How Long Will It Take To Move On

[Fetch]

How about FightingSiouxuntilanew nameischosen

Or

IllhonorFightingSiouxbeforeitdied

Or

Ihonoredfightingsiouxbeforepcidiotstookitaway

?

[bigskyvikes]

When have I ever questioned your loyalty? The only person I called out for that was that letter to the Heraldo last week who said he was pulling all support for UND. You are loyal, I am loyal and a good 95% of the posters on this forum are loyal (except for the Rodent and FU trolls). But this idea that this whole issue will go away if we just remain "North Dakota" is pure wishful thinking. And the response I get for daring to say that is "When are you changing your username?" I know others have questioned your username and that is just as wrong.

All I really want is to resolve this issue and get back to the business of building a solid, across the board, Division I athletic program. Ten years of fighting this war is enough.

I want the same ending as you, to be over! Just a different way of being over.

As far as my nickname for them DH's questioning it, it don't matter. I don't remember reading rules on how to pick a name when I signed up with ss.com, and I chose my old nickname, with my favorite football team, thats how I came up with mine?

[Fetch]

Now I might resemble that DH stuff but I am a die hard Vikings fan so I guess I am a DH

[fightingsioux4life]

I want the same ending as you, to be over! Just a different way of being over.

As far as my nickname for them DH's questioning it, it don't matter. I don't remember reading rules on how to pick a name when I signed up with ss.com, and I chose my old nickname, with my favorite football team, thats how I came up with mine?

Oh, I figured your name was about our conference (Big Sky) and the Minnesota Vikings. And I think it makes sense.

[bigskyvikes]

Oh, I figured your name was about our conference (Big Sky) and the Minnesota Vikings. And I think it makes sense.

Thanks, one thing to remember about your moniker, you could sell it for top dollar on this website...?

[Sioux>Bison]

The tribes never had the rights to the logo. It was commissioned by UND. It was created by a member of a different tribe. It is a piece of art owned by the University of North Dakota and they have absolutely no reason to turn it over to anyone else.

I thought I had read something that either the university or the tribes could use the logo. It's a shame they can't give it to the tribe.

[82SiouxGuy]

I thought I had read something that either the university or the tribes could use the logo. It's a shame they can't give it to the tribe.

UND has the right to transfer or assign the logo to any Sioux tribe as a part of the Settlement Agreement. However, they would lose control of the logo. That would not be in the best interests of UND. Therefore, that option will not be used at any time soon.

[Fetch]

Could a agreement be made where say they gave it to SL & SL agreed to give say 1/2 the profits back to UND ?

[Sioux>Bison]

UND has the right to transfer or assign the logo to any Sioux tribe as a part of the Settlement Agreement. However, they would lose control of the logo. That would not be in the best interests of UND. Therefore, that option will not be used at