Summit League post season tourney format

[jdub27]

Also for reference, when UND hosted the WBB Big Sky championship, they drew 1404 in the semis and 1937 in the finals. Hardly a full house.
Attendance for the NDSU game that year was 2261. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

4 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Since you asked....here's some actual numbers.

Highest attendance for each school this season:
NDSU - 3867 (vs UND)
UND - 2458 (vs NDSU)
Omaha - 4316 (sponsored game, 1100 higher than second highest)
Denver - 1335
UMKC - 1532
WIU - 1681
UST - 2013
SDSU - 4421
USD - 4605 (vs SDSU)
ORU - 8012

Here's what your hypothetical matchups drew during the regular season:
NDSU v Omaha attendance 6k Regular season - 1805
St Thomas v UND attendance 2k (new 5k arena coming in St Paul soon) Regular season - 985
Western Illinois v Denver attendance 5k Regular season - 508
South Dakota v KC attendance 6k Regular season - 2080
Your estimate: 19K       Regular season comps: 5378    

Then....
Western Illinois v Omaha attendance 5k Regular season - 353
South Dakota v North Dakota attendance 6k Regular season - 2416
Your estimate: 11K       Regular season comps: 2769    

Then...
Oral Roberts v Omaha attendance 11k Regular season - 7846(only holds ~8800)
South Dakota State v North Dakota attendance 5k? Regular season - 1744
Your estimate: 16K       Regular season comps: 9590   

Then...
Oral Roberts v North Dakota attendance 11k Regular season - 7492

Your estimates: 57,000           Comparable regular season matchups: 25,229

Even if you take the best attendance from each venue (most of which were rivalry games or hosting ORU), you're still well short of 40,000 attendance.
And you estimate 11,000 for ORU when their arena holds over 2,000 less than that. Based on realistic fan support, especially when visiting teams are going to be traveling on short notice, I'm seeing a hard time being above 30-35,000 in a best case scenario. And it is only getting that high because ORU was pushing 8,000 a game in a historic season and nowhere else is going to get anywhere near that.

The men drew 30k not 40k

So you are using REGULAR season attendance figures (didn't look em up but how many of those games were on a Thursday eve?) instead of factoring in POST SEASON loser go home games on the weekend?

So even if you halve my numbers across the board you would still get .....30K

[SIOUXFAN97]

4 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Also for reference, when UND hosted the WBB Big Sky championship, they drew 1404 in the semis and 1937 in the finals. Hardly a full house.
Attendance for the NDSU game that year was 2261. 

i'll take 2k in a 3k arena versus 4k in a 12 or 15k arena any day

[NewUndFan]

I think the voters have spoken.   That was a land slide vote.  

[SIOUXFAN97]

2 minutes ago, NewUndFan said:

I think the voters have spoken.   That was a land slide vote.  

True...but if the Summit League waits too long to figure out that a 5 day tourney in Sioux Falls, SD isn't the greatest way to crowning a post season champ the commish might have the Presidents of Augie and SCSU on lines 2 and 3...just saying.

[jdub27]

56 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

The men drew 30k not 40k

So you are using REGULAR season attendance figures (didn't look em up but how many of those games were on a Thursday eve?) instead of factoring in POST SEASON loser go home games on the weekend?

So even if you halve my numbers across the board you would still get .....30K

I used the literal highest attendance each team had in the first part. Almost all were well above average being a rivarly or sponsored game (or hosting a historic ORU team). So those numbers were already inflated.

In the second part, the numbers were inflated by ORU hosting a pair of games and them having a historic season where their home crowds were huge. Go back a year, when they were still pretty good, and the numbers were 2-3,000 less.

Having it at an neutral site guarantees ticket sales and revenue for the conference. Go to home site guarantees nothing, including additional fans showing up because, here is where you missed my point:

 

55 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

i'll take 2k in a 3k arena versus 4k in a 12 or 15k arena any day

"factoring in POST SEASON loser go home games on the weekend".....well, I pointed out that in the case that actually happened on UND campus, there was not a significant bump. In fact it was lower than at least one of the regular season games (don't care to check the rest because the point stands, no noticeable bump). 

