UND's DI review committee

[IowaBison]

I don't think a move to DI would require doubling the athletic budget.

3 million dollars a year would be enough to provide the opportunity for success.

[RD17]

3 million dollars a year would be enough to provide the opportunity for success.

Yes... Buning has said that a $2.5 to $3 million increase is what it would take to be successful.

Heck, if UND wanted to do it on the cheap like SDSU and UNC it could keep the existing budget and just reallocate. But if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right.

[IowaBison]

Pretty sure SDSU's budget is up more than $1.5 million since making the move.

[tony]

For what purpose? Purely athletics, or a building project of some sort?

Uh, I don't think that fee increase has anything to do with athletics or DI. NDSU students would have had to vote to raise fees to support athletics and that hasn't happened as far as I know. There was some talk about raising the ConnectND fee to cover cost overruns, but I thought that got shot down. If NDSU's fee for ConnectND gets raised, I'd imagine that UND's will be getting bumped too.

At NDSU, I think the Activity Fee ($10/credit/semester) is the only one that gets used for athletics. A little more than 1/3 of that money raised by that fee is budgeted for athletics. I don't think that fee got raised.

NDSU student fees

[RD17]

Pretty sure SDSU's budget is up more than $1.5 million since making the move.

And it is still only $6.5 million for 20 (?) sports. Plus they are still under $1 million in total scholarship aid. Not a recipe for success.

[aff]

And it is still only $6.5 million for 20 (?) sports. Plus they are still under $1 million in total scholarship aid. Not a recipe for success.

SDSU and UNC both don't have two hockey programs taking most of their budget. If you took the hockey part out of UND's budget I'm betting they would be worse off then where SDSU and UNC are. SDSU and UNC weren't running a deficity in D-II.

[MplsBison]

Yes... Buning has said that a $2.5 to $3 million increase is what it would take to be successful.

Ok so a 60 million endowment.

[RD17]

SDSU and UNC both don't have two hockey programs taking most of their budget. If you took the hockey part out of UND's budget I'm betting they would be worse off then where SDSU and UNC are. SDSU and UNC weren't running a deficity in D-II.

It doesn't matter what SDSU and UNC did in D2 or how they compare to UND now... neither SDSU or UNC has (or will have) the financial ability to succeed in D-I, IMO. NDSU has the right idea on how to do all of this and they will have success, SDSU and UNC will not.

[aff]

It doesn't matter what SDSU and UNC did in D2 or how they compare to UND now... neither SDSU or UNC has (or will have) the financial ability to succeed in D-I, IMO. NDSU has the right idea on how to do all of this and they will have success, SDSU and UNC will not.

And UND is worse off then both of those schools were when they initially changed divisions. I take it you don't want UND to go D-I then.

[aff]

It doesn't matter what SDSU and UNC did in D2 or how they compare to UND now... neither SDSU or UNC has (or will have) the financial ability to succeed in D-I, IMO. NDSU has the right idea on how to do all of this and they will have success, SDSU and UNC will not.

I also don't know why some of you are so hard on SDSU, they have already committed to a game with the gophers, meaning that when they complete their transition they will be fully funded in football. Its probably going to take them longer, but I'm sure with those paydays in football, things are going to be competitive over the next 10 years.

UNC also has already lined up a conference affiliation, something that NDSU, who "has the right idea" has yet to accomplish.

[RD17]

And UND is worse off then both of those schools were when they initially changed divisions. I take it you don't want UND to go D-I then.

I also don't know why some of you are so hard on SDSU, they have already committed to a game with the gophers, meaning that when they complete their transition they will be fully funded in football. Its probably going to take them longer, but I'm sure with those paydays in football, things are going to be competitive over the next 10 years.

UNC also has already lined up a conference affiliation, something that NDSU, who "has the right idea" has yet to accomplish.

NDSU's lack of a conference is simply a matter of geography. You don't seriously believe that if UNC were in the Dakotas that it would be in a conference at this point?

I don't think anyone would confuse me for an NDSU apologist, but my point still stands on the differences between NDSU and SDSU/UNC. I think Gene Taylor has the right idea on how to do this and NDSU has the resources (at least so far) to carry out the plan. SDSU and UNC do not.

And if you honestly believe that UND now isn't in a better position than SDSU or UNC when they made the move, you are delusional.

[Charger]

Yes... Buning has said that a $2.5 to $3 million increase is what it would take to be successful.

Heck, if UND wanted to do it on the cheap like SDSU and UNC it could keep the existing budget and just reallocate. But if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right.

