Chewey Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 3 points: 1) I believe the Summit has already "quietly" reviewed UND's application and approving it will just be a formality...IF the nickname issue is resolved in a timely manner. If they took USD, then the writing is on the wall that UND would be approved. I believe the Summit wants to use the Dakota flagship public schools as an opportunity to build something special and less transient, in terms of membership. They want to compete with the MVC. 2) Why is everyone ignoring the SBoHE's 2nd requirement, that the tribes must agree to 30 year contracts? Obviously we haven't even got to that point yet because both tribes have not agreed to support the nickname in the first place. But I don't get the attitude here that "if only we cold just get a SR vote on the issue, we win". No, you don't. It means you finally made it half way. The other half would be the negotiation between the SR and SL and the state on the contractual deal to support the nickname. 3) Anyone who would not support UND just because of the nickname being retired is not a true UND fan, IMO. It's your right to be pissed off and bemoan the unfortunate situation. But why continue to punish your own university and the current/future players? The 30 year thing is something that is not supported by the ND AG and it could just as easily be rescinded or some lesser time frame could be suggested. That time frame was not part of the agreement. If the school gets the tribes' "perpetual" approval (and it already has one tribe's approval), the name stays, in my opinion, and the 30 year business goes out the window. As to #3 (as well as virtually everything else), your obtuse makeup probably would preclude any kind of insight. Nonetheless, it's manner in which it would be changed (early deadline, jelly fish for administrators at UND, etc., view of collusion between the NC$$, the Summit, the SBoHE, etc.) that would piss people off. If the original deadline were followed and the nickname did not receive approval, as per the terms of the surrender agreement, then fine change the name. However, imposing terms not stated in the agreement, parading the psuedo-exigency regarding the Summit League, acquiescing to collusion between the NC$$ and the Summit League = no respect for the surrender agreement or for the fans and alumni. This is exactly how it looks to the vast majority of people, in my opinion. Like it or not, if people are pissed their pocket books are going to close up. They don't teach you this at the PC asylum but it is a harsh reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rochsioux Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Something just doesn't smell right. 1. I have never seen any statement from Kelly or Faison in support of the nickname. At best, a lack of comment either way implies poor leadership to me. 2. The Summit League Commissionor is Tom Douple. He is a member of the NCAA Leadership council. This council has regular meetings, one of the items they seem to review is the status of NC$$ litigation. Bernard Franklin is also an attendee at these meetings. Does that mean there is collusion between the NC$$ and the Summit to try and force UND to drop the nickname ? No, but it just adds another layer to a very confounding statement from the Summit League. 3. Right after the Spirit Lake tribe voted in favor of the nickname the State Board got more involved and started the deadlines for eliminating the nickname far in advance of the deadline that came out of the lawsuit with the NC$$. Not only did they move the deadline up but added the 30 year agreement provision, almost begging to have the nickname retired. A few comments from this article: http://wcco.com/local/fighting.sioux.nickname.2.1010383.html "UND President Robert Kelley spoke of the logo and nickname in the past tense on Thursday." Said Richie Smith, the president of the Board of Higher Education: "The logo and nickname have been symbols of pride for many generations, but it's time to go forward." Board member Grant Shaft, who is chairman of a committee that has been studying the issue, said the move may help UND's likely application to join the Summit League, an 11-member NCAA Division I conference that is seeking a 12th school. Tom Douple, the Summit League's commissioner, has said the University of North Dakota won't be considered for membership as long as the nickname and logo dispute festered. Shaft said Douple advised him that several schools are possibilities as a 12th Summit League member, and said UND should apply as soon as possible if it is interested in joining. Shaft and Kelley were among a group of university system officials who met with Douple last month at the league's suburban Chicago headquarters. Douple said there was no guarantee UND would be admitted even if the nickname and logo issue were resolved, Shaft said. Douple's statements made a settlement of the nickname dispute more urgent, Shaft told board members. Shaft said UND supporters of the nickname and logo may be partly mollified when they realize a quick resolution of the dispute was needed for UND to have a chance at joining the Summit League, the Big Sky Conference or another Division I league. "What this permits the University of North Dakota to do is to start a marketing initiative," Kelley said. Most of the Standing Rock Sioux tribal council is up for re-election this year, and His Horse Is Thunder said he expects nickname and logo supporters to attempt to field candidates. I