Coach Jones?

[darell1976]

Which is why next year should/will be the make or break year for Jones next contract. They only lose 2 rotation players next year (Nash and Antwi). Bring in Seales, Geno will play, Shanks and Cashman get full off-season in program. I think Hooker is going to have a monster offseason. Extra practices and scrimmages for a team that will return 4 with starting experience. We should not have the personnel issues. But.....no excuses. They need to return to the top of the conference and they need to have non conference success to. A 20 win season and top 3 finish in the Sky can really help his case. Winning the Sky doesnt hurt either. We cant keep the .500 trend going. They will have the talent next year, got to do something with it. If they struggle again, make the change.

What you are asking of Jones next year should be priority every year. If other Dakota teams can meet these goals UND should be right with them.

[SWSiouxMN]

What you are asking of Jones next year should be priority every year. If other Dakota teams can meet these goals UND should be right with them.

And I agree. Its what I expect. Just like bin, there should be no excuse why UND cant consistently be in the mix with Weber and Montana for league supremacy.

I also dont want to be relegated to a play in game or 16 seed if we make NCAAs. I want to be Cinderella and pull upsets

[fightingsioux4life]

And I agree. Its what I expect. Just like bin, there should be no excuse why UND cant consistently be in the mix with Weber and Montana for league supremacy.

I also dont want to be relegated to a play in game or 16 seed if we make NCAAs. I want to be Cinderella and pull upsets

I am with you and darell1976 on this.  But some people on this forum will tell you that this just isn't possible because there isn't a money tree planted outside Faison's office.

[ArtVandalay]

Which is why next year should/will be the make or break year for Jones next contract. They only lose 2 rotation players next year (Nash and Antwi). Bring in Seales, Geno will play, Shanks and Cashman get full off-season in program. I think Hooker is going to have a monster offseason. Extra practices and scrimmages for a team that will return 4 with starting experience. We should not have the personnel issues. But.....no excuses. They need to return to the top of the conference and they need to have non conference success to. A 20 win season and top 3 finish in the Sky can really help his case. Winning the Sky doesnt hurt either. We cant keep the .500 trend going. They will have the talent next year, got to do something with it. If they struggle again, make the change.

If we would have gone 12-6 in league this year. The best case scenario is an overall record of 19-10. This is winning all non-money games. In other words, losing only to UNI, Marquette, minny, and Utah. That record would give top 3 finish but not 20 wins. There is a reason why low major 16 seeds in ncaa tourney usually have close to .500 records. They face the same challenges we do with non conference schedule. This is just reality. Before you come back with the "wow, so this is what it has come to. This is where we are setting the bar now" comments. The answer to that is well, yes. That is the reality. A reasonable expectation would be top 3 position with overall record of well, you guessed it right around .500. 16-14, 17-13. This is realistic for a low major that doesn't get to play any non-Dakota D1 schools at home. None. Zero, nada. This year has sucked. No question. A lot of close losses. Doesn't matter - they are losses. But to set goofy expectations for the following year without gut checking the reality is just not well thought out.

[SWSiouxMN]

If we would have gone 12-6 in league this year. The best case scenario is an overall record of 19-10. This is winning all non-money games. In other words, losing only to UNI, Marquette, minny, and Utah. That record would give top 3 finish but not 20 wins. There is a reason why low major 16 seeds in ncaa tourney usually have close to .500 records. They face the same challenges we do with non conference schedule. This is just reality. Before you come back with the "wow, so this is what it has come to. This is where we are setting the bar now" comments. The answer to that is well, yes. That is the reality. A reasonable expectation would be top 3 position with overall record of well, you guessed it right around .500. 16-14, 17-13. This is realistic for a low major that doesn't get to play any non-Dakota D1 schools at home. None. Zero, nada. This year has sucked. No question. A lot of close losses. Doesn't matter - they are losses. But to set goofy expectations for the following year without gut checking the reality is just not well thought out.

If we had THAT record this year then this thread would be dead.