SDSU has increased their budget from $4.3 million while in D2 to over $6.5 million (last years numbers) and I assume it is higher this year, and it will be higher next year. South Dakota has also lowered out of state tuition starting next year. This will mean our scholarship dollars will go ever further. Education is also cheaper in SD, so although we do not use as much of our budget for scholarships as other schools we could still have just as many scholarships. Now UNC on the other hand only has a budget of S4.87 million and they are a year ahead of us. By the end of the transition we will have a large enough budget to be successful at the DI-AA level ($2.5-$3 million more by your estimates).

Does anyone exactly how much of the UND budget is used for hockey? You guys already have a $10 million dollar budget, but I'm guessing 1/3 to 1/2 of that goes towards mens and womens hockey.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm amazed at how much non-UND interest there is in UND's budget.

And I still would like to see a paper in the region get all of the data and put it out there (at least for the public universities). Let's see how these budgets are done.

[Cratter]

NDSU's lack of a conference is simply a matter of geography. You don't seriously believe that if UNC were in the Dakotas that it would be in a conference at this point?

I don't think anyone would confuse me for an NDSU apologist, but my point still stands on the differences between NDSU and SDSU/UNC. I think Gene Taylor has the right idea on how to do this and NDSU has the resources (at least so far) to carry out the plan. SDSU and UNC do not.

And if you honestly believe that UND now isn't in a better position than SDSU or UNC when they made the move, you are delusional.

Ditto.

[aff]

NDSU's lack of a conference is simply a matter of geography. You don't seriously believe that if UNC were in the Dakotas that it would be in a conference at this point?

I don't think anyone would confuse me for an NDSU apologist, but my point still stands on the differences between NDSU and SDSU/UNC. I think Gene Taylor has the right idea on how to do this and NDSU has the resources (at least so far) to carry out the plan. SDSU and UNC do not.

And if you honestly believe that UND now isn't in a better position than SDSU or UNC when they made the move, you are delusional.

I'm delusional huh? So explain to me why SDSU and UNC are both half way through their D-I transition, and UND isn't going D-I? The '"wisdom" of your president? You're waiting for a conference? You guys are delusional. You're school doesn't have the resources to be D-I, so you get fed these lines to keep you on the hook, until one day, everyone has forgotten about the old NCC, and you're still D-II.

I hate to be harsh, but right now you're a D-II school with a deficit, and you're talking about how much more prepared you are than two schools that have already went D-I. I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But I know, I'm delusional for not seeing how superior a school that is running a deficit in D-II is to two schools that have upped thier athletic budgets by a couple million dollars and continue to do so. I can't believe how dumb I am.

Simple logic defies your argument. If UND was better off then SDSU, they would have went D-I with NDSU. They didn't. There's no reason for that other than UND not being as prepared as those schools. Talk all you want about facilities, if you can't give athletes scholarships to play in them, their worthless to you as a D-I school.

[star2city]

Simple logic defies your argument. If UND was better off then SDSU, they would have went D-I with NDSU. They didn't. There's no reason for that other than UND not being as prepared as those schools. Talk all you want about facilities, if you can't give athletes scholarships to play in them, their worthless to you as a D-I school.

Aff (a.k.a. 89rabbit):

Your SDSU Jacks have like 42 scholarships for DIAA football, when the limit is 63. Does that mean that since SDSU can't give out its full compliment of scholarships, that it is worthless as a D-I school? That seems to be your argument.

If 100 DI athletic directors were polled about which former NCC school or UND is most prepared to go DI, the resounding answer would be UND, not only because of nearly 1/4 of a billion $'s worth of facilities but because it annually averages nearly 400,000 paying fans a year since the Ralph and the Alerus were built. Those type of facts put UND head and shoulders above any other former NCC school. If UND has an achilles heal (at present), it is its lack of an athletic endowment. But guess what, SDSU doesn't have an endowment worth speaking of and neither does NDSU.

If UND is so incapable of making a move to DI, why are you and so many Bison fans so infatuated with a UND DI prospect? (a) concerned that athletes will go to UND rather than SDSU? (b) in denial that a DII school can obtain DI conference membership?

[GeauxSioux]

I'm amazed at how much non-UND interest there is in UND's budget.

And I still would like to see a paper in the region get all of the data and put it out there (at least for the public universities). Let's see how these budgets are done.

This amazes me too. I always hear and read that UND is running huge deficits and with all that red ink UND cannot afford Division I. Then I read the information from last year and it doesn't jive.

Revenue Expenses

UND $10,021,643 $ 9,958,728

NDSU $ 7,668,848 $ 7,668,848

SDSU $ 6,280,833 $ 6,547,381

UNC $ 4,865,324 $ 4,865,324

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp

I don't pretend to know how each school prepares or reports from their athletic department, but I'm sure there are a number of ways of doing it. Looking at the numbers above it would appear that SDSU is the school that can't afford to be in Division I.

