NCAA gives FSU a pass

[PCM]

PCM: Fix the link.  That one takes the reader to your well-written, oft-cited opinion piece on USCHO.  Way to increase readership!

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Done. Sorry about that. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Sioux-cia]

OH DEAR GOD.

The people who made the original Chief Illiniwek costume were SIOUX. THOSE SELLOUTS! :

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Must have been one of those 'hanging around the Fort' Sioux that GrahamKracker keeps ragging about.

[Soup]

It looks like with the FSU decision, UND will likely dodge a bullet and not have to change their name...for now. The real decision will have to be made when schools like Wisconsin, St. Cloud and whoever else decide they are not going to play any games against schools that use Native American logos, nicknames, etc.

[Diggler]

If a school refuses to play UND, won't that result in forfeit loses to UND?

[HockeyMom]

If a school refuses to play UND, won't that result in forfeit loses to UND?

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Yes.

[PCM]

The real decision will have to be made when schools like Wisconsin, St. Cloud and whoever else decide they are not going to play any games against schools that use Native American logos, nicknames, etc.

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Wisconsin already plays UND, despite it's policy.

[Runninwiththedogs]

It looks like with the FSU decision, UND will likely dodge a bullet and not have to change their name...for now.  The real decision will have to be made when schools like Wisconsin, St. Cloud and whoever else decide they are not going to play any games against schools that use Native American logos, nicknames, etc.

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Wisconsin could never get around playing Illinois in basketball, just like they could never get around playing North Dakota in hockey. If you're not going to play with the best, then how are you going to prove you can compete?

Wisconsin and St. Cloud can just play each other all year round. Who cares?

[redwing77]

Though FSU was given a pass, I really think they went about it in a harsh, yet sensical manner. They threatened to get the NCAA where it matters the most: the pocketbooks.

I admire schools like UND, CMU, and Utah who are trying to "play by the rules" with this appeal runaround, and perhaps it will help them (us). However, I do believe, if Kupchella and crew were smart, they'd have legal on this building up a case. Because if the appeal fails, I'd sue.

And I think UND shouldn't just sue for its own purposes. I really think there should be (I can't believe I am endorsing this) a class action lawsuit against the NCAA to allow the schools to mandate their own nicknames and allow those with nicknames that could be deemed contraversial to organize and discuss the contraversy with those it directly impacts.

Nothing like common sense to ruin a bored diversity committee's day. They'll have to just go back to the mundane task of ensuring Title IX compliance and ensuring more minorities are represented in sports and those that are are treated equally. IMO, though, they should be disbanded for being contradictory to their mission. They're supposed to embrace diversity, not quash it.

[KnowtheFacts]

[KnowtheFacts]

[PCM]

I admire schools like UND, CMU, and Utah who are trying to "play by the rules" with this appeal runaround, and perhaps it will help them (us).  However, I do believe, if Kupchella and crew were smart, they'd have legal on  this building up a case.  Because if the appeal fails, I'd sue.

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To quote The Sicatoka: Where do you get this stuff.

UND is going through the NCAA's appeals process, just like FSU. And just like FSU, UND is saying that if it loses the appeal, it's prepared to go to court.

About the only thing UND hasn't done that FSU did is get the state's congressional delegation to publicly come down hard on the NCAA. But who knows what Conrad, Dorgan and Pomeroy are doing behind the scenes? I don't. Nor do I know what they might do if the NCAA denies UND's appeal.

FSU followed the strategy that was best for it. UND is doing the same. FSU's strategy worked, but that might have been because FSU had some cards to play that UND doesn't. It's too soon to say that what UND has done so far is wrong or unintellignet. Time will tell.

[CoteauRinkRat]

Though FSU was given a pass, I really think they went about it in a harsh, yet sensical manner.  They threatened to get the NCAA where it matters the most:  the pocketbooks.

I admire schools like UND, CMU, and Utah who are trying to "play by the rules" with this appeal runaround, and perhaps it will help them (us).  However, I do believe, if Kupchella and crew were smart, they'd have legal on  this building up a case.  Because if the appeal fails, I'd sue.

You don't think UND has their legal department on this already? I'm not sure how FSU went about it in "harsh" manner. They came out after the NCAA in the media, but did you read Kupchella's letter to the NCAA, I wouldn't exactly call that nice and friendly.

[dagies]

do you vote?

That's exactly my point. I DO vote. And the people I vote for don't ALWAYS do things I think they should. And the people who get elected that I DIDN'T vote for don't always do what I think they should either. I think BOTH situations are relevant.