personally believe that UND only sued the NC$$ to get a retraction on the hostile and abusive label. The president and athletic director want to get rid of the nickname but don't want be blamed for it. The feeling was with the lawsuit surrender agreement that they had no chance to get approval from the tribal councils and hence the blame would be placed on the tribes. What happen next took them all by surprise when the tribal members themselves took the initiative to win approval. Their ace-in-the-hole was Standing Rock but their tribal council was up for re-election in Sept and what if they elected a more nickname favorable council ? When they saw this happening they needed to develop a new plan to force the issue before approval could be obtained. So they threw out the red herring of conference membership. Have the Summit League issue a statement that they won't consider UND while the nickname dispute "festers". Never mind that the issue would be resolved per the court agreement prior to UND playing their first game as a member of the Summit. Their actions may have backfired on them with public opinion so they started extending the deadlines. The state board and UND are in a bind with the nickname and are looking for a way out without taking the blame. Who knows, Charles Murphy may also be playing a game with the state board to see who blinks first. I am not 100% convinced he is in favor of the name based on some of his past statements years ago. He may just be drawing this out waiting for the state board to step in and drop the nickname. I hope that is in favor of letting the membership decide regardless of his personal beliefs. Bottom line is that neither side wants to be blamed if/when the nickname is abandoned. When something doesn't pass the common sense test I tend to think that people are idiots or there is some backroom collusion going on. I have to believe that most of these people are pretty smart so that only leaves one conclusion. I think it is entirely possible that there is some level of collusion between UND and the Summit League, or even the Summit League and the NC$$. I am sure the NC$$ was not happy with the lawsuit that UND filed and would be very happy to see UND drop the nickname. Does anyone think the the NC$$ would never be vindictive towards a school that had the audacity to file a lawsuit ? Finally, I agree with Sam Dupris statement: "Why did you agree to the settlement in the first place? Was it because it was the easy way out, or was it because you never intended to stick to your convictions?" Dupris told the board before Thursday's vote. "Why this sudden and unexpected turn, to bail out, to abandon us, the Sioux? You leave us confused and forsaken." 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Shawn-O Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Finally, I agree with Sam Dupris statement: "Why did you agree to the settlement in the first place? Was it because it was the easy way out, or was it because you never intended to stick to your convictions?" Dupris told the board before Thursday's vote. "Why this sudden and unexpected turn, to bail out, to abandon us, the Sioux? You leave us confused and forsaken." Lifted from the Alerus Center thread: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 The 30 year thing is something that is not supported by the ND AG and it could just as easily be rescinded or some lesser time frame could be suggested. That time frame was not part of the agreement. If the school gets the tribes' "perpetual" approval (and it already has one tribe's approval), the name stays, in my opinion, and the 30 year business goes out the window. As to #3 (as well as virtually everything else), your obtuse makeup probably would preclude any kind of insight. Nonetheless, it's manner in which it would be changed (early deadline, jelly fish for administrators at UND, etc., view of collusion between the NC$, the Summit, the SBoHE, etc.) that would piss people off. If the original deadline were followed and the nickname did not receive approval, as per the terms of the surrender agreement, then fine change the name. However, imposing terms not stated in the agreement, parading the psuedo-exigency regarding the Summit League, acquiescing to collusion between the NC$ and the Summit League = no respect for the surrender agreement or for the fans and alumni. This is exactly how it looks to the vast majority of people, in my opinion. Like it or not, if people are pissed their pocket books are going to close up. They don't teach you this at the PC asylum but it is a harsh reality. You can pull your tin-foil hat on as tight as you want (collusion, etc....which is a complete joke from the nickname supporters). The requirements from the SBoHE are what they are. Sure, they could be rolled back or eliminated. But until they are, those are the requirements. And once again, you have all the right in the world to be pissed off at an obviously crappy situation. But to them take it out on the university and players? Childish and pathetic, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Something just doesn't smell right. 1. I have never seen any statement from Kelly or Faison in support of the nickname. At best, a lack of comment either way implies poor leadership to me. 2. The Summit League Commissionor is Tom Douple. He is a member of the NCAA Leadership council. This council has regular meetings, one of the items they seem to review is the status of NC$ litigation. Bernard Franklin is also an attendee at these meetings. Does that mean there is collusion between the NC$ and the Summit to try and force UND to drop the nickname ? No, but it just adds another layer to a very confounding statement from the Summit League. 