Throw 2-3 big sky tourney wins to and its not that goofy to get to 20.

Also. We played 12 non-conference games. So in your example it would be 20-10.

[darell1976]

If we would have gone 12-6 in league this year. The best case scenario is an overall record of 19-10. This is winning all non-money games. In other words, losing only to UNI, Marquette, minny, and Utah. That record would give top 3 finish but not 20 wins. There is a reason why low major 16 seeds in ncaa tourney usually have close to .500 records. They face the same challenges we do with non conference schedule. This is just reality. Before you come back with the "wow, so this is what it has come to. This is where we are setting the bar now" comments. The answer to that is well, yes. That is the reality. A reasonable expectation would be top 3 position with overall record of well, you guessed it right around .500. 16-14, 17-13. This is realistic for a low major that doesn't get to play any non-Dakota D1 schools at home. None. Zero, nada. This year has sucked. No question. A lot of close losses. Doesn't matter - they are losses. But to set goofy expectations for the following year without gut checking the reality is just not well thought out.

I know some people don't like to bring up NDSU as a comparison, but it seems they have no problem getting to 20 wins and it's not just because of SL play it's because they can win OOC games both home and away along with money games (ex Notre Dame). Why can't we do that......BRIAN JONES.

[ArtVandalay]

If we had THAT record this year then this thread would be dead.

Throw 2-3 big sky tourney wins to and its not that goofy to get to 20.

Also. We played 12 non-conference games. So in your example it would be 20-10.

That's what we had last year. When did this thread start?

[Oxbow6]

Where is the signature win in 9 years w Jones as HC? All I have seen is pissing away "W"s like these past 2 home games in most of his 9 years. If Jones is an acceptable standard for a HC of a D1 MBB program..................

[UND-FB-FAN]

If we would have gone 12-6 in league this year. The best case scenario is an overall record of 19-10. This is winning all non-money games. In other words, losing only to UNI, Marquette, minny, and Utah. That record would give top 3 finish but not 20 wins. There is a reason why low major 16 seeds in ncaa tourney usually have close to .500 records. They face the same challenges we do with non conference schedule. This is just reality. Before you come back with the "wow, so this is what it has come to. This is where we are setting the bar now" comments. The answer to that is well, yes. That is the reality. A reasonable expectation would be top 3 position with overall record of well, you guessed it right around .500. 16-14, 17-13. This is realistic for a low major that doesn't get to play any non-Dakota D1 schools at home. None. Zero, nada. This year has sucked. No question. A lot of close losses. Doesn't matter - they are losses. But to set goofy expectations for the following year without gut checking the reality is just not well thought out.

Excuses. Excuses. Excuses.

UND has suffered so many unnecessary blowout loses over the years, it should be appalling, even to apologists like yourself. Trying the same thing over and over again and yet expecting different results; it is quite insane. A change needs to be made.

Blowout loses (+15 pt differential):

2013-2014 ("the senior-loaded team")

18 pt loss to Wisconsin (30-8) @ Wisconsin

27 pt loss to Cal Poly (14-20) on neutral floor

15 pt loss to Oregon (24-10) @ Oregon

17 pt loss to Pacific (18-16) on neutral floor

15 pt loss to Butler (15-17) @ Butler

18 pt loss to Northern Colorado (18-14) @ N. Col

21 pt loss to Weber State (19-12) @ Weber State

16 pt loss to Omaha (17-15) @ Omaha

At least 5 more potential wins that instead ended in a blowout.

2014-2015 ("the rebuilding season")

37 pt loss to Utah (20-4) @ Utah

18 pt loss to Texas Pan Amr. (9-17) on neu. floor

36 pt loss to Minnesota (16-10) @ Minnesota

29 pt loss to NDSU (18-8) @ Fargo

22 pt loss to Eastern Washington (19-6) @ EWU

25 pt loss to Northern Arizona (13-12) @ NAU

Actually not as bad as the benchmark 2013-2014 squad, but still a few winnable games that ended in disaster. More tight games that have ended in heartbreak this season.