I am hopeful with new blood both in the AD and at REA that perhaps they can work together to maximize the facilities for more $$$.

[aff]

Aff (a.k.a. 89rabbit):

Your SDSU Jacks have like 42 scholarships for DIAA football, when the limit is 63. Does that mean that since SDSU can't give out its full compliment of scholarships, that it is worthless as a D-I school? That seems to be your argument.

If 100 DI athletic directors were polled about which former NCC school or UND is most prepared to go DI, the resounding answer would be UND, not only because of nearly 1/4 of a billion $'s worth of facilities but because it annually averages nearly 400,000 paying fans a year since the Ralph and the Alerus were built. Those type of facts put UND head and shoulders above any other former NCC school. If UND has an achilles heal (at present), it is its lack of an athletic endowment. But guess what, SDSU doesn't have an endowment worth speaking of and neither does NDSU.

If UND is so incapable of making a move to DI, why are you and so many Bison fans so infatuated with a UND DI prospect? (a) concerned that athletes will go to UND rather than SDSU? (b) in denial that a DII school can obtain DI conference membership?

[aff]

This amazes me too. I always hear and read that UND is running huge deficits and with all that red ink UND cannot afford Division I. Then I read the information from last year and it doesn't jive.

Revenue Expenses

UND $10,021,643 $ 9,958,728

NDSU $ 7,668,848 $ 7,668,848

SDSU $ 6,280,833 $ 6,547,381

UNC $ 4,865,324 $ 4,865,324

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp

I don't pretend to know how each school prepares or reports from their athletic department, but I'm sure there are a number of ways of doing it. Looking at the numbers above it would appear that SDSU is the school that can't afford to be in Division I.

I am hopeful with new blood both in the AD and at REA that perhaps they can work together to maximize the facilities for more $$$.

yeah, no possibility of that being manipulated. I mean UNC should be congratulated for spending the EXACT amount of money that came in this year. NDSU too, thats a real feat.

[MplsBison]

I was going to say that too.

What are the odds of spending exactly what you brought in?

Does that site also claim that USD has a budget surplus even though the athletic department had to cut sports because they were in the red?

[UND Fan]

[Bison Dan]

Kupchella on WDAY sports - sounded like he would only go DI for individual sports. Not sure what conference would accept only fb & bb and nothing else?

[star2city]

You can talk all you want about the ralph, the hockey program, what a theoretical poll of coaches would show (??) etc., but you never answered my question. If UND is just as capable as SDSU and UNC, then why didn't they go at the same time. It makes all the sense in the world to move with your rival. The logic is so simple, yet everyone on this board wants to attack me like that will make it untrue.

Reasons UND didn't move at the same time as NDSU/SDSU

1. DI rules have changed since NDSU/SDSU moved up. UC-Davis' appealed the 13 year rule for getting into the Big Dance and the rule was changed to five years if in an autobid conference (but remains 13 years without a conference). That was a huge rule change and is often forgotten.

2. No conference was available and with the 13 year rule, there wouldn't have been a chance of getting in a conference for at least 10 years - NDSU/SDSU blindly took the plunge with this issue.

3. Their DI move occurred whan Grand Forks was still in a flood recovery mode - a major new tax for local resident for a dike assessment was upcoming. The local businesses were in no mood for supporting UND to move up. GF has a new confidence now that it understandably didn't have four years ago.

4. The REA was just coming on line and there was too much uncertainty in determining how much the REA would contribute to UND athletics. Would a sold-out REA continue for hockey or would average attendance would drop back down to 6000? In other words, there was too much uncertainty regarding ticket revenue.

5. UND was scheduled to host the 2005 DII men's basketball championships and held out hope that it would be a future host of the DII football and women't basketball championships. Local civic organizations saw DII as an way to attract visitors. The 2005 basketball tournament did not meet expectations (no local teams didn't help) and it has become all too clear that DII would not support a DII championship game at the Alerus.

6. The whole nickname issue makes the next few years an ideal time to move up.

IMO, those are pretty compelling arguments for why UND needed to act independently of NDSU/SDSU and in UND's best interest. Unfortunately, too many NDSU/SDSU fans seem to think that UND should act in the best interest of NDSU/SDSU.

Please don't pretend to know who I am. I'm not 89rabbit, I don't post on any message board except this one, and here only occasionally. I guess if it makes you feel better to brand me as some other schools fanatic thats your buisness, but know that it isn't true.

Funny, most of your posts are SDSU related or SDSU defensive, 89rabbit has initials of "aff", and 89rabbit seems active on every board but this one. Sorry for the mistake, apparently jumped to a conclusion based on too few coincidences.