3. Right after the Spirit Lake tribe voted in favor of the nickname the State Board got more involved and started the deadlines for eliminating the nickname far in advance of the deadline that came out of the lawsuit with the NC$. Not only did they move the deadline up but added the 30 year agreement provision, almost begging to have the nickname retired. A few comments from this article: http://wcco.com/local/fighting.sioux.nickname.2.1010383.html I personally believe that UND only sued the NC$ to get a retraction on the hostile and abusive label. The president and athletic director want to get rid of the nickname but don't want be blamed for it. The feeling was with the lawsuit surrender agreement that they had no chance to get approval from the tribal councils and hence the blame would be placed on the tribes. What happen next took them all by surprise when the tribal members themselves took the initiative to win approval. Their ace-in-the-hole was Standing Rock but their tribal council was up for re-election in Sept and what if they elected a more nickname favorable council ? When they saw this happening they needed to develop a new plan to force the issue before approval could be obtained. So they threw out the red herring of conference membership. Have the Summit League issue a statement that they won't consider UND while the nickname dispute "festers". Never mind that the issue would be resolved per the court agreement prior to UND playing their first game as a member of the Summit. Their actions may have backfired on them with public opinion so they started extending the deadlines. The state board and UND are in a bind with the nickname and are looking for a way out without taking the blame. Who knows, Charles Murphy may also be playing a game with the state board to see who blinks first. I am not 100% convinced he is in favor of the name based on some of his past statements years ago. He may just be drawing this out waiting for the state board to step in and drop the nickname. I hope that is in favor of letting the membership decide regardless of his personal beliefs. Bottom line is that neither side wants to be blamed if/when the nickname is abandoned. When something doesn't pass the common sense test I tend to think that people are idiots or there is some backroom collusion going on. I have to believe that most of these people are pretty smart so that only leaves one conclusion. I think it is entirely possible that there is some level of collusion between UND and the Summit League, or even the Summit League and the NC$. I am sure the NC$ was not happy with the lawsuit that UND filed and would be very happy to see UND drop the nickname. Does anyone think the the NC$ would never be vindictive towards a school that had the audacity to file a lawsuit ? Finally, I agree with Sam Dupris statement: "Why did you agree to the settlement in the first place? Was it because it was the easy way out, or was it because you never intended to stick to your convictions?" Dupris told the board before Thursday's vote. "Why this sudden and unexpected turn, to bail out, to abandon us, the Sioux? You leave us confused and forsaken." Come on. This collusion stuff is tin-foil hat to the level of Bush causing 9/11. What good does even coming up with this stuff do? Say you were even right...is there anything you can do about it? No. And 99.999% you're completely wrong. Kelley is not going to get dragged into the nickname mess. He has a school to run. The nickname is very minor part of a small section of the university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Does anyone know how long it took from the visits and application for USD to be announced as a member of the Summit League? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Does anyone know how long it took from the visits and application for USD to be announced as a member of the Summit League? I don't remember for sure, but it seems like it was at least 2 or 3 months from application to announcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knickball2 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 When volleyball, basketball, swimming, soccer, golf and whatever other trivial sports exist at UND start packing in fans other than parents of those playing, I'll begin to care about the Summit League. Anybody been to the Betty and watched those teams pretending to be a DI-AA product. I have, and conference or no conference they have light years to go before they're going to be competitive. I still attend these events, not sure why, but where are the rest of you Summit conference supporters who believe that that conference is the godsend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 When volleyball, basketball, swimming, soccer, golf and whatever other trivial sports exist at UND start packing in fans other than parents of those playing, I'll begin to care about the Summit League. Anybody been to the Betty and watched those teams pretending to be a DI-AA product. I have, and conference or no conference they have light years to go before they're going to be competitive. I still attend these events, not sure why, but where are the rest of you Summit conference supporters who believe that that conference is the godsend. I'm sorry you feel that way. Getting into the Summit