The Dakota Student gets it exactly right

[Csonked Out]

82 is exactly right about the old arena. When the new arena was built and the students didn't pay for it in fee's we lost a lot of power in the arena because we now have no financial risk with it, if a disgruntled student doesn't wanna go to a game they can just sell the ticket to the public and make more money off of it, just the way business works. Am i disgruntled with it yes, but i understand why it is the way it is. When you build a $100 million arena it takes a lot more money to run every year, but it still does seem to me that there is a severe lack of communication between the students and the public. We as students feel disgruntled(some of us anyway), because all we have been hearing is that we're drunk, obnoxious, and have no respect for our peers around us. And the public feels like we're spoiled because we get to see the games for so cheap. The new arena may not be as crazy as the old arena but it has attracted the type of talent that the hockey team hasn't seen in awhile(when was the last time the team had 6+ first round draft picks on the team in the same year?), and that has to be acknowledged. At the same time the students wouldn't be nearly as disgruntled if we were treated with have been told these rule changes and been treated with some respect. The more aggresively a group of people is attacked, the more defensive they get as is the situation here, and i believe that is the root of the problem mostly. When the community comes on here and says that we're drunk, obnoxious, and immature fo course we'll get defensive and throw it back at you, most people would(how would you react if someone told that to you time after time?). Now if there would of been a meeting with the students and the community to brainstorm on ideas to improve it that would be a start.

For example, in Wisconsin the fans and students all cheer together, most of the time the fans are the ones that start the cheers and the students follow, the community came together as one, and its a great time there, so why not try something that has proven to work. Have a forum that is commited to creatin new cheers that EVERYEONE can participate in and feel good about, after all that is what duke does. Its time to end the fighting and come together as a community and embrace the students as well as have the students embrace the community. Because until actual solutions are trying to be thought of instead of just fighting, the atmosphere wont change.

[Fedorov]

I am embarrassed to even be considered part of the

[dropTHEgloves]

All I know is that when I am 40 and the telephone rings from the alumni association, I will probably think back to my days as a student and remember how disrespected we as students were. Not only by the people at the Ralph but the whole community of Grand Forks. We are trying to come up with solutions but it seems that no one really wants to work with us but rather dictate. We all want the same thing which is to win so instead of always immediately criticizing, look at this from a different perspetive other than your own . I love UND but hate all the baggage that comes from people not willing to come to compromise.

[PCM]

I can

[Csonked Out]

PCM it's not that we're not allowed to do it, but it's the way we're told. It's comments like yours that completely shut out student attempts at compromise. We realize we're not allowed to do it, as you read in my earlier post my compromise dealt with cheers and respect, not standing and swearing. It's somewhere to start.

[Sioux-cia]

[CoteauRinkRat]

Sorry, but I've never understood how "compromise" applies to this situation.

Whether or not students participate in mass, profane cheering isn't a matter for compromise. They shouldn't do it.

Period.

Whether or not students stand the entire game and block the view of people who paid to see the game isn't a matter for compromise. They shouldn't do it.

Period.

Why do students believe that they are entitled to something when all that's being asked is that they engage in the minimal standards of acceptable public behavior? Why should anyone expect to get something in return for that?

The "general public" isn't doing the same thing as the students. That's the difference. It has nothing do with students being unfairly persecuted.

I agree. I would like to add that although I pay X amount of dollars for my seats and X amount of dollars to join the Fighting Sioux Club, and I pay X amount of taxes to the state which helps fund Higher Ed in this state, that does not entitle me to much more than my seats at the Ralph. Also, paying tuition and money for their seats, the students aren't entitled to anything but a seat at the game. There are people on both sides of this debate who think the more they pay, the more they think they run the REA.

[Diggler]

Alot of students are saying you're right, we'll sit down and not swear. Could you do A and B? The problem from the students perspective is that no one listens to A and B. From their perspective, students admit they are/were wrong and ask for some help but get none. I'm sure this will be dismissed by many, but it is the truth in many students minds. Until this is solved, all the problems won't be solved. Just like until some students get it through their thick skulls that the world doesn't revolve around them, all the problems won't be solved.