As one can see, over just the past couple seasons, there have been several winnable games (going by program stature and record) that UND has absolutely missed on and lost considerably. This set of scores doesn't even include close (less than 10 or 5 pt differential) loses that are perhaps even more frustrating. There's something at play here (the constant) that needs to be changed or else the lack of consistency will continue.

[jdub27]

What you are asking of Jones next year should be priority every year. If other Dakota teams can meet these goals UND should be right with them.

Of course that is what everyone wants.  All of these schools had dips around their transition, but not sure how you can claim that the other Dakota schools were meeting these goals when they were where UND was. 

 

1st 3 years out of transition

Regular season finishes:

NDSU: 1st, 6th, 7th

SDSU: 7th, 4th, 5th

USD: 7th, 5th, TBD (currently 5th)

UND: 3rd, 2nd, TBD (currently 9th)

 

Conference tournament results:

NDSU: Win, 1st round loss, 1st round loss

SDSU: Lost in Semis, 1st round loss, Lost in Semis

USD: 1st round loss, 1st round loss, TBD

UND: Lost in Semis, Lost in Finals, TBD

 

Conference record:

NDSU: 32-22 (16-2 followed by 8-10 and 8-10)

SDSU: 27-27 (7-11 followed by 10-8 and 10-8)

USD: 18-25 (5-11 followed by 6-8, currently at 7-6 this year)

UND: 28-25 (12-8 followed by 12-8, currently at 4-9 this year)

 

Total yearly wins overall:

NDSU: 26, 11, 14

SDSU: 13, 14, 19

USD: 10, 12, 13*

UND: 16, 17, 8*

*in process

 

 

As for consistent 20 win seasons, NDSU did it their first, fifth and sixth year and SDSU did it their fourth and fifth year. 

[ArtVandalay]

Of course that is what everyone wants. All of these schools had dips around their transition, but not sure how you can claim that the other Dakota schools were meeting these goals when they were where UND was.

1st 3 years out of transition

Regular season finishes:

NDSU: 1st, 6th, 7th

SDSU: 7th, 4th, 5th

USD: 7th, 5th, TBD (currently 5th)

UND: 3rd, 2nd, TBD (currently 9th)

Conference tournament results:

NDSU: Win, 1st round loss, 1st round loss

SDSU: Lost in Semis, 1st round loss, Lost in Semis

USD: 1st round loss, 1st round loss, TBD

UND: Lost in Semis, Lost in Finals, TBD

Conference record:

NDSU: 32-22 (16-2 followed by 8-10 and 8-10)

SDSU: 27-27 (7-11 followed by 10-8 and 10-8)

USD: 18-25 (5-11 followed by 6-8, currently at 7-6 this year)

UND: 28-25 (12-8 followed by 12-8, currently at 4-9 this year)

Total yearly wins overall:

NDSU: 26, 11, 14

SDSU: 13, 14, 19

USD: 10, 12, 13*

UND: 16, 17, 8*

*in process

As for consistent 20 win seasons, NDSU did it their first, fifth and sixth year and SDSU did it their fourth and fifth year.

This data set is called benchmarking. Not data in a vacuum. Well done. Make sure your stock broker does the same.

[darell1976]

Of course that is what everyone wants.  All of these schools had dips around their transition, but not sure how you can claim that the other Dakota schools were meeting these goals when they were where UND was. 