League will help cut travel expenses for all of those sports, which is a huge expense. It would also help draw fans when playing familiar schools like the XDSUs and USD. It will help in recruiting athletes for those sports because the teams would have a real league to compete in. The team sports would be able to compete for an auto bid to National tournaments, which means winning the league gets you into the tournament instead of having to depend on an at-large bid, which is pretty rare for independent teams. A lot of other issues become much easier and less time consuming for UND staff, like scheduling. All of these would be true of getting into any of the current auto bid leagues. But the Summit is the only one that looks even possible in the next 3 to 5 years. And if UND isn't in an auto bid conference within 3 to 5 years it is going to make the transition to Division I almost impossible. Look, I'm a huge fan of the nickname and logo. But there is a time crunch approaching. Unless the Summit gives on their deadline, or the Standing Rock Tribal Council makes some kind of move, the SBoHE is going to have to make a very difficult choice. And if there isn't movement from one of the two entities listed above, the nickname will probably be changed. If you hadn't noticed, UND did pretty well in volleyball this year. They won the Great West, such as it is. But they also beat several other Division I schools, including teams from the Summit, and ended up with only 6 losses on the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 4. your a complete moron Yes he is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopherz Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 4. your a complete moron HAHAHAHAHAHA I agree that he is a moron but I couldn't help but laugh at this ;) :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 HAHAHAHAHAHA I agree that he is a moron but I couldn't help but laugh at this ;) :lol: I did not know we were in English class. Maybe he said it that way for effect. One has to consider the audience he was addressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopherz Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I did not know we were in English class. Maybe he said it that way for effect. One has to consider the audience he was addressing. Well if we are in English class, you have a little mistake in your post too. ;) But on a non-grammatical Nazi point...MplsBison, you disgrace this city and I wish you would disappear. Anyone who honestly hopes that this nickname goes away is an IDIOT. Obviously I don't like the Sioux as a team since I am a Gopher fan, but I respect the nickname, the meaning of it to the fans and the university, and the history of it to everyone involved. Thinking from an unbiased point of view, I think it's best for the University of North Dakota to settle this one way or the other. Is it right for the Summit League to hold this over their head and threaten membership if they don't get it resolved in a timely matter? Absolutely not. But UND has no choice, they play by the Summit League's rules. If you're a fan of UND sports besides the hockey team (which I am not, but I understand the situation), it is of the utmost importance to be affiliated with a league, and there's no better league for you than the Summit. For the purpose of all other sports, if it takes the name being retired before the November deadline to gain entrance into the League, the name has to and will be retired. Like I said, I don't want this name to go, as I respect what it stands for...That being said, it needs to be retired and it will be if that's what it takes to join the Summit League. All the complaining on either side of the argument is definitely irrelevant, as no one really knows what's going on and what is going to ultimately happen, but I suppose that's the point of these boards is to discuss. Sorry for the rant, just thought I would throw my 2 cents out there. (And if I had to predict what happens, I'd say the SBoHE decides to prematurely retire the name and is met with some serious backlash) -gopherz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 GEEZ I'm starting to like this Gopherz guy do you hunt ducks or Chinese ditch chickens ? ? ? except I could careless about any league who disrespects the Sioux name & Logo I rather go without a league until this gets resolved, as has been the plan - to not let this go on to conclusion will alienate so many - that it will take along time, if ever, for many to forget - sorry but other sports better back off - Hockey is #1 in GF & the division will hurt all UND sports & all of UND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 GEEZ I'm starting to like this Gopherz guy do you hunt ducks or Chinese ditch chickens ? ? ? except I could careless about any league who disrespects the Sioux name & Logo I rather go without a league until this gets resolved, as has been the plan - to not let this go on to conclusion will alienate so many - that it will take along time, if ever, for many to forget - sorry but other sports better back off - Hockey is #1 in GF & the division will hurt all UND sports & all of UND Hockey brings in all of the attention and money. I am sure football and basketball are doing ok but hockey is what basically underwrites the whole athletic department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 GEEZ I'm starting to like this Gopherz guy do you hunt ducks or Chinese ditch chickens ? ? ? except I could careless about any league who disrespects