When I say the world isn't fair and students have to realize they can't get everything they want exactly how they want, people agree. When I say the general public needs to realize they can't get everything they want exactly how they want, people say students are being idiots and should have common courtesy. Well no crap, but once again this is the real world, it never works exactly the way it's supposed to or should. Both sides have to work together to solve the problems, not just students listening to do what they are told.

BTW, the people who pay more for their tickets do have more say at REA. That's just common knowledge. Does anyone really think that if suite holders weren't complaining, anything would be done? Or does anyone think that the students wouldn't have already been moved to behind the nets if the people who pay the most money didn't sit there now?

[engelbunny]

Wow! What is with all the whining? A little muse on student's drinking: (I'm talking about drinking of the more casual variety, not chronic alcoholism, so don't soap box me.)

Yes, drinking is a part of the college life. Some students drink too much at times. Some of those students also go to hockey games, but not all the students that attend the games are drunk. And from my point of view, I could really care less if they were. Whoop-dee-do. Drink all you want, as long as you walk back home. I'll have a beer at the games, but can't get liquored up because I have to drive. If I didn't, I might. Who cares?

It is not the drunk part that is annoying. Many people who get drunk are good natured and funny. But then again, many get belligerent or obnoxious. That is where the problem comes in. Nobody likes anyone who is obnoxious, whether they are drunk or not. The constant standing came across as obnoxious and belligerent. The fact that some of those students were also drunk, while inconsequential to the crux of the matter, just adds more fuel to the fire. Last week-end the students sat and were widely commended on this board. I don't recall anyone even bringing up anything about alcohol consumption. All of the student's could have been completely wasted, and most people wouldn't have noticed, because they were not being obnoxious or belligerent.

Now, a little about standing, which I have always maintained is the only real problem. It would be great if the arena had a different lower bowl design that could accomodate a large block of people standing all the time without blocking anyone else's view. But it simply doesn't. There is no place in the lower bowl where standing won't block someone's view, because the suites ring the entire arena. If the first row of seats at ice level were 15 feet from the playing surface (like a basketball court), it would be less of a problem. But they aren't. So quit crying about it. The arena is what it is, and what it is - is pretty freaking nice. I bet most college hockey teams would love to have our "problems".

While everyone agrees that the students are essential to the college game experience, nobody is going to show much sympathy if you keep making demands and calling for everyone else to compromise so that you can continue a behavior which is not necessary, and so then seems; well, obnoxious (drunk or not).

[Fedorov]

Sorry, but I've never understood how "compromise" applies to this situation.

This is a perfect example of why nothing is resolved. Your idea of the "situation" does not include several of the complaints from students. You are only looking at what bothers you.

[Fetch]

PCM I agree 100%

How & what is there to compromise ?

Profanity is not Cool or going to be allowed

Standing & blocking someones view is totally wrong & should not be allowed

If anyone is intoxicated to a point of bothering those around you, they should be warned once & then removed

Unless you can get the REA to reconstruct the arena, to make standing OK & not take seats away from people who already have them. It is not a realistic complaint

I'm getting really tired of having to stand up & let people in & out of my row, while the puck is in play

Need more & better ushers / security & trust me this is where this is headed

"You can't solve problems for people who do not want their problems solved"

[iramurphy]

All I know is that when I am 40 and the telephone rings from the alumni association, I will probably think back to my days as a student and remember how disrespected we as students were. Not only by the people at the Ralph but the whole community of Grand Forks. We are trying to come up with solutions but it seems that no one really wants to work with us but rather dictate. We all want the same thing which is to win so instead of always immediately criticizing, look at this from a different perspetive other than your own . I love UND but hate all the baggage that comes from people not willing to come to compromise.

