Coach Jones?

[jdub27]

10 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Faison didn't want anything to do with coaching changes until the program was in the hole. Any glimpses of hope and is an automatic extension from Faison. (see Muss and Brewster) Chaves has to see basketball as a major problem with lack of success and needs to be addressed both men's and women's.

Yeah, just a bit more complex than that but sounds a lot better when you just put it out like that right?

The beginning of this year is turning out as expected when you unexpectedly lose a conference of the year type player a year early to grad transfer, your second best player has to sit out the first semester and you are trying to figure out a rotation with 11 guys who have never played a minute of D1 basketball.

Other than a year or two, it seems like it is always something (conference, nickname, injuries, grad transfers, etc). Bad luck, coaching or a combination of that plus other things out of anyone's control, I'm not sure what the main issue is. Jones has 2 1/2 years left on his contract, he'll finish out this year and have an incredibly young team coming back next year that will have gained some valuable experience. Will be prove it time or it's likely someone will get to inherit a pretty veteran team.

[UND-FB-FAN]

37 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Yeah, just a bit more complex than that but sounds a lot better when you just put it out like that right?

The beginning of this year is turning out as expected when you unexpectedly lose a conference of the year type player a year early to grad transfer, your second best player has to sit out the first semester and you are trying to figure out a rotation with 11 guys who have never played a minute of D1 basketball.

Other than a year or two, it seems like it is always something (conference, nickname, injuries, grad transfers, etc). Bad luck, coaching or a combination of that plus other things out of anyone's control, I'm not sure what the main issue is. Jones has 2 1/2 years left on his contract, he'll finish out this year and have an incredibly young team coming back next year that will have gained some valuable experience. Will be prove it time or it's likely someone will get to inherit a pretty veteran team.

Pretty neat that UND men’s basketball gets to continue to compile losing seasons, huh? 

But of course, those pesky contract terms and “logic” always seems to get in the way. No way around that, right? 

[darell1976]

1 hour ago, jdub27 said:

Yeah, just a bit more complex than that but sounds a lot better when you just put it out like that right?

The beginning of this year is turning out as expected when you unexpectedly lose a conference of the year type player a year early to grad transfer, your second best player has to sit out the first semester and you are trying to figure out a rotation with 11 guys who have never played a minute of D1 basketball.

Other than a year or two, it seems like it is always something (conference, nickname, injuries, grad transfers, etc). Bad luck, coaching or a combination of that plus other things out of anyone's control, I'm not sure what the main issue is. Jones has 2 1/2 years left on his contract, he'll finish out this year and have an incredibly young team coming back next year that will have gained some valuable experience. Will be prove it time or it's likely someone will get to inherit a pretty veteran team.

So Berry has one and a half bad seasons and people want him gone, Bubba has 2 bad seasons and people want him gone, Jones has had almost a decade worth of bad seasons and here comes the excuses on why to keep him. I didn’t know that basketball is in line of importance with track and field and golf. 

1. Hockey

2. Football 

3. Volleyball

4. Women’s basketball

5. Soccer

6. Track

7. Men’s basketball

Sound about right?

[UND Fan]

11 hours ago, SWSiouxMN said:

What I am getting at is he never should have been put in that lame duck situation.  After the 15-16 season, Faison should have just manned up and said either "I believe in you Brian, here is a 3 year $120,000 extension." or "Brian, I think it is time we went in a different direction"  He did neither.

Any of those situations go down and UND basketball is in way better shape that it is right now.  

 

 

Jones would have been let go after the 15-16 season (should have been years earlier) but UND would have had to pay him about $100K.  This was at the time of some major budget cuts for the university and the baseball program had just been shut down.  President Schafer (although he fully agreed that the change should be made) felt that it would not be wise (financially or politically) to make the move at that time.  Faison did little to try to change Schafer's mind although I don't know if he would have been successful if he had tried.

[darell1976]

1 hour ago, Cratter said:

Just means the original poster of this thread didn't know what they were talking about.

Because this program under Jones has accomplished so much since Jan 2014. One good season = lifetime contract?

[jdub27]

13 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

Pretty neat that UND men’s basketball gets to continue to compile losing seasons, huh? 