[The Sicatoka]

However, I do believe, if Kupchella and crew were smart, they'd have legal on

[The Sicatoka]

However, I do believe, if Kupchella and crew were smart, they'd have legal on

[Diggler]

The Sicatoka: It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

redwing77's brain: What does that mean? Better say something or they'll think you're stupid.

redwing77: Takes one to know one.

redwing77's brain: Swish!

[lawkota]

Tough crowd.

First of all, I highly doubt that FSU went through the formal appeals process as outlined by the NCAA and if it did, it certainly got special treatment. The process was only formalized last Friday. Then, magically, on Tuesday, not only had FSU got its appeal in, but it had been heard by the staff committee and executive committee and then granted. Coincidently, on Tuesday night, Kupchella stated at a FSC gathering that he had not received information from the NCAA regarding the appeals process.

FSU went after the NCAA with all guns blazing. It used all its power as the gorilla of the bunch to get what was best for it, then vanish. Very effective and if UND was in the same situation, I'm sure I would want them to do the same. But it's hardly admirable behavior, and I think that's the point that redwing was trying to make.

But I wonder if FSU's quick attack won't come back to bite them in the @ss. It was granted an exemption simply because of the support of the tribe (which, according to the NCAA release last Friday, is the primary consideration). If the NCAA policy sticks, FSU is effectively at the mercy of a tribal resolution. Can you spell KA-CHING?

[ESPNInsider]

Can you spell KA-CHING?

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I would spell it cha-ching

[YaneA]

FSU's president, T.K. Wetherell, faxed a lettter of appeal dated Aug. 12, 2005, to Myles Brand. This was about the same time Kupchella sent his letter requesting answers to his questions and asking to be sent the forms necessary to mount an appeal. You can read FSU's winning appeal letter at

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/genrel/...scotletter.html

And as long as you're there, click on the "Traditions" link on the left to see what other elements of FSU pageantry are given tacit NCAA approval. Please be sure to read about the mystical power of "The War Chant" (a.k.a. tomahawk chop with chant) and the pregame ritual of Chief Osceola and his appaloosa, Renegade.

[PCM]

First of all, I highly doubt that FSU went through the formal appeals process as outlined by the NCAA and if it did, it certainly got special treatment. 

If having the first and only appeal submitted qualifies as "special treatment," then I suppose you're right. Where's your evidence that FSU didn't go through the appeals process?

One of the reasons the NCAA moved so quickly on FSU's appeal was because of the NCAA's obviously sloppy work in researching Seminole tribal support for FSU's use of the Seminole name. The NCAA simply assumed that the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma opposed FSU's use of the name. Because of that, the NCAA said that the support of the Florida Seminole tribe was immaterial.

However, the Oklahoma tribe was only too happy to prove the NCAA wrong, thus leaving Walter Harrison, Myles Brand and Charlotte Westerhaus with copious amounts of egg all over their faces and a PR nightmare.

You can call it special treatment. I call it quickly throwing the rug over a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the foot. It was to the NCAA's advantage to get FSU out of the spotlight and off the stage as soon as possible.

The process was only formalized last Friday.  Then, magically, on Tuesday, not only had FSU got its appeal in, but it had been heard by the staff committee and executive committee and then granted.

It had nothing to do with magic. FSU said from the beginning that it wanted an answer to its appeal before Aug. 29. If FSU wanted an answer that quickly, then it had to quickly submit its appeal, which it did. The reason why the NCAA moved so rapidly on FSU's appeal is stated above.

Coincidently, on Tuesday night, Kupchella stated at a FSC gathering that he had not received information from the NCAA regarding the appeals process.

Why is that a coincidence? FSU didn't submit a lengthy letter to the NCAA asking for clarification before submitting its appeal. UND did. The Herald says that Kupchella heard from the NCAA yesterday and received clarification. Phil Harmeson is quoted as saying that UND will submit its appeal by the close of business on Friday.

FSU went after the NCAA with all guns blazing.  It used all its power as the gorilla of the bunch to get what was best for it, then vanish.  Very effective and if UND was in the same situation, I'm sure I would want them to do the same.  But it's hardly admirable behavior, and I think that's the point that redwing was trying to make.

FSU did what was in its own best interest, and it did it well. As far as I know, FSU did nothing unethical or illegal in pursuing its appeal. And until someone can provide some evidence that FSU didn't go through the appeals process, I'll treat that statement as an unsubstantiated claim.