You are not "disrespected" by The REA, the Grand Forks Community, the Athletic Department nor teh adult fans anymore than all of the students are drunk and obnoxious. Some people have been disrespectful. Most are not. Some students have been drunk and obnoxious. Most are not. You don't need to be disrespectful to other fans and students though. Standing the entire hockey game especially just to stand is annoying to other students and fans. You are in the way. I am not talking about when you need to yell at the ref or respond to the action on the ice.

I, at times, was a bit obnoxious myself as a student but seldom drunk at the athletic events. We were obnoxious to the fans from the AC because they were so obnoxious. With that exception, we weren't disrespectful to UND fans and we got along well with the UND police and the arena, stadium and Hyslop staff. It isn't that difficult. Use you brain. We figured out how to have the beverage of our choice at the games. It is more difficult today because of the Muslim terrorist problem and the searches but with a bit of thought and keeping the proverbial low profile there are tougher things in life than figuring out how to have a beer at a game.

You are UND students. In response to an earlier comments about students being spoiled, you should be. Just like children in our families, the students at UND are part of our alumni family and need to be spoiled a bit so the experience is a great one. Whether that be attending hockey games, FB games, the pow wow, having a beer or soda with Kracker and the missus at the NA center or on campus, you should know how to act. That doesn't include screaming the "F" word or other vulgar language. It doesn't include racial slurs. Don't wear you UND logo stuff when you go to Krackers for dinner. Show respect for others feelings and you don't have these issues.

This has been pretty entertaining for an old guy so keep it up. By the way the poster who pointed out the coordinated cheers by Wisconsin fans is right. Listening to them is a blast. I have always enjoyed playing Wisconsin because their fans and their band are so entertaining.

Lastly, when the "phone rings when you are 40", and the Alumni asks, write the check, that is part of being part of the UND Fighting Sioux family..

[frnkdrcmn]

All I know is that a lively crowd and student section is a BIG part of the UND game experience. I'm an old fart and I'm perfectly willing to stand for much of the game but I know others aren't so put the students at the end and form a fan shape with their seats to the top of the arena so no one is blocked if they have to, or do it on the sides if the big contributors aren't willing to budge. Do something! It can't be rocket science to make things happen. I love the intelligent organized cheers and the music. And I like having the students close to the action. Many around the country think of UND as the "DUKE" of college hockey and I'd like the administration do as much as possible to make the REA the most difficult road game in the country.

I live out east and believe me that the perception here is that North Dakota is the toughest place to play period. The Fighting Sioux are are spoken of with the greatest respect and have an awe and mystique about them that can't be bought. The sports fans at Ohio State would love to have the Sioux program and reputation. My concern is that with the new arena that the place has become 'soft' because the school hasn't figured out yet how to use it to it's best advantage. Changes and compromise must be made for the sake of the program.

$$ is critical to winning, no doubt, but so is a great atmosphere.

[BIGSIOUX]

This is a perfect example of why nothing is resolved. Your idea of the "situation" does not include several of the complaints from students. You are only looking at what bothers you.

ditto to both of your post Federov,

a psychologist or sociologist would easily compare this debate to the current one going on in the sioux name forum.

looks familiar doesn't it?

General Public wants students to sit and not swear or drink because it is not okay for them.

Native americans want the school to change name because they feel it is not okay for them.

General public says Rah rah to one point, and says no way to the later?

Im a supporter of the name, but sometimes everyone needs to take a listen to what exactly is coming outta there mouth and fingers, and try to be open and communicate without a negative attitude. People have been called jerks, idiots, and immature over the course of this thread by some of the same people who claim only the name changers result to calling names.

possibly the most juvenile topic of discussion in a college setting i have seen.

[Diggler]

You're a jerk, BIGSIOUX.

[beersong]

It seems like you guys have been fighting on this for years. We had these same problems at tUMD. Without asking anyone, they moved our student section from the redline to the corner. We could stand the whole game and they could sell our redline seats for a premium price. It really has worked out great for everyone. Sounds like your situation may be a little more complex though.