[SIOUXFAN97]

4 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I used the literal highest attendance each team had in the first part. Almost all were well above average being a rivarly or sponsored game (or hosting a historic ORU team). So those numbers were already inflated.

In the second part, the numbers were inflated by ORU hosting a pair of games and them having a historic season where their home crowds were huge. Go back a year, when they were still pretty good, and the numbers were 2-3,000 less.

Having it at an neutral site guarantees ticket sales and revenue for the conference. Go to home site guarantees nothing, including additional fans showing up because, here is where you missed my point:

 

"factoring in POST SEASON loser go home games on the weekend".....well, I pointed out that in the case that actually happened on UND campus, there was not a significant bump. In fact it was lower than at least one of the regular season games (don't care to check the rest because the point stands, no noticeable bump). 

ok so let's go game by game...over under then....my votes in the paras..gimme yours?

round 1

ndsu v omaha in fargo.....3k (over)

st thomas v und in st paul.....1k (over)

western illinois v denver in macomb....3k (under)

south dakota v kc in vermillion.....3k  (over)

round 2

western illinois v omaha in macomb...3k (under)

south dakota v north dakota in vermillion....3k (over)

semi's

oral roberts v omaha in tulsa.....4k (over)

south dakota state v und in tulsa....3k (over)

final

oral roberts v und in tulsa.....4k (over)

 

that's 27k...with about 15k or more in the overs in my estimations especially if oral used the BOK for the last two games...42k

 

[jdub27]

7 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

ok so let's go game by game...over under then....my votes in the paras..gimme yours?

round 1

ndsu v omaha in fargo.....3k (over)

st thomas v und in st paul.....1k (over)

western illinois v denver in macomb....3k (under)

south dakota v kc in vermillion.....3k  (over)

round 2

western illinois v omaha in macomb...3k (under)

south dakota v north dakota in vermillion....3k (over)

semi's

oral roberts v omaha in tulsa.....4k (over)

south dakota state v und in tulsa....3k (over)

final

oral roberts v und in tulsa.....4k (over)

 

that's 27k...with about 15k or more in the overs in my estimations especially if oral used the BOK for the last two games...42k

No clue what to estimate. Nothing says that attendance is actually going to increase significantly. It didn't for UND when they played in the semis and finals at home the year they made it to the big dance.
Do your numbers look realistic? Sure. But at what travel cost and and at least an extra weekend added onto the season? Omaha has to go to Fargo then Macomb and play on Thursday/Saturday? UND goes to St. Paul then Vermillion? And refs. Plus the lack of TV availability at some locations. 

Short-term planning is a pain and not cheap. Even if you sell a similar amount of tickets, you're going to lose additional money, especially without a "host city" covering a bunch of costs.

[SIOUXFAN97]

7 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

No clue what to estimate. Nothing says that attendance is actually going to increase significantly. It didn't for UND when they played in the semis and finals at home the year they made it to the big dance.
Do your numbers look realistic? Sure. But at what travel cost and and at least an extra weekend added onto the season? Omaha has to go to Fargo then Macomb and play on Thursday/Saturday? UND goes to St. Paul then Vermillion? And refs. Plus the lack of TV availability at some locations. 

Short-term planning is a pain and not cheap. Even if you sell a similar amount of tickets, you're going to lose additional money, especially without a "host city" covering a bunch of costs.

that was women's....we're talking men's

if a venue can't put on a good tv product then ban them from hosting these games until they invest in the arena(s)

each host city can have a sponsor....maybe 5 smalls is greater than 1 big (sanford)....

after showing that on campus sites MIGHT have higher attenance...now it's the extra costs of travel and sponsors...the goal posts keep moving

[ND-fan]

I think having the conference tournament always in Sioux Falls from point of fairness is never going make a conference  membership that has love for the conference. Yes it played in front of big audience and makes extra money for the teams but if you are not one of the South Dakota schools it results in loss where you could have went to the tournament these positives don’t offset your chance to go the dance. This doesn’t even mention it helps these schools advantage recruiting for players. I also think it goes in recruiting players and retaining players in the conference. I also believe it has effect on coaches tenure for all conference teams but for different reasons. We have seen this with Und hockey and is the reason they no longer allow us host a tournament it was perceived too big of advantage for us. Even now with us getting around this using Fargo this year but  the NCAA bringing in higher rank team and if they get upset this year your going to see change about location of the regional tourament. 
 