 

1st 3 years out of transition

Regular season finishes:

NDSU: 1st, 6th, 7th

SDSU: 7th, 4th, 5th

USD: 7th, 5th, TBD (currently 5th)

UND: 3rd, 2nd, TBD (currently 9th)

 

Conference tournament results:

NDSU: Win, 1st round loss, 1st round loss

SDSU: Lost in Semis, 1st round loss, Lost in Semis

USD: 1st round loss, 1st round loss, TBD

UND: Lost in Semis, Lost in Finals, TBD

 

Conference record:

NDSU: 32-22 (16-2 followed by 8-10 and 8-10)

SDSU: 27-27 (7-11 followed by 10-8 and 10-8)

USD: 18-25 (5-11 followed by 6-8, currently at 7-6 this year)

UND: 28-25 (12-8 followed by 12-8, currently at 4-9 this year)

 

Total yearly wins overall:

NDSU: 26, 11, 14

SDSU: 13, 14, 19

USD: 10, 12, 13*

UND: 16, 17, 8*

*in process

 

 

As for consistent 20 win seasons, NDSU did it their first, fifth and sixth year and SDSU did it their fourth and fifth year. 

OOC wins (including regular season tournaments:

NDSU: 7, 3, 6   Total 16  (6 non DI wins)

SDSU: 5, 4, 8   Total 17 (6 non DI wins)

USD:  5, 6, 6 (with one left)   Total as of now 17  (6 non DI wins, 7 if they win tonight)

UND:  3, 3, 4 (with one left) Total as of now 10

 

6 of the 10 UND wins were non DI teams.

[darell1976]

That's what we had last year. When did this thread start?

Jan 17, 2014

[Old Time Hockey]

Not trying to stir the pot, just an honest question.....

When was the last time the men's BB program made the NCAA playoffs (DIV 1 or 2)?

[jdub27]

OOC wins (including regular season tournaments:

NDSU: 7, 3, 6   Total 16

SDSU: 5, 4, 8   Total 17

USD:  5, 6, 6 (with one left)   Total as of now 17

UND:  3, 3, 4 (with one left) Total as of now 10

 

6 of the 10 UND wins were non DI teams.

 

1)UND plays two more conference games then the other 3 schools, meaning two less chances for a win per year.

2)UND has been taking more money games and playing OOC games on the road to help fund their trip to Italy this summer.  For example, UND has 1 OOC D-1 game this year and 2 sub D-1 games at home.  USD has 4 (though one was played at Sioux Falls) plus another 2 sub D-1 games.

3)Now you're moving the goalposts.  You already brought up 20 win seasons, not sure why OOC wins is now a separate thing.  No one has argued a single time that UND's OOC record isn't disappointing.  They have lost at least a handful they should have won and a couple of them in embarrassing fashion.

[darell1976]

Not trying to stir the pot, just an honest question.....

When was the last time the men's BB program made the NCAA playoffs (DIV 1 or 2)?

Regional Quarterfinals 2003 lost to St. Cloud State

 

Elite 8 1991

Final Four 1990 

[Old Time Hockey]

Regional Quarterfinals 2003 lost to St. Cloud State

 

Elite 8 1991

Final Four 1990

Ouch! Thought it was something like that. Looks like Jones was another great hire to get us through the transition.

Does Mussman=Jones?

[nodakhoops]

Of course that is what everyone wants.  All of these schools had dips around their transition, but not sure how you can claim that the other Dakota schools were meeting these goals when they were where UND was. 

 

1st 3 years out of transition

Regular season finishes:

NDSU: 1st, 6th, 7th

SDSU: 7th, 4th, 5th

USD: 7th, 5th, TBD (currently 5th)

UND: 3rd, 2nd, TBD (currently 9th)

 

Conference tournament results:

NDSU: Win, 1st round loss, 1st round loss

SDSU: Lost in Semis, 1st round loss, Lost in Semis

USD: 1st round loss, 1st round loss, TBD

UND: Lost in Semis, Lost in Finals, TBD

 

Conference record:

NDSU: 32-22 (16-2 followed by 8-10 and 8-10)

SDSU: 27-27 (7-11 followed by 10-8 and 10-8)

USD: 18-25 (5-11 followed by 6-8, currently at 7-6 this year)

UND: 28-25 (12-8 followed by 12-8, currently at 4-9 this year)

 

Total yearly wins overall:

NDSU: 26, 11, 14

SDSU: 13, 14, 19

USD: 10, 12, 13*

UND: 16, 17, 8*

*in process

 

 

As for consistent 20 win seasons, NDSU did it their first, fifth and sixth year and SDSU did it their fourth and fifth year. 