But of course, those pesky contract terms and “logic” always seems to get in the way. No way around that, right? 

Nah, didn't say anything even close to that. But I'm also not going to pretend that contract terms and "logic" don't exist. I'm sure it's easy to pretend we're in an alternate reality where those things don't play into decisions, but in the real world, they do. Fact is, the BB program is underfunded worse than the FB program. They are playing huge guarantee games just to increase their budget, which is still lagging. Look at the turnover in assistant coaches, how is that sort of instability good for any program? Saying "the money will come from somewhere" doesn't make it actually appear. Like I said, the coach will have this season to get his team on the right track (which I think they have the talent to make some noise once they figure it out) and next season to use that talent and prove himself again. I don't see a lame duck situation this time around.

 

Just for reference on the dollar amounts we're talking (using 2016-17 numbers):

• The expense side of the MBB budget is $1.6 million with almost 25% of that being scholarships. Coaching pool (head coach plus assistants) was $357K (full disclosure, this has increased with Jones raise).
• To buy out the head coach fro the next two years, would require somewhere around $150K each for two years, which is almost 10% of the MBB budget (one could hope/assume he would get a new job to offset a portion of that, but there is no guarantee).
• On top of that, a new head coach plus assistants is going to require a significant increase in salary (for reference, Richman makes $190K, Craig Smith is at $275K and Otzelberger apparently makes $375K!!). So figure an at minimum, an additional $150K for the coaching pool just to get to a baseline
• Basically, just to do what you want, the MBB budget has to see an increase by around 20% out of thin air. 

This isn't a defense of the situation or being happy with results, it are the facts that the athletic director has to work with when making decisions. 

[jdub27]

10 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

So Berry has one and a half bad seasons and people want him gone, Bubba has 2 bad seasons and people want him gone, Jones has had almost a decade worth of bad seasons and here comes the excuses on why to keep him. I didn’t know that basketball is in line of importance with track and field and golf. 

1. Hockey

2. Football 

3. Volleyball

4. Women’s basketball

5. Soccer

6. Track

7. Men’s basketball

Sound about right?

In general, people are clueless and it's easy to have opinions (especially those hot takes) when you aren't the one responsible for writing checking and balancing budgets. If people would take time to look into realities or talk with those making decisions, they would probably understand things a bit more. That doesn't mean they are accepting poor results or complacency, it means they understand how things actually work. I'm fully on board with a new coach after the season (or a few seasons ago) and bringing in a top candidate by offering a $300K salary, but it isn't going to happen and it isn't because people don't care, it's because of realistic expectations. Not sure what else there is to say about it. 

[darell1976]

On 1/17/2014 at 8:40 AM, jdub27 said:

Disappointing and underperforming thus far in the year? Without a doubt and an understatement.

 

Fire Jones? Get real.

 

After hearing him talk at the booster luncheon last week, he's well aware of the team's shortcomings and the team is too. Guys are having to change their role and it isn't going very smoothly. The injuries they've dealt with over the last couple years have been pretty ridiculous. If anyone doesn't think that this team would be completely different with Brekke in the line-up, you didn't pay much attention to what he brought to the table.

 

I expect this team to play decent basketball the rest of the season and make the Big Sky tourney. What happens after that is on the players who put 4+ years in to getting themselves into that position. Jones' teams have historically played their best basketball at the end of the year, lets hope it continues.

This was your first post in this thread. Some opinions just don’t change and it’s not for the good.

[Oxbow6]

MBB and FB will lead the revolution of UND's athletic department due to their success and national exposure.

Just wait.................

[darell1976]

4 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

MBB and FB will lead the revolution of UND's athletic department due to success and exposure.

Just wait.................

It’s been done....about 20 years ago.

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, darell1976 said:

This was your first post in this thread. Some opinions just don’t change and it’s not for the good.

I'm not sure what your point is, it looks like I was pretty spot on with what I said. That team did exactly what I predicted, turning it around, going 12-6 from that day through the conference tournament andthen  made it to the title game, where they lost to Weber on their home court while playing without multiple starters and the first guy off the bench (Brekke, Webb and Schuler). And that's not even mentioning the guys who were dinged up and still gutting through it. So my "opinion" on what would happen the rest of that season was actually lower than their actual results.