[SIOUXFAN97]

2 hours ago, jdub27 said:

No clue what to estimate. Nothing says that attendance is actually going to increase significantly. It didn't for UND when they played in the semis and finals at home the year they made it to the big dance.
Do your numbers look realistic? Sure. But at what travel cost and and at least an extra weekend added onto the season? Omaha has to go to Fargo then Macomb and play on Thursday/Saturday? UND goes to St. Paul then Vermillion? And refs. Plus the lack of TV availability at some locations. 

Short-term planning is a pain and not cheap. Even if you sell a similar amount of tickets, you're going to lose additional money, especially without a "host city" covering a bunch of costs.

they do have a full travel day to get there..sleep in a hotel...play next eve....OR ...the top 2 seeds get those byes to the semi's but seeds 3 and 4 get to host a 2 game 4 team tourney on campus so those game could be friday/saturday to cut down on time on the road? incentives finishing in the top 4 i guess....

so ndsu would've hosted 4 teams and st thomas hosted 4 teams....oral and sdsu byes

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

that was women's....we're talking men's

if a venue can't put on a good tv product then ban them from hosting these games until they invest in the arena(s)

each host city can have a sponsor....maybe 5 smalls is greater than 1 big (sanford)....

after showing that on campus sites MIGHT have higher attenance...now it's the extra costs of travel and sponsors...the goal posts keep moving

It's both plus some. There are multiple issues to changing a thing that a very small amount of people have an issue with. Seems like creating answers for a problem that really doesn't exis to most.

Making up hypothetical attendance numbers doesn't answer or mitigate possible problems. Until there's an actual reason to change, it isn't going to.

[SWSiouxMN]

I think it would be more likely that the format of the tournament would change instead of its location

[The Sicatoka]

Looks like the freshman of the year is in the portal. It's not a UND/Sather thing I guess. 

 

[HoopsFan03]

1 minute ago, The Sicatoka said:

Looks like the freshman of the year is in the portal. It's not a UND/Sather thing I guess. 

 

Eh, more like he is currently on a team that isn't eligible to make the NCAA tourney and he has the ability to go to a P6 conference team. Would make no sense for him to stay at St. Thomas

[Kab]

With the tourney in Sioux Falls fans are buying tickets in advance for all sessions

with campus locations that won’t happen

I'm sure there is a difference between attendance and tickets sold throughout the tourney.

‘Games in GF still wouldn’t be close to a sellout unless it was against ndsu.

also if hockey is playing at home the same time, attendance may suffer for BB

also it’s in March when weather can be a factor, if in Sioux Falls at least the teams should be in town 

i don’t think it’s broken so why look for a problem 

[jdub27]

26 minutes ago, HoopsFan03 said:

Eh, more like he is currently on a team that isn't eligible to make the NCAA tourney and he has the ability to go to a P6 conference team. Would make no sense for him to stay at St. Thomas

He did choose to go there over other offers out of high school.
He's one that will actually improve his situation making that decision.  

[fightingsioux4life]

28 minutes ago, HoopsFan03 said:

Eh, more like he is currently on a team that isn't eligible to make the NCAA tourney and he has the ability to go to a P6 conference team. Would make no sense for him to stay at St. Thomas

Or maybe St. Thomas has an academic program he likes. Or maybe he likes the school. Lots of factors go into someone's choice of a college.

[GoodGood]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Looks like the freshman of the year is in the portal. It's not a UND/Sather thing I guess. 

 

It was pretty well know around Christmas that Rohde would be transferring. He essentially used St Thomas as a JUCO to get the high major looks he thought he deserved coming out of high school