Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[UND92,96]

Ryan Bakken blog entry.

[Chewey]

Ryan Bakken blog entry.

Bakken seems like an absolute weenie on this. There are legal experts, a lot of them, who say that UND can prevail. This attitude should make people even more irate and firm their resolve against the PC lunacy. This is a battle that needs to be fought irrespective of other issues which have been thrown in the way to detract our focus from the issue at hand. If schools elect not to schedule the Fighting Sioux, we will deal with that issue later. You win a fight by focusing on the issue at hand and then another. You don't simply capitulate just because other challenges may lie ahead. I view the MN thing as an opportunity. Like someone else said, subpoena the phone/fax/email records of various parties to see who's been contacting whom. The PC types are arrogant but not necessarily smart or attentive to detail. UND needs to see the lawsuit through. Somehow I do not think the alumni will take anything less than that. At least this alum will not accept anything less than that.

[ScottM]

Bakken seems like an absolute weenie on this. There are legal experts, a lot of them, who say that UND can prevail. This attitude should make people even more irate and firm their resolve against the PC lunacy. This is a battle that needs to be fought irrespective of other issues which have been thrown in the way to detract our focus from the issue at hand. If schools elect not to schedule the Fighting Sioux, we will deal with that issue later. You win a fight by focusing on the issue at hand and then another. You don't simply capitulate just because other challenges may lie ahead. I view the MN thing as an opportunity. Like someone else said, subpoena the phone/fax/email records of various parties to see who's been contacting whom. The PC types are arrogant but not necessarily smart or attentive to detail. UND needs to see the lawsuit through. Somehow I do not think the alumni will take anything less than that. At least this alum will not accept anything less than that.

Regardless if UND wins in court, it may still face a "100 Minnesotas" in the future. A favorable ruling would not require every school in the land to schedule UND, and very desireable schools are very likely to take Minnesota's tack, hypocritical as it is, like Michigan or BC in hockey, or Wisconsin or Iowa in football, or whatever. Regardless of the legal merits of this case, I find myself growing very irritated with those who want to make keeping the name a cause celeb among the right-wing bloggers, the same way the bed-wetters have done on the left. Maybe I'm too much of a pragmatist to really think the name is bigger than the school itself.

If the use of the name/logo puts the school and/or its athletes in a less than desirable situation, at D1, D2, or wherever, it's time for it to go. At the end of the day, "moral" victories are usually Pyrrhic victories in drag.

[The Sicatoka]

To me, right now, the best way out of this is to force everyone's hands. How? Easy.

If it were up to me, I'd have CEK walk to the podeum tomorrow and say:

"Unless other resolution can be made prior, effective February 15, 2007 the UND Athletic teams will be known as 'The Cavalry'." This puts us in compliance with NCAA policy regarding mascots based on race, ethnicity, or national origin. We choose the name 'Cavalry' because they killed more ...

bison

... than any group in history.

"Please also note, effective same date, UND will, in the spirit of helping meet the wishes and desires of Ms. Vermillion, head of Sitting Bull College, cease all cooperative activities, of any sort, with Sitting Bull College.

"Finally, also effective same date, UND will refocus its outreach efforts exclusively to America's veterans, the true cavalry, and rural health and economic development.

In closing, we are not dropping our lawsuit 'UND v. NCAA' because we continue to believe that they did breech a contract and did do us harm under the Sherman Anti-trust Act, or at least the corresponding state statutes.

That is all. Thank you."

Imagine the reactions that would garner. Oh the hypocrisy that would expose. It would be great theatre.

Never vote me in as "King for a Day."

[Smoggy]

Regardless if UND wins in court, it may still face a "100 Minnesotas" in the future.

If that is the case, why doesn't the NCAA bring this to a membership vote?

Furthermore, why aren't these PC hugging schools banning play against all schools with an ethnic name?

[Chewey]

Regardless if UND wins in court, it may still face a "100 Minnesotas" in the future. A favorable ruling would not require every school in the land to schedule UND, and very desireable schools are very likely to take Minnesota's tack, hypocritical as it is, like Michigan or BC in hockey, or Wisconsin or Iowa in football, or whatever. Regardless of the legal merits of this case, I find myself growing very irritated with those who want to make keeping the name a cause celeb among the right-wing bloggers, the same way the bed-wetters have done on the left. Maybe I'm too much of a pragmatist to really think the name is bigger than the school itself.

