe could have been one of those overage Canadians. My poor skating wasn't going to take me any further in hockey so I made the switch and had a decent junior Lacrosse career with Cornwall.

[The Sicatoka]

For openers, let me go back to the framework that my thoughts on this exist within:

... I believe there is a very specific set of circumstances that would have to occur before lacrosse would make sense at UND. Foremost would be UND going DI and gaining access to a conference for FB and BB that does not require baseball and golf (and others for that list might be softball and tennis). UND would be far from well positioned (climate, facilities) to be successful in those sports (baseball, golf) in DI.

Someone brought out the issue of travel expenses. I believe that would be not the show-stopping issue we expect. Looking at this years baseball and mens golf schedules, and doing (admittedly very) rough calculations, I see:

- baseball traveling over 10000 miles and having to spend about 17 overnights on the road

- mens golf traveling over 3000 miles and having to spend about 7 overnights on the road

For this (again, very rough) estimate lets figure baseball travels a party of 30 and golf travels a party of 8. That would mean about 300000 "body-miles" (bodies * miles) traveled and 510 "body-nights" (bodies * nights) in hotels. For golf it'd be 21000 body-miles and 56 body-nights, for two-sport grand totals of 320000 body-miles and 570 body-nights (after some rounding).

Assuming a mens lacrosse schedule that would look like DU's with five long road weekends (one to NY/MA, one each to MD, NC, VA, and conference to OH/IN) and a "road" game at Air Force, travel would look like:

- 15000 miles and 9 nights on the road.

Assuming a "hockey-sized" travel party of 30 (like baseball) that's 450000 body-miles and just 270 body-nights. Yes, that's 50% more "body"- or "team"-miles traveled, but it's less than half of the overnights (hotels, meals) costs. One more note here: This comparison is DI lacrosse travel to DII baseball/golf travel. If UND went DI (see "framework" above), baseball and golf travel costs would surely swell.

I'd venture to say that travel "before" and "after" travel costs would come out roughly equal.

The differences would be the increased opportunities for gate revenues and championships.

[dakotadan]

The differences would be the increased opportunities for gate revenues and championships.

Also, with lacrosse we would be bringing in more "notable" schools, both in conference and out of conference.

I like the idea of Lacrosse but admitt I would have a problem if UND began going ahead with this without making sure that existing sports like women's hockey, soccer, and swimming and diving were not fully funded. While our S&D teams are funded better than most DII teams, they are far from fully funded. Imagine what they could have been doing with a full alotment of schollies. Also, I like where our soccer field is located and think it could be turned into a neat little field but it needs some basics such as score board, permanent bathroom/concession building, etc.

[The Sicatoka]

Like I've said, there are a lot of "ifs" that go with my ponderings.

Then again, mentioning "ifs", couldn't soccer play in this guy's notion if it came to pass?

Even more reason to put a bubble over memorial. You could take the visiting bleachers down expand the field to conform to NCAA lacrosse standards with "free" rent. Students could walk to the games, free of charge and without having to pick up tickets in advance like at the Alerus for football. Then in the off time it could be used as a practice facility for all sports.

If you could play lax in it, and put in field turf, you could get soccer out of the November wind and cold.

[The Sicatoka]

While our S&D teams are funded better than most DII teams, they are far from fully funded.

I worry that our powerful DII S&D teams would be chum in the water in DI.

[star2city]

Calling the western lacrosse league a power conference is being extremely generous. They may have an autobid and have some big names in the overall NCAA landscape, but that league is closer in hockey terms to the CHA than the WCHA.

The CHA has one 'name' school (AFA), while the Great West has three notable names and one existing rival (Denver). Out of 57 lacrosse teams, Denver is rated #22, Ohio State is #21, and N Dame # 12 and Notre Dame has actually reached the semifinals recently. The Great West Lacrosse League should more properly be compared to the ECAC rather the the CHA, based on the academic reputations and their on-field performances.

The Lacrosse title is dominated by very few schools. A total of five have won since 1978.

And DI basketball has recently been dominated by very few schools: Connecticut, North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, Indiana, Syracuse, Arizona, UCLA, - that is out of 300+ schools.

To think that UND has a chance to become a big player is pretty naive.

UND is not likely to dethrone North Carolina, Princeton, Virginia, Syracuse, or Johns Hopkins, but UND would have the potential to have a decent and entertaining program. (Wasn't the same said about UND hockey in the 1940's?)

Consider that the seating capacity of the Alerus is perfect for Lacrosse - a little noise reverberating from a few thousand fans would instantly give UND quite a reputation as a raucous and desirable location for recruits from the west, midwest and Canada to play at. No other school has such a venue that is practically ready-made for lacrosse. The only other domed stadium in the sport, the Carrier Dome is way too big to offer as much fan energy.

UND is better off following the Minnesota-Duluth model with women's hockey and getting some international players to help build the program and gain Olympic exposure. The Sweden-Russia hockey game this afternoon almost seemed like a commercial for UMD. Women's hockey can become a revenue generator. Start getting some wins over Minnesota, UMD and Wisconsin and the fans will show up.

Agree that crowds for women's hockey can increase, but it also has to compete with the men's teams, high school teams, and somewhat with basketball teams for fans. Winter offers too many spectator choices. UND fans need a springtime choice - for weekend evenings.

[star2city]

Saturday, was frustrated as any Sioux fan about the "historic" seven overtime Lax game infringing upon the Sioux telecast.

But, sometimes there's opportunity purposedly placed in the front of our face and, out of frustration, we reject it instead of wondering why this is happening. It's like a metaphysical principle.

On that note, thought an old thread needed to be resurrected.

[Goon]

Saturday, was frustrated as any Sioux fan about the "historic" seven overtime Lax game infringing upon the Sioux telecast.

But, sometimes there's opportunity purposedly placed in the front of our face and, out of frustration, we reject it instead of wondering why this is happening. It's like a metaphysical principle.

On that note, thought an old thread needed to be resurrected.

metaphysical ---- Show Spelled Pronunciation [met-uh-fiz-i-kuhl] Show IPA

[YaneA]

Unfortunately, the Virginia-Maryland lacrosse game presented itself in the trappings of a major annoyance to those of us tuning in to see the Sioux-Wildcats regional. Not a great introduction to the sport for those of us still in the Dark Ages concerning it. Can we rise above that first disastrous impression? Probably.

[sagard]

Lacrosse is growing and I don't know if it can be stopped. My son started playing and the parent interest/turnout beat Mites hockey played in the same facility at least three to one.

It has a lot going for it:

1. It's fun to play. Very similar to hockey, but no learning to skate requirements.

2. It's cheap.

3. Can be played indoors and outdoors.

4. Parent's don't know what is going on, so they don't harp on the kids.

In another 10 years there will be plenty of talent in the Midwest to choose from.

[DAR]

After missing the whole first period of the Sioux game because of a stupid Lacrosse game I will never be a fan.

[The Sicatoka]

After missing the whole first period of the Sioux game because of a stupid Lacrosse game I will never be a fan.

... until a UND team coached by Rylan Kaip is in the Lax Final Four.

And for the record:

I have Midco cable and with it I have ESPN2 and ESPN2HD.

Lax was on ESPN2HD but when I jumped down to just ESPN2 there was UND/UNH.

Anybody else try that?