[lawkota]

You can call it special treatment. I call it quickly throwing the rug over a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the foot. It was to the NCAA's advantage to get FSU out of the spotlight and off the stage as soon as possible.

PCM, I don't see where we disagree. As YaneA posted, FSU's appeal was sent before an appeal process had been formalized. I certainly don't blame FSU that the NCAA acted on it, or think that FSU acted unethically or inappropriately and didn't mean to imply so, but neither do I think it deserves praise. All I meant to imply was the NCAA was hell bent on getting FSU out of the way, even if it meant relaxing the rules, and I question whether any of the other schools would have been treated similarly. And I also wonder if perhaps FSU would have been better served, in the long run, to fight the appropriateness of the policy, rather than seek a exemption from it.

On a side note, Interesting that in the NCAA's August 19 Press Release, tribal approval is a primary factor, despite that fact that the August 5 Release implies that use of names and images is never appropriate.

ka-ching and cha-ching

[PCM]

I certainly don't blame FSU that the NCAA acted on it, or think that FSU acted unethically or inappropriately and didn't mean to imply so, but neither do I think it deserves praise.

Wouldn't we be praising UND if it got an exemption from the NCAA as fast as FSU did?

All I meant to imply was the NCAA was hell bent on getting FSU out of the way, even if it meant relaxing the rules, and I question whether any of the other schools would have been treated similarly.

Other schools didn't have the advantages that FSU did, one of which was handed to it on a silver platter by the NCAA.

And I also wonder if perhaps FSU would have been better served, in the long run, to fight the appropriateness of the policy, rather than seek a exemption from it.

You could be right. But I'm not surprised that FSU did what was in its own best interest to return to the status quo as quickly as possible. That's what I figured it'd do all along.

No matter what happens, UND is going to have to fight its own battle on this one. I suspect that a big part of the NCAA's problem with UND is its past association with Ralph Engelstad. For that reason, I doubt that many schools are going to want to take on that baggage by appearing to ally with UND.

On a side note, Interesting that in the NCAA's August 19 Press Release, tribal approval is a primary factor, despite that fact that the August 5 Release implies that use of names and images is never appropriate.

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Yes, it is interesting to see how far the NCAA has moved from its Aug. 5 position. This is a portion of the transcript I made from the NCAA teleconference the day the new policy was announced. The answers were given by Walter Harrison, chair of the NCAA Executive Committee, and Charlotte Westerhaus, NCAA VP for diversity and inclusion.

St. Petersburg Times reporter: Dr. Harrison, on the mascot issue, would the abusive, hostile imagery, would that include a spear on a helmet and pregame or half-time performances?

Harrison: Yes.

SPT: Yes to both?

Harrison: Yes. I mean any imagery, chants, people riding around at half-time imitating Indians

[Goon]

do you vote?

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Dana, Johnny, Troll from UND Arts and Science department. (who ever)

What difference does it make if you vote? What now you have to be a poltically active to have an opinion about the UND fighting Sioux name.

Or are you going to give us a civics lession on voting rights and issues. Next you added your veterans status into the equation. Then If I am not mistake saw somewhere you said you weren't even Native American or American Indian. Your all over the place dude. Lets actually debate the issue and stop pontificating all over the place. Start answering the questions or find somewhere else to be on the parade ground.

The krux of the argument is and always will be is a small number of rebel rousers (that being the leftist P.C. hand wringers from the NCAA) are trying to stuff their opinions down the throats of others. Most times these rebel rousers are white liberal college professors. Of course truth and facts don't matter one bit in this issue.

I still think that this stupid ruling by the NCAA was a chicken crap shot over the bow by the NCAA to see how it would be recieved by the affected colleges. They let the news out on a Friday and let it fester all weekend, hoping they would get national support for their ill fated issue... By putting this out on a Fridayt they didn't have to answer any questions all weekend and can regroup on Monday based on the reception this act recieved.

Mac on Mac talk adressed this subject the other day with Phil Harmeson. He basically said that the NCAA produced this rediculous memo on the ruling against Native logos on a Friday, then when the affected schools call the NCAA they have no one available to answer the question the affected schools have. I am sorry but if you do something like this you better have the guts to stand by your ruling.

Now that the shot across the bow has fizzled and not been recieved very well. Basically the heat is now on the NCAA and these hand wringing do gooders are starting to retreat from this red herring. The NCAA is on the run so I say as alumni let them in full retreat, this is worth the fight. I say UND should go aggressively and not pussy foot around. UND should sue the pants off of the NCAA.

[Goon]

[KnowtheFacts]