If the use of the name/logo puts the school and/or its athletes in a less than desirable situation, at D1, D2, or wherever, it's time for it to go. At the end of the day, "moral" victories are usually Pyrrhic victories in drag.

While I appreciate the points about Pyrrhic victories and the name appearing larger that the university itself, I disagree with them though they are cogent points. The issue is larger than the name. Ultimately, the issue is that the NCAA is usurping UND's/STate of ND's autonomy and ram-rodding PC policy down everyone's throats where it has no standing or cause to do so other than being virtually the only collegiate sports money making affiliation. What is next? A lot if nothing is done and if capitulation is the coin of the realm. Ultimately, it is the fact that the NCAA as a private (supposedly) body is setting forth "policy" and enforcing it to the financial detriment of public institutions. Such policy interferes with the proprietary interests/rights that such universities and states have. It has no business doing this at all. Like many have said, if the state/alumni/students vote to change the name, fine. A lot of good and positive change can come from winning such a fight. The publicity would be a beneficial thing. There are a lot of people vexed by the NC00 and its practices/failures and this would only add more arrows to the quiver. Ultimately, the legislators, weenies though they are, need to pass some legislation involving the NC00. If ND's three stooges were not so wobbly, I guess I'd have hope that they'd take the lead. I think the alumni from the respective affected schools such as UND, Illinois, etc need to get organized as a block and make some phone calls and write some letters.

[ScottM]

If that is the case, why doesn't the NCAA bring this to a membership vote?

Furthermore, why aren't these PC hugging schools banning play against all schools with an ethnic name?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

[GeauxSioux]

I agree BobIwabuchiFan. So many Sioux fans were for this fight and the principle of the fight and I now hear waffling. Did the principle of the fight go away when Minnesota said that they wouldn't schedule us? Granted playing UMTC would mean $$ to UND, but there has to be other schools who will play UND regardless of the nickname. I know that travel is always a concern and you would like to be able to have your fan base at an away game like they would be in MSP.

The South is far less PC than most of the rest of the country. I wonder how a game against Tulane or a Louisiana team would be if the Sioux faithful were able to spend some time in New Orleans or along the Mississippi Gulf Coast doing some gambling. University of Southen Mississippi is only a couple of hours from New Orleans and a little over an hour from the coast.

There are also some pretty big UND fan bases in Seattle, Phoenix and Denver, so playing UW, ASU or CU would be great too.

Don't knuckle under because of UMTC.

[Taz Boy]

UND and the State of North Dakota cannot worry about what UMN or UW think at this point. The issue is with the NCAA executive committee and their overreaching policy. This is THE battle. Follow-on spats with individual member schools takes a back seat in my opinion. The Dartmouth episode was clearly damaging to the NCAA's case; so they had to enlist some help. Where better than the folks at Gooferville?

North Dakota needs to prove that the NCAA is wrong. This is beyond the name and who can play who and with what uniforms and at what arena/field... The lawsuit must go on, it must be taken into court or settled favorably beforehand.

If by chance North Dakota wins, then they can make the nickname decision based on economics and competitive opportunity in their Div I transition. But, the decision will be theirs, and will ultimately be in the interest of the school. Giving in now only implies agreement that the campus in Grand Forks is indeed "hostile and abusive." Seriously, no one can feel good about that.

Win the case, then decide what to do about the Minny's and the Wiscos and their absolutely narrow-minded policies. Perhaps dropping the name and just becoming "North Dakota". Then, enact policy that forbids playing teams with embarrasing rodent mascots.

Go North Dakota. Go Sioux!

taz

[Chewey]

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

Very well said.

[bincitysioux]

GeauxSioux and Bobiwachuifan,

You both make excellent points. The problem is that, right or wrong, athletics are often the face of a university. This move to DI is about more than athletics, actually it is mostly about academics, good business, and prosperity for the university. The issue with this recent revelation by Minnesota is the fact that in this region of the Upper Midwest, UMTC is UND's biggest competitor both academically and athletically. They already have a huge advantage due to being in a metro area of 3+ million people and having upwards of 40,000 students. Minnesota is the closest major DI school to UND, and the next two closest are Iowa and Wisconsin. Apparently, none of the three of them want anything to do with us athletically due to an issue that they know absolutely nothing about. I think it is a major blow to know that none of these schools have no interest in competing against UND, and yes Minnesota was the big one. Sure, football and basketball can certainly find games to play against other major opponenst. But what about soccer, volleyball, baseball, softball, T & F, etc.? Those areas is where UND will be hurt most by these maniacal policies. It may pay to send the football team to the Southeast or Southwest part of the country once a year, but what about all these other sports teams, multiple times per year? My fear is that this just the beginning. We have these three. Then there is Dartmouth. The New England area (BC, BU, Harvard, UMASS, New Hampshire) is another area of the U.S. that I think UND would be relying upon for future scheduling, due to hockey ties, that with the predominant liberal views of that region could be the next to boycott UND.