I know that standing vs. sitting is an issue that will be debated for all time but I really do believe that standing adds to atmosphere because people tend to be louder when standing. When choirs sing...they stand. When people speak in public...they stand. Voices project better when standing. - "it's science" © Ron Burgandy. When people sit, they get lazy and become spectators and not participants. This is fine, except for when you're in the student section and are looked upon to lead the cheering.

Just my $0.07.

[siouxper-duper]

Here is an idea...first, let me state I take no side in this argument Anyway, I know nothing beats the atmosphere of REA, but anyone can choose to sit at home and watch most games on TV and yell and stand and drink and swear as much as they want, or sit and watch and be undisturbed, whichever you prefer...for FREE! It would save a lot of grief for both sides!

[Smoggy]

I know that standing vs. sitting is an issue that will be debated for all time but I really do believe that standing adds to atmosphere because people tend to be louder when standing. When choirs sing...they stand. When people speak in public...they stand. Voices project better when standing. - "it's science"

[Diggler]

Question unrelated to my post:

Did the university ever reduce student fees once the old Ralph was payed for?

This is a rhetorical question, right? You went to school here, you know the answer.

[Smoggy]

This is a rhetorical question, right? You went to school here, you know the answer.

Well I remember them raising it on me for some wellness facility that wasn't going to be built within 3 years of my college career ending. Is it done yet?

[LFSPRO]

We sit next to the students in section 107 and enjoy watching Diggler do his thing every game. The energy the students bring to the arena must not be lost. I thought they did a great job last weekend.

The problems being discussed are not new and hopefully a solution can be found so that everyone can enjoy our great hockey program.

I feel that swearing is a sign of ignorance and standing for the purpose of standing is rude.

Last season I politely asked a young man to sit down during regular puck play so my wife could see. He stated he was a UND student and

[PCM]

This is a perfect example of why nothing is resolved. Your idea of the "situation" does not include several of the complaints from students.

I've heard many complaints from the students. Some of them I agree with. Some of them I don't. But they have absolutely nothing to do with whether students should adhere to minimal standards of socially acceptable public behavior.

It's like me saying that I can't be expected to drive the speed limit on the Interstate until the highway department fixes all the bumps. Or what if I said that until the state pays me for driving the speed limit, I'm going to speed?

None of these things have anything to do with each other. The law is the law, regardless of whether the road is bumpy, the center lines need painting, the ruts are worn or the Highway patrolman is impolite when he gives me a speeding ticket. None of those problems are justification for my speeding.

The students simply use these "they don't listen to us" or "they don't treat us nicely" or "they don't give us any alternatives" excuses as rationalizations to continue doing somemthing they shouldn't be doing in the first place. That approach is never going to fly with me. Sorry.

You are only looking at what bothers you.

Not really. Being on the other side of the arena and in the press box, the standing problem never bothers me. But I've experienced it in other venues, so I know how those whose view is blocked feel. I'd be angry, too, if I were in their seats.

The profane cheering bothers me because it reflects poorly on UND and Grand Forks. And because I work for UND and live in Grand Forks, I am concerned about the image the university and the community projects to the outside world. The students, who claim that they are a major part of the community and are the reason the university exists, should care about it too. They'd be taken more seriously if they did.

Edited January 27, 2006 by PCM

[Diggler]

Sooooo, why are we still arguing about this? Seems to me like, as long as things stay the way they were last week, there isn't a problem.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree Diggler. I thought that the student section was great last week and hope they will continue this week. The entire crowd has room to improve in the areas of getting involved and organized (the non-students probably more than the students). Some of the music cues mentioned earlier by a student were great. I think that we should all be working on positive ideas like that rather than rehashing the same arguments. As someone else mentioned earlier, we should be working together to make the REA and UND the toughest place for opposing teams to play.

[Sioux-cia]

Ah, Dirty,always the voice of reason. Standing for the sake of standing, no. Swearing, no. Cheering, chants, signs, singing, all good.

Drink as much as you want but if you don't behave, face the consequences like a man, er, woman, uhm, drunk student.