[F'nHawks]

I dont like to play the fire the coach game.  Here's a quick look at the recent performance of MBB.  I know it doesn't cover the entire tenure of Jones, but I didn't want to go back further than 2010.  Some good mixed with some bad.  We've been in 4 conference championship games over the past 8 seasons, winning 3 of them.  I know 2 of them were Great West, but those are conference titles nonetheless. 

2010-11	19-15	Won GWC Championship
2011-12	18-15	Won GWC Championship
2012-13	16-17	Lost BSC Semis
2013-14	17-17	Lost BSC Championship
2014-15	8-22
2015-16	17-16	Lost BSC Semis
2016-17	22-10	Won BSC Championship
2017-18	12-20	Lost BSC 2nd Round

[Oxbow6]

6 minutes ago, F'nHawks said:

I dont like to play the fire the coach game.  Here's a quick look at the recent performance of MBB.  I know it doesn't cover the entire tenure of Jones, but I didn't want to go back further than 2010.  Some good mixed with some bad.  We've been in 4 conference championship games over the past 8 seasons, winning 3 of them.  I know 2 of them were Great West, but those are conference titles nonetheless. 

2010-11	19-15	Won GWC Championship
2011-12	18-15	Won GWC Championship
2012-13	16-17	Lost BSC Semis
2013-14	17-17	Lost BSC Championship
2014-15	8-22
2015-16	17-16	Lost BSC Semis
2016-17	22-10	Won BSC Championship
2017-18	12-20	Lost BSC 2nd Round

So for those keeping score at home that is an overall record of 129-132.

[darell1976]

6 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I'm not sure what your point is, it looks like I was pretty spot on with what I said. That team did exactly what I predicted, turning it around and going 12-6 from that day through the conference tournament and made it to the title game where they lost to Weber on their home court while playing without multiple starters and the first guy off the bench (Brekke, Webb and Schuler) not even mentioning the guys who were dinged up and still gutting through it.

Then they win 8 games the next season, 6 of those wins DI, because heaven forbid Jones would put together multiple successful seasons in a row without laying eggs in between. 

[jdub27]

8 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Then they win 8 games the next season, 6 of those wins DI, because heaven forbid Jones would put together multiple successful seasons in a row without laying eggs in between. 

Can you answer what my first post that you quoted has to do with that? Everyone and their mother saw a big drop-off coming after that senior class graduated.

Again, it is easy to be loud and uninformed (or not care) when you aren't the one writing the checks or responsible for making a budget work. Just because others get that and comprehend how they apply to real life situations, doesn't mean they don't want change or are complacent, they just understand reality and would rather focus their current efforts on how to make the best of the current situation until it can be changed. I'm all for bringing in a big name coach or even a rising up-and-comer (that will come with a matching salary) to consistently dominate the Summit but there are a lot of hurdles overcome to make that happen.

 

12 hours ago, SWSiouxMN said:

Faison's decision to allow Jones to be a lame duck in 2016-17 continues to haunt this program (should have cut bait or extended him after 15-16).  

Wonder if there is a program just a bit south of here who is having the same regrets right now.

[F'nHawks]

7 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

So for those keeping score at home that is an overall record of 129-132.

Is win-loss record or conference championships and postseason appearances a more indicative measurement at this level of basketballl?  It's a big deal to make the NCAA tournament for any team in a one-bid conference.  Obviously it would be ideal to play for that spot year in and year out, but that's not realistic.  I'm open to coaching change, but I'm also understanding of the ups and downs that I think inevitably come with playing at this level.  Maybe my expectations are too low...

[Oxbow6]

I think the point that many here like to emphasize is that hockey is a niche sport on the national stage and that MBB and FB will, one day, give UND athletics the national exposure it deserves.

Problem is Jones thru last season is 129-132 and Bubbas thru this past season is 30-29. Jones has one NCAA Big Dance appearance and Bubba has one FCS playoff appearance. Not sure that does much exposure wise when talking big picture and national exposure.

[UND-FB-FAN]

48 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

MBB and FB will lead the revolution of UND's athletic department due to their success and national exposure.

Just wait.................