 

Thanks for bringing facts to this discussion. Was going to say, now it's time for Darrell to bring up OOC games, D1 road games, Signature Wins, butNDSU, you probably wanted to keep Mussman, etc., but I see that already happened. 

[UND92,96]

With regard to the non-conference schedule, we seem to play the xDSU's every year, with both being on the same rotation, so that they are either both at home or both on the road in any given year. Ideally, it would be nice to have the opposite rotation with USD and UNO, so that every year we know there will be at least two non-conference home games against division I opponents.

[darell1976]

1)UND plays two more conference games then the other 3 schools, meaning two less chances for a win

2)UND has been taking more money games and playing OOC games on the road to help fund their trip to Italy this summer.  For example, UND has 1 OOC D-1 game this year and 2 sub D-1 games at home.  USD has 4 (though one was played at Sioux Falls) plus another 2 sub D-1 games.

3)Now you're moving the goalposts on your original claim.  No one has argued a single time that UND's OOC record isn't disappointing.  They have lost quite a few they should have won and a couple of them in embarrassing fashion.

NDSU OOC road records: 3-4, 1-3, 2-4  Total 6-11  (17 games)

SDSU OOC road records: 2-7, 1-6, 3-2  Total  6-15  ( 21 games)

USD  OOC road records: 2-7, 1-7, 4-5   Total 7-19  (26 games)

UND OOC road records:  0-6, 0-6, 2-7  Total 2-19  (21 games)    

 

Records include regular season tournaments.

[darell1976]

Ouch! Thought it was something like that. Looks like Jones was another great hire to get us through the transition.

Does Mussman=Jones?

Yes 

[darell1976]

With regard to the non-conference schedule, we seem to play the xDSU's every year, with both being on the same rotation, so that they are either both at home or both on the road in any given year. Ideally, it would be nice to have the opposite rotation with USD and UNO, so that every year we know there will be at least two non-conference home games against division I opponents.

UND plays roughly 10-11 OOC games, if they can have a schedule that looks like this, that would be great.

 

UND at NDSU

UND vs SDSU

UND at USD

UND vs Omaha

UND vs Denver

UND at Minnesota

UND vs UNI

UND at Nebraska

UND at Wisconsin

UND vs Creighton

 

Not only would they get a taste of the Big 10, but it could cut traveling down greatly.

[darell1976]

Thanks for bringing facts to this discussion. Was going to say, now it's time for Darrell to bring up OOC games, D1 road games, Signature Wins, butNDSU, you probably wanted to keep Mussman, etc., but I see that already happened. 

So no one brings facts to the table? I would say other people including myself bring plenty.

[homer]

With regard to the non-conference schedule, we seem to play the xDSU's every year, with both being on the same rotation, so that they are either both at home or both on the road in any given year. Ideally, it would be nice to have the opposite rotation with USD and UNO, so that every year we know there will be at least two non-conference home games against division I opponents.

 

How about Denver?  I don't understand how the hockey relationship can't be used for getting together for a basketball matchup.

[jdub27]

NDSU OOC road records: 3-4, 1-3, 2-4  Total 6-11  (17 games)

SDSU OOC road records: 2-7, 1-6, 3-2  Total  6-15  ( 21 games)

USD  OOC road records: 2-7, 1-7, 4-5   Total 7-19  (26 games)

UND OOC road records:  0-6, 0-6, 2-7  Total 2-19  (21 games)    

 

Records include regular season tournaments.

 

Again, no one is excited about or defending these results, but you keep on moving the goal posts further and further away from your original argument until you think you have found something.  These results are already taken into account on your 20 win season goal.  I'm more concerned about how they do away from home at the conference tournament. 

 

By the way, NDSU was 1-4 their 2nd year and USD was 1-8 their 2nd year (counting OOC game in Rapid City) and is 3-7 this year (counting OOC game in Sioux Falls).