the Sioux name & Logo Ditch Chickens... Nice! I have to agree as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hockey brings in all of the attention and money. I am sure football and basketball are doing ok but hockey is what basically underwrites the whole athletic department. They shouldn't get to deny the rest of the sports a conference just for a nickname. How ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 They shouldn't get to deny the rest of the sports a conference just for a nickname. How ridiculous. We are in a conference. The Great West Conference, and in 2020 will be an auto bid to the NCAA basketball tournament. Just think if we keep the nickname and miss the Summit deadline we will be playoff eligible for basketball in another 8 years (2012-2020). So all is not lost if we want to keep the name. I just hope we can do both the Summit and keep the name, but don't say we will never be in a conference. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...&id=3609171 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Unable to host a playoff game and unable to have the name/logo listed during playoff games. Only if we ignore the NCAA deadline, Mplsbison wants to go by the SBoHE deadline and change it now so we can get into the Summit, well there is an alternative to the Summit and maybe keep the name and please the NCAA kind of a hat trick and that is to stay in the Great West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 We are in a conference. The Great West Conference, and in 2020 will be an auto bid to the NCAA basketball tournament. Just think if we keep the nickname and miss the Summit deadline we will be playoff eligible for basketball in another 8 years (2012-2020). So all is not lost if we want to keep the name. I just hope we can do both the Summit and keep the name, but don't say we will never be in a conference. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...&id=3609171 There is no guarantee that the Great West would get an auto bid in 2020 or ever. The NCAA doesn't have to give a conference an auto bid. But more important are the regulations requiring the number of schools that stay together and how long they stay together. Basically, pretty much all of the schools would have to stay together for the next 10 years before the league is eligible for the NCAA to even consider giving an auto bid. Of course not getting into an auto bid conference for another 10 years would probably kill the athletic department anyway, so UND would have been better off going back to Division II rather than staying in Division I without being in an auto bid conference. The Great West is not a long term solution, and it never was meant to be a long term solution. It is a glorified scheduling alliance that gives a bunch of schools that were independent something to play for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 We are in a conference. The Great West Conference, and in 2020 will be an auto bid to the NCAA basketball tournament. Just think if we keep the nickname and miss the Summit deadline we will be playoff eligible for basketball in another 8 years (2012-2020). So all is not lost if we want to keep the name. I just hope we can do both the Summit and keep the name, but don't say we will never be in a conference. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...&id=3609171 The Schools in the Great West will not stay in the conference that long. And the NCAA does not automatically have to grant the GW an auto-bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The Schools in the Great West will not stay in the conference that long. And the NCAA does not automatically have to grant the GW an auto-bid. Okay maybe the GW is not the best for Sioux bball. But with 1 win what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Okay maybe the GW is not the best for Sioux bball. But with 1 win what is. When UND makes the NCAA tournament using the Summit auto bid and plays a first round game against a big name bball school in Mpls, then you'll understand. Giving up a legitimate, auto-bid conference so the hockey team can keep the nickname is not worth it, IMO. It's a selfish attitude and people who believe that need to grow up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 When UND makes the NCAA tournament using the Summit auto bid and plays a first round game against a big name bball school in Mpls, then you'll understand. Giving up a legitimate, auto-bid conference so the hockey team can keep the nickname is not worth it, IMO. It's a selfish attitude and people who believe that need to grow up! Guess we will find out within 9 days!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I haven't read this whole thread, so can someone tell me if the Summit has given UND any kind of deadline to apply by (with the nickname resolved)? If they haven't, it seems to me that with a matter of months left between now and the final deadline date (worst scenario) they are probably willing to wait for this thing to run its course, if they had someone else they were really interested in they would have probably moved them in by now. They know the nickname issue will be settled one way or the other soon, and we will gladly accept their offer whether we're the Fighting Sioux or something else. I think the closer we get to the deadline the less weight the "join the Summit now or be left out in the cold" theory holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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