When UND MBB and FB finally do turn the corner, UND’s popularity will skyrocket. Right now, the casual fans have been and are flocking to NDSU. The casual fans of ND and the region have greater affinity for football and basketball, anyway. Hockey is a niche sports whose fans are already in support of UND. It’s the “other fans” who UND is desperately losing during these lean years relative to NDSU. 

[darell1976]

40 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Can you answer what my first post that you quoted has to do with that? Everyone and their mother saw a big drop-off coming after that senior class graduated.

Again, it is easy to be loud and uninformed (or not care) when you aren't the one writing the checks or responsible for making a budget work. Just because others get that and comprehend how they apply to real life situations, doesn't mean they don't want change or are complacent, they just understand reality and would rather focus their current efforts on how to make the best of the current situation until it can be changed. I'm all for bringing in a big name coach or even a rising up-and-comer (that will come with a matching salary) to consistently dominate the Summit but there are a lot of hurdles overcome to make that happen.

 

Wonder if there is a program just a bit south of here who is having the same regrets right now.

Another excuse...graduation? Hakstol, Blais, Gasparini had graduating players and still had UND hockey on top, Gene Roebuck won 3 titles in a row still reloaded. Roger Thomas and Dale Lennon made the DII playoffs year after year after loosing a QB or key players and playing NDSU every year. Jones struggles to win against non conference teams on the road, he has one 20 win season since we were in the NCC. The SL is a lot tougher than the Big Sky ever was. I know money is a big part but money was tight when Muss was let go and Bubba came on. Then with the rebranding of the name and logo they hired Brad Berry and his salary isn’t a low one. I am sure they can find the money somewhere.

[petey23]

I think there is a big difference between D1 Men's Basketball and FCS Football. 

In basketball, being in a 1 bid league(1 out of 9 teams makes the tournament in the Summit), ideally you would be in the top half of the conference most seasons and have a shot of winning your conference tournament...the other  teams in the conference have the same expectations. Contrary to the belief of some the other teams in the conference don't just field teams for us to have someone to play. I am not a huge fan of Jones but he met these criteria most years in the Big Sky. As someone pointed out, Faison dropped the ball on his contract which then put us in a tough spot following the NCAA tournament year. I am torn right now because I am actually intrigued by this current team and think the next couple of years could be fun to watch. This team really misses Marlon Stewart and I think they have a shot to finish in top half of the Summit.

 

Anyone who watches FCS football realizes it doesn't take much to make the playoffs. Hell, we seem like we have been half assing it and we are still easily in the top 25% of teams in the division and 20% make the playoffs. It will be interesting to see if their are any competitive games this weekend as the field is cut from 8 to 4.

[Oxbow6]

21 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

When UND MBB and FB finally do turn the corner, UND’s popularity will skyrocket. Right now, the casual fans have been and are flocking to NDSU. The casual fans of ND and the region have greater affinity for football and basketball, anyway. Hockey is a niche sports whose fans are already in support of UND. It’s the “other fans” who UND is desperately losing during these lean years relative to NDSU. 

Let's hope.........................maybe it will happen before you and I are residing in the Shady Willow Senior Living Center in Mesa, AZ eating pudding 3 times a day and playing shuffle board in between naps.

[petey23]

10 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Another excuse...graduation? Hakstol, Blais, Gasparini had graduating players and still had UND hockey on top, Gene Roebuck won 3 titles in a row still reloaded. Roger Thomas and Dale Lennon made the DII playoffs year after year after loosing a QB or key players and playing NDSU every year. Jones struggles to win against non conference teams on the road, he has one 20 win season since we were in the NCC. The SL is a lot tougher than the Big Sky ever was. I know money is a big part but money was tight when Muss was let go and Bubba came on. Then with the rebranding of the name and logo they hired Brad Berry and his salary isn’t a low one. I am sure they can find the money somewhere.

stroke a check

[iluvdebbies]

1 minute ago, petey23 said:

stroke a check

I would be happy if he stepped up and bought a Champons Club membership.

[darell1976]

7 minutes ago, petey23 said:

stroke a check

Why haven’t you said that to all the ones who want Bubba and Berry gone? 

[darell1976]

12 minutes ago, iluvdebbies said:

I would be happy if he stepped up and bought a Champons Club membership.

I could care less about your happiness.