I firmly believe that there is far greater support for the nickname than against, including the Native American community. The problem is that those few that are against it are making much more noise about it than the vast majority that think it is a non-issue.

[PCM]

The problem is that, right or wrong, athletics are often the face of a university. This move to DI is about more than athletics, actually it is mostly about academics, good business, and prosperity for the university.

We can't have any of that without Division I athletics? Sorry. I didn't buy that argument when NDSU made it and I'm not buying it when UND makes it.

[ScottM]

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

[GeauxSioux]

To me, right now, the best way out of this is to force everyone's hands. How? Easy.

If it were up to me, I'd have CEK walk to the podeum tomorrow and say:

"Unless other resolution can be made prior, effective February 15, 2007 the UND Athletic teams will be known as 'The Cavalry'." This puts us in compliance with NCAA policy regarding mascots based on race, ethnicity, or national origin. We choose the name 'Cavalry' because they killed more ...

bison

... than any group in history.

"Please also note, effective same date, UND will, in the spirit of helping meet the wishes and desires of Ms. Vermillion, head of Sitting Bull College, cease all cooperative activities, of any sort, with Sitting Bull College.

"Finally, also effective same date, UND will refocus its outreach efforts exclusively to America's veterans, the true cavalry, and rural health and economic development.

In closing, we are not dropping our lawsuit 'UND v. NCAA' because we continue to believe that they did breech a contract and did do us harm under the Sherman Anti-trust Act, or at least the corresponding state statutes.

That is all. Thank you."

Imagine the reactions that would garner. Oh the hypocrisy that would expose. It would be great theatre.

Never vote me in as "King for a Day."

I should have gone back a page when I posted earlier. Classic stuff.

[PCM]

I've lived in Grand Forks for 15 years and worked for UND almost the entire time. I am proud of UND. I am proud of my community. And I am sickened that the NCAA Executive Committee, without even setting foot on campus, can slap the label of racism on my employer and the town in which my children were raised.

The idea that all of us who live here and work day in and day out to make UND what it is and Grand Forks what it is are "hostile and abusive" to American Indians is patently absurd. It's wrong. It's not just a lie, it's damn hateful, dispicable lie.

I apologize profusely for not being willing to bend over and take it in the rear so some of you can bask in glory of losing to Minnesota in football and basketball. And I'm terribly sorry that you're inconvenieced when I don't work myself into the same tizzy that you do by worrying about whether NDSU has played a freaking game against some DI school that UND hasn't played.

Apparently my values are warped. Apparently I'm the one who lacks perspective and doesn't know what's important. I mean, what the hell is more important than a game? What the hell is more important than being entertained on a Saturday afternoon for a few hours?

Just go ahead and cave into the hypersenstive, literal-minded, race-baiting, forever-offended people of the world because, after all, when this is over and UND is playing pretend DI football, they'll be the ones you can count on to support your next leap to athletic glory. You will be their heroes.

Edited December 22, 2006 by PCM

[82SiouxGuy]

It is much too soon to get worked up about UMTC and their new policy. First, I don't know how solid this opposition will be in the future. There are a lot of people in the Twin Cities that have expressed outrage in the past couple of days. It has been a topic of discussion on KFAN radio and everyone thought it was ridiculous. Many UMTC supporters believe that it shows real weakness in the athletic department and they don't like it. Lou Nanne, former Minnesota North Star player and general manager was asked about the decision when he was making a weekly appearance. He is a big Gopher supporter and a friend of Maturi. He said that it was a really bad decision by the advisory council and that Maturi was being pushed into it. He pointed out that UND has a large alumni base in the Twin Cities that would buy a lot of tickets for games, plus the relationship built in hockey made it a good rivalry. So I am not positive that the policy will be enforced long term. As far as Wisconsin and Iowa are concerned, they have had these policies in place for several years so that should not factor into any decisions made at UND. It should have been known when the decision was made to go D I.