[rabidrabbit]

Reasons UND didn't move at the same time as NDSU/SDSU

1. DI rules have changed since NDSU/SDSU moved up. UC-Davis' appealed the 13 year rule for getting into the Big Dance and the rule was changed to five years if in an autobid conference (but remains 13 years without a conference). That was a huge rule change and is often forgotten.

2. No conference was available and with the 13 year rule, there wouldn't have been a chance of getting in a conference for at least 10 years - NDSU/SDSU blindly took the plunge with this issue.

3. Their DI move occurred whan Grand Forks was still in a flood recovery mode - a major new tax for local resident for a dike assessment was upcoming. The local businesses were in no mood for supporting UND to move up. GF has a new confidence now that it understandably didn't have four years ago.

4. The REA was just coming on line and there was too much uncertainty in determining how much the REA would contribute to UND athletics. Would a sold-out REA continue for hockey or would average attendance would drop back down to 6000? In other words, there was too much uncertainty regarding ticket revenue.

5. UND was scheduled to host the 2005 DII men's basketball championships and held out hope that it would be a future host of the DII football and women't basketball championships. Local civic organizations saw DII as an way to attract visitors. The 2005 basketball tournament did not meet expectations (no local teams didn't help) and it has become all too clear that DII would not support a DII championship game at the Alerus.

6. The whole nickname issue makes the next few years an ideal time to move up.

IMO, those are pretty compelling arguments for why UND needed to act independently of NDSU/SDSU and in UND's best interest. Unfortunately, too many NDSU/SDSU fans seem to think that UND should act in the best interest of NDSU/SDSU.

Funny, most of your posts are SDSU related or SDSU defensive, 89rabbit has initials of "aff", and 89rabbit seems active on every board but this one. Sorry for the mistake, apparently jumped to a conclusion based on too few coincidences.

Star - This is good info on why didn't move. Thanks for sharing. This non-89 Rabbit wishes the Sioux the best in making your decision. NCC with UND in it, will continue to be one of the top D-2 conferences. Unfortunately the D-2 world is evolving, and not in a positive manner. Enjoyed participating against you in the NCC, and hope that we'll be playing you again at the D-1 level in the near future. But if you choose to remain in the NCC, you help the NCC.

[aff]

Reasons UND didn't move at the same time as NDSU/SDSU

1. DI rules have changed since NDSU/SDSU moved up. UC-Davis' appealed the 13 year rule for getting into the Big Dance and the rule was changed to five years if in an autobid conference (but remains 13 years without a conference). That was a huge rule change and is often forgotten.

2. No conference was available and with the 13 year rule, there wouldn't have been a chance of getting in a conference for at least 10 years - NDSU/SDSU blindly took the plunge with this issue.

3. Their DI move occurred whan Grand Forks was still in a flood recovery mode - a major new tax for local resident for a dike assessment was upcoming. The local businesses were in no mood for supporting UND to move up. GF has a new confidence now that it understandably didn't have four years ago.

4. The REA was just coming on line and there was too much uncertainty in determining how much the REA would contribute to UND athletics. Would a sold-out REA continue for hockey or would average attendance would drop back down to 6000? In other words, there was too much uncertainty regarding ticket revenue.

5. UND was scheduled to host the 2005 DII men's basketball championships and held out hope that it would be a future host of the DII football and women't basketball championships. Local civic organizations saw DII as an way to attract visitors. The 2005 basketball tournament did not meet expectations (no local teams didn't help) and it has become all too clear that DII would not support a DII championship game at the Alerus.

6. The whole nickname issue makes the next few years an ideal time to move up.

IMO, those are pretty compelling arguments for why UND needed to act independently of NDSU/SDSU and in UND's best interest. Unfortunately, too many NDSU/SDSU fans seem to think that UND should act in the best interest of NDSU/SDSU.

Funny, most of your posts are SDSU related or SDSU defensive, 89rabbit has initials of "aff", and 89rabbit seems active on every board but this one. Sorry for the mistake, apparently jumped to a conclusion based on too few coincidences.

LOL. I think I was defending UNC just as much SDSU wasn't I? Also aff aren't initials, its an old joke some of my friends had with me. That is an incredible coincidence if 89rabbits initials are A-F-F. I can't even imagine what name that could be.

As for your reasons:

1. Acceptable

2. Despite what everyone on this board thinks, there still is no conference available to UND. Maybe I'm wrong, but I won't believe until I see it.

3. I'm sorry, but the level I've seen in Grand Forks from buisnesses is exceptional. How much more do you really expect for them to contribute to UND? I think you're pretty much maxed out.

4. I seriously doubt hosting the womens basketball championship at the Alerus is a reason for going D-I, unless you're saying you want to host the D-I basketball championship. I fail to see how going D-I solves this problem.

5. How is that ideal? You could have to spend millions to renovate the REA. Doesn't seem so helpful to me, especially when your upgrading scholarships.