Reasons for Keeping the Name

[Smoggy]

I'm hitting two threads at once with this.

First off, I support the name. Secondly I've been waiting since my college days to hear why it should be changed. Nothing has ever been convincing. Plus, I've always heard it from white people (why are we the only ones labeled by color?).

I became a teacher. Go check out that building. Rotting ceiling tile, asbestos, and crappy desks and chairs. It'll never get repaired due to teachers not making any money and being able to donate. Maybe I'll win the lotto one day.

While in school I was forced to take a diversity class. I learned a lot. I didn't much care for one political view being forced on me, but it was informative.

Now I'm teaching in California. Last year in a very poor part of San Bernardino full of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Very poor. I had students that literally lived in boxes or their cars. I was one of only a hand full of white people.

This year I'm in Palmdale teaching high school. Again a poor area and out of 175 students I have maybe five white kids, a handful of african americans, and the rest are of hispanic origins be it Mexico or not.

The reason I bring all this up is because when my kids first saw my University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux pennant, they asked, "what's a Sigh-Ox?" What a learning tool for me. I got to teach the knowledge (though limited) that I have about Native Americans and especially the North Dakota tribes. Now my students can pronounce the name and even ask about things that come up like Red Lake.

Without the name attatched to the University, no one in this country would care/hear about the Sioux/Lakota/Dakota/or whatever else.

[iramurphy]

I'm hitting two threads at once with this.

First off, I support the name.  Secondly I've been waiting since my college days to hear why it should be changed.  Nothing has ever been convincing.  Plus, I've always heard it from white people (why are we the only ones labeled by color?).

I became a teacher.  Go check out that building.  Rotting ceiling tile, asbestos, and crappy desks and chairs.  It'll never get repaired due to teachers not making any money and being able to donate.  Maybe I'll win the lotto one day.

While in school I was forced to take a diversity class.  I learned a lot.  I didn't much care for one political view being forced on me, but it was informative.

Now I'm teaching in California.  Last year in a very poor part of San Bernardino full of illegal immigrants from Mexico.  Very poor.  I had students that literally lived in boxes or their cars.  I was one of only a hand full of white people.

This year I'm in Palmdale teaching high school.  Again a poor area and out of 175 students I have maybe five white kids, a handful of african americans, and the rest are of hispanic origins be it Mexico or not.

The reason I bring all this up is because when my kids first saw my University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux pennant, they asked, "what's a Sigh-Ox?"  What a learning tool for me.  I got to teach the knowledge (though limited) that I have about Native Americans and especially the North Dakota tribes.  Now my students can pronounce the name and even ask about things that come up like Red Lake.

Without the name attatched to the University, no one in this country would care/hear about the Sioux/Lakota/Dakota/or whatever else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice summary and a good example of how the name can benefit Native Americans.

I have been wondering what the heck happened to Graham Cracker. I was hoping to get an answer and some dialogue on this issue. Whenever I have seen someone raise what I think are legitimate questions and thoughts, those who oppose the name somehow either disappear or refuse to address the specific issues raised.

I believe Native Americans have a choice to accept a gift from another culture and make it work for them. Isn't that part of diversity? There are so many things this could lead to such as outreach for kids on the reservations for math, science, fine arts and athletic camps and clinics. If I were in a leadership position at the tribal council level I would bring these thoughts back to the reservation and consider the opportunites. That is what leadership is all about.

Graham are you still at your senate meeting? Some one wake him up or he will miss finals. Help me out here.

[ESPNInsider]

I guess we know how DaveK feels.

[ScottM]

Frankly, I think people who are worried about team names/logos and their presumed "effects" on American Indians are missing the point. Given the rampant poverty, addiction, suicide rates, crime and health problems found on most reservations, and in the inner cities, I really doubt that changing any school's name just to appease a few hypersensitive, hand wringing bed-wetters is going to have any discernible impact on the lives of most Indians. It would make the academics happy for a few seconds, as well as those whites whose only contact with Indians comes from trips to the casino or reruns of "The Lone Ranger", but I doubt it would impact the crisis facing Indians today.