Second, it is way too early in the process. As we have seen, things are changing very rapidly. It is possible that the majority may speak up and stop the small minority that is driving this issue. It would be a bad idea to make a change if it isn't really needed. Even if UMTC follows through with their policy, and even if the hockey schools in the east follow a similar path, it will not greatly affect scheduling for at least 2-4 years. I think we should slow down and let things play out before even thinking about making a radical change.

As has been said on this board several times, we have 2 different issues to deal with. One is the NC$$ and their policy labeling the name hostile and abusive. The other issue is the name itself and the problems it may cause. I believe that we should finish the court case first. When that is decided, win or lose, then UND may need to take a hard look at the name itself again to see if it is in the best interests of the school for the long run. And this has nothing to do with anything that has happened in the past month, this is the way I have felt since it was announced that UND was going to sue. We just need to be consistent and not react to everything that happens during the process.

[PCM]

Good post, 82SiouxGuy.

[Taz Boy]

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

ScottM, tell your St. Cloud State Women's Studies professor to quit posting under your name.

Seriously, a stale UMN policy gets publicly restated, complete with backpedalling and excuses, and we start to eat our own? Is it that easy? The premier center for higher learning in North Dakota is accused of institutionalized racism and you're worried about missing a game against a crappy D-1 program?

Let the she-schools position themselves with empty policies driven by NCAA pressure. It's a stunt. It won't work. UMN has caught a glimpse of the football juggernaut that is North Dakota. A shot across the bow by the lowly Bison lads is only a preamble to the future of midwest D-I, and the era of the Fighting Sioux.

taz

[The Sicatoka]

Let me ask a previous question again:

If you capitulate here, what comes next? Seriously: What. Comes. Next.

How 'bout something like, "We won't play you in REA because of who it's named after"?

Sound outlandish? Where are we at now? It's not a great leap.

Don't kid yourselves; a big part of this remains because of the people who want to punish him even after he's been "on the other side of the grass" nearly half a decade.

(Thanks, and RIP, Mr. E.)

[BobIwabuchiFan]

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

Compromise, Compromise, Rationalize....It seems like it works for you...As for St. Louis, how can I find you? Oh yeah, I'll look for the 'Sittin' on the Fence' section!

[PCM]

Let me ask a previous question again:

If you capitulate here, what comes next? Seriously: What. Comes. Next.

And once you've allowed the NCAA to estbalish the precedent of rule by executive committee decree, what comes next?

[NorthDakotaHockey]

Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County.

Full Faith and Credit. United States Constitution. Just because the University's judgment handing the NCAA its head will be out of lil' ol' Grand Forks County does not mean that that judgment will not be given all appropriate regard throughout the land.

Of course, I could be wrong and often am, and I almost always find debates on legal issues to be somewhat stilted and of little lasting importance.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I've lived in Grand Forks for 15 years and worked for UND almost the entire time. I am proud of UND. I am proud of my community. And I am sickened that the NCAA Executive Committee, without even setting foot on campus, can slap the label of racism on my employer and the town in which my children were raised.

The idea that all of us who live here and work day in and day out to make UND what it is and Grand Forks what it is are "hostile and abusive" to American Indians is patently absurd. It's wrong. It's not just a lie, it's damn hateful, dispicable lie.

I apologize profusely for not being willing to bend over and take it in the rear so some of you can bask in glory of losing to Minnesota in football and basketball. And I'm terribly sorry that you're inconvenieced when I don't work myself into the same tizzy that you do by worrying about whether NDSU has played a freaking game against some DI school that UND hasn't played.

Apparently my values are warped. Apparently I'm the one who lacks perspective and doesn't know what's important. I mean, what the hell is more important than a game? What the hell is more important than being entertained on a Saturday afternoon for a few hours?

Just go ahead and cave into the hypersenstive, literal-minded, race-baiting, forever-offended people of the world because, after all, when this is over and UND is playing pretend DI football, they'll be the ones you can count on to support your next leap to athletic glory. You will be their heroes.

Great post PCM, I couldn't agree more. I would have liked to written these same thoughts, but I'm not as good at doing it as you are.

[Sioux-cia]

And once you've allowed the NCAA to estbalish the precedent of rule by executive committee decree, what comes next?

You all know where I stand! Bending over and saying, 'I quit', is not a position I choose to take.

I respect the opinions of those Sioux fans who choose to capitulate to the NC$$. I just don't agree with you nor will I support your choice.