There was an excellent article in the NY Times yesterday about the unraveling of traditional family units among Indians, and how the tribes and the feds are ill-equipped to deal with the effects of this breakdown. Perhaps if the name change crowd directed its "intellect" towards more basic issues they might gain a shred of credibility. However, that would take some thought and serious soul searching, both of which seem to elude these people. Hell, I'm surprised some "scholar" hasn't blamed the Red Lake shootings on the UND name/logo, yet.

[CoteauRinkRat]

Hell, I'm surprised some "scholar" hasn't blamed the Red Lake shootings on the UND name/logo, yet. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just wait, i'm sure that is coming from Doreen Yellow Bird.

[PCM]

Or maybe Ward Churchill.

[iramurphy]

Frankly, I think people who are worried about team names/logos and their presumed "effects" on American Indians are missing the point.  Given the rampant poverty, addiction, suicide rates, crime and health problems found on most reservations, and in the inner cities, I really doubt that changing any school's name just to appease a few hypersensitive, hand wringing bed-wetters is going to have any discernible impact on the lives of most Indians.  It would make the academics happy for a few seconds, as well as those whites whose only contact with Indians comes from trips to the casino or reruns of "The Lone Ranger", but I doubt it would impact the crisis facing Indians today. 

There was an excellent article in the NY Times yesterday about the unraveling of traditional family units among Indians, and how the tribes and the feds are ill-equipped to deal with the effects of this breakdown.  Perhaps if the name change crowd directed its "intellect" towards more basic issues they might gain a shred of credibility.  However, that would take some thought and serious soul searching, both of which seem to elude these people.  Hell, I'm surprised some "scholar" hasn't blamed the Red Lake shootings on the UND name/logo, yet. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are right. A couple of observations. This group, however small, really needs to "win one". I think they see this as winable because there are enough politically correct Admin types, politicians, and campus liberals who will feel more comfortable with their evening bong if they jump on this issue. It is easier than getting to the real problems of poverty, education, violence, unemployment etc.

It is near impossible to try to help as an outsider. We often are looked at as the ones who caused the poverty and destruction of culture and Native ways. Maybe you and I didn't but we must understand how many feel. I still think the use of the Fighting Sioux name can be used to help Native Americans. It could be used to bridge cultures. There are many Native Americans who agree and like the idea that the Sioux name is published across the country in a positive manner associated with UND athletics. There are also many narrow minded enough who refuse to see the possibilities because some opposing fan yelled "Sioux suck" or some drunk, rednecked peckerwood showed their ignorance by making racially insensitive remarks. Those people who can't get past their anger seem to be unwilling to have any discussion on how our culture felt this was an honor. They do not see interseted in diversity and I have expressed that point ad nauseum on earlier comments. They have a double standard when it comes to cultures. Ours is not important and they have no respect for what our elders tried to do even though their own elders were wise enough to understand and see the potential for collaboration.

There are also many who have enough self confidence and cultural pride to share their culture with us and see how we can work together to make things better for us and Native Americans. UND should continue to work with them and expand what we can do around the state and region to make a positive difference in the lives of the kids on the reservation, so 50 years from now UND would face litigation if we dared drop the name.

[bkuddy]

If I have to live with the Minnesota Vikings you have to live with the UND Fighting Sioux

[SiouxperDave]

Oh cry me a river!!  That was many years ago.  Its been a while since they been passing out smallpox blankets.  Trying to act like you're the only people that have ever been royally screwed here.  Back in WWII, all the Japanese-Americans were rounded up and sent off to live in consintration camps.  They pretty much just give them barely enough time to pack a few things before they put them on the bus to one of the camps.  Some were even shipped out to ND to camps there to work.  And there was all that racist propaganda churned out to make the public all think that they were inferior ape-men.  And yet, after all of that, they did pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and a lot of them became pretty darn successful. 

Quiet crying like your people have been the only ones throughout history that have ever gotten the short end of the stick.  I'm pretty sure that the Jews could tell you a thing or two about that and convince you that they have had it worse.  Bondage in Eygpt, Roman Occupation, the Spanish Inquestition, and the Holocust ring a bell to you??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said.

[ESPNInsider]

Another sob article by Doreen Yellow Bird in the paper today.

Yellowbird rant

It saddens me that people have to go through life looking at everything as being unfair to them, or negative toward them. It's time to step out of the shell and realize that there are better things in the world and better places. America is a great place to live, if you want to live in one city and go to the schools there, that is your choice, if you want to live in another, that is just fine too. I just find it hard to believe that in this day in age people feel they are stuck in one place and do not have the freedom to move out.

[Norseman]

The reason I bring all this up is because when my kids first saw my University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux pennant, they asked, "what's a Sigh-Ox?"

[fightonsioux]

Why is it that we always "have to learn about Native American History" what about German history, Irish history, Norwegian history. They aren't teaching these in schools, but you don't hear us whining about it.

According to Dorreen we can blame the Columbine shootings on nicknames like Fighting Irish, Knights, Vikings, ect.

She is so far gone you have to look past PETA to try and see her.

I guess until us Caucasians get an editorial columnist on the payroll to run their agenda on the editorial pages, we just don't matter.

Racial discrimination CAN and DOES happen to Caucasian Americans! You just don't hear or read about it.

A Caucasian American was beat to death in Devils Lake by 7 American Indians, yet there was nothing mentioned about a hate crime. What if it would have been the other way around?

[ESPNInsider]

A Caucasian American was beat to death in Devils Lake by 7 American Indians, yet there was nothing mentioned about a hate crime. What if it would have been the other way around?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I thought there was quite a bit of talk about it being a hate crime right away.

[DamStrait]

My question is therefore: Are UND as well as REA and FS-supporters really honoring the Sioux people??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My question is: Are UND as well as REA and FS-supporters doing anything other than honoring the Sioux people??

Why does UND using 'Fighting Sioux' as it's nickname for athletic teams get your undies in a bunch? Plausible answers only please!

I get the feeling that were someone to drop several million $ in your lap you'd somehow find a way to bitch about that too.

[Norseman]

Why is it that we always "have to learn about Native American History" what about German history, Irish history, Norwegian history. They aren't teaching these in schools, but you don't hear us whining about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should learn the history of ALL those people you mention! Seriously, if you haven't learned anything about the history of Germany, Ireland and Norway (at least some of it) in a world history class in school, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the American school system!

[Smoggy]

I think your last remark is very strange, especially since you are a teacher. You are saying that if the sioux name wasn't connected to UND no one in the USA would hear or care about them? I can assume then that the history of Native Americans is not part of the curriculum in schools. Perhaps that is why there seems to be a lot of ignorance about indians, as kids do not learn about Native American history and teachers don't find it worthwhile to teach. As you yourself stated, you have limited knowledge about Native Americans. I wonder how knowledgable most people are about the Sioux nation and other tribes (both supporters and opponents of the nickname)? And how is really UND honoring the Sioux?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, I'm a MATH teacher. I don't do history.

Secondly, you don't want to argue with a teacher about what we are FORCED to teach or not. Blame Bush's No Child Left Behind for what your kids learn.

Thirdly, GF does teach North Dakota history in 8th grade, but do you really think the Hispanics I teach in Southern California want to learn about North Dakota? There are way to many Native American tribes that there is just no way for a school to teach about all of them.

[BleedGrn]

I have been around Grand Forks all of my life. I have never thought of the use of the nickname as derogatory or disrespectful. In fact, as I grow older, I have never been more proud of the use of the nickname.

Compared to the almost comical use and implementation of the nickname "the Fighting Irish", I see the use of the Sioux name as a portrayal of courage, bravery, and endurance. I may be seeing the romantic view of Native Americans as no-nonsense people who did what they had to do to survive in a raw land and time. Compare that to the many luxuries available today, I still see the people of this region (regardless of ethnicity) as a no-nonsense people, going through life day by day, doing what it takes to survive or even thrive. It takes a certain character to live here, and I am proud of that. As proud as I am that UND uses the name of the Sioux, which I believe emodies that depiction. I believe it is done in honor and respect, not out of belittlement. It is done in the same way that a parent names his or her child after him or herself, or any relative for that matter. It is done to continue a legacy of pride, out of loyalty to a person's heritage.

No, this probably isn't a reason not to use the nickname, but it's my reason to use it.

[GrahamKracker]

UND vs you?  You don't feel that UND honors you by using the Sioux name for their sports teams.  How do you feel about UND honoring the Native American population with the InMed program, or the Nursing program for Native Americans, etc.  I don't get honored by UND in that way, I don't get honored by the federal government with programs aimed at righting wrongs done to "my people" throughtout the history of this country, no one is giving me back land that was taken away because of government greed, I don't get a monthly stipend because of governement guilt.  Believe me, MY PEOPLE have been unjustly treated throught the history of this nation as well.  AND DON'T you dare assume that I think the special treatment YOU get is wrong.  But I think you have bigger issues to spend your energy on than in UND calling their sports teams the Fighting Sioux.  I see the honor, respect that is bestowed by UND when using the name Sioux.  You don't.  Doesn't make it wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, people, before you waste my time, do your research.

1. This University does not contribute to the INMED, RAIN, INPSYD, or similar programs. Rather, these programs PAY the University to be here on campus. We are currently working on having these programs transferred to other universities throughout the region if UND does not change the name, so be on the lookout for that. There are only 2 Indian programs on campus that are paid for by this state the other 28 have to pay to be on this campus.

2. Land? What kind of land did you lose? What kind of treaties were written with your people that were broken? Can you shoot me a copy of them? Thanks!

3. Stipends? Free Money? Where? I don't get squat for being here. I don't go to school for free, I don't park for free, I don't get free supplies or computers, and I don't eat for free. Come to think of it, I don't know of any natives who get these "free" priviledges.

4. If this is what you consider honor, then I don't want it. This is like bonking some hottie over the head, taking her home, and telling her that you are going to honor her by marrying her. Do you think she considers it an honor? Maybe you consider this honor, but I don't. hetche to

[GrahamKracker]

My question is: Are UND as well as REA and FS-supporters doing anything other than honoring the Sioux people??

Why does UND using 'Fighting Sioux' as it's nickname for athletic teams get your undies in a bunch? Plausible answers only please!

I get the feeling that were someone to drop several million $ in your lap you'd somehow find a way to bitch about that too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its a Sioux thing, you wouldn't understand. If you can be bought, then I can't explain values to you, sorry. I'm not bitching, I'm only conveying the message that a majority of the Sioux Tribes have, and that is "UND, change your Logo/nickname."

[GrahamKracker]

However, you have also chosen to remove yourself from some things that are open to you. I notice you self-identify consistently as "Native" (senator, AI Programs, All Nations). Do other senators self-identify as a "Norwegian Senator on Student Government", etc? Does Dr. Kupchella self-identify as (insert his demographic here, I have no idea what it is, nor do I care or believe it matters) president of UND?

Wasn't the issue that consuming alcohol near a tipi is completely inappropriate behavior (not saying it was done by people who knew that)? And the debris (cans) nearby (or was it in) was inappropriate as well. Putting it at tailgating is putting it in an environment where alcohol is consumed and the chance for a misplaced or strewn can is there as well. I would think it would be wiser to not put the tipi into such an environment if the chance for a mistake by someone unaware exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats who I am, I'm Native, there's no denying it. I can't blend into the crowd, especially here on campus. I am Lakota. I don't tell people what I am, but if they bring it up, I will tell them. I'm proud of my Lakota, sica, not like some other Indians I met that are ashamed to be who they are, including my daughter who wants nothng to with with her heritage. Of the over 400 so call "Native" students on campus, how many actually interact with the Indian community on campus? less than 1/2, and that's not b.s. But, when you are the only Native in a room of 300, primarily Caucasian, people, its hard not to differentiate yourself by anything other than skin color. And I'm proud of who I am, are you?

[iramurphy]

Thats who I am, I'm Native, there's no denying it. I can't blend into the crowd, especially here on campus. I am Lakota. I don't tell people what I am, but if they bring it up, I will tell them. I'm proud of my Lakota, sica, not like some other Indians I met that are ashamed to be who they are, including my daughter who wants nothng to with with her heritage. Of the over 400 so call "Native" students on campus, how many actually interact with the Indian community on campus? less than 1/2, and that's not b.s. But, when you are the only Native in a room of 300, primarily Caucasian, people, its hard not to differentiate yourself by anything other than skin color. And I'm proud of who I am, are you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am proud of who I am but that is based on my actions and what I do for my community and for others not because I am Irish or German. Being Native American or Irish or German is who our ancestors are and were. Be proud of who you are because of who you really are not what color your skin is or where you family came from years ago.

[The Sicatoka]

I am proud of who I am and what I have accomplished.

My ethnicity is a small portion of who I am.

My identity is established by me and my actions.

My identity is not solely tied to flesh-tones.

[The Sicatoka]

  1. This University does not contribute to the INMED, RAIN, INPSYD, or similar programs.  Rather, these programs PAY the University to be here on campus.  We are currently working on having these programs transferred to other universities throughout the region if UND does not change the name, so be on the lookout for that.  There are only 2 Indian programs on campus that are paid for by this state the other 28 have to pay to be on this campus.

With each federal program comes the responsibility to properly administer it, which means the university must hire and pay people to do the required federal paperwork and accounting. Typically, the feds allow a certain percentage of a grant's budget to be used to pay the university for the costs associated with administering a program (overhead).

It's true that UND does not "pay" for these federal programs. But these programs wouldn't be on campus without the institutional support that the programs receive from the University in the form of lab space, office space and equipment. One of the keys to being approved for a federal grant is the ability to prove that the university has the facilities to house the proposed program and the administrative capability to support it.

I assume this is what you mean when you say the programs pay the university to be on campus. Yes, they do pay because UND doesn't have a pot of gold sitting around that it can dip into to cover the increased administrative costs that come with federal programs. This is standard operating procedure with federal grants, and it's no different with federal grants for Indian-related programs than it is with grants from DOE, EPA and NIH.

So which universities in the state could take on INMED, RAIN and INBRE, programs that are here because the School of Medicine is here? I'm sure other programs are on the UND campus because they're closely associated with one of the university's academic areas.

More importantly, they're here because one or more people on the UND faculty or staff made the commitment and effort to bring the programs to UND. If other universities in the state are so big on administering these programs, why haven't they applied for the grants? Or could it be that they don't have the academic qualifications, the institutional commitment or the administrative support that UND possesses?

If your numbers are correct, 2 are paid for by UND, but UND provides the infrastructure and effort and will to support all 30.

[dagies]

A co-worker of mine is one-half Yankton Sioux. She spent part of her youth on a reservation in SD. Her mother is full Sioux.

She is someone I respect a lot so when I found out her ancestry I inquired to her feelings on the nickname issue. She absolutely has no issues with Native American nicknames, even including "Redskins". She indicated her mother couldn't care less either.

My personal experiences with Native Americans supporting the nickname are far outweighing my personal experience with Native Americans who oppose (2-0 if you are counting).

[ESPNInsider]

(2-0 if you are counting).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm scoring at home, just like when I sit and watch SportCenter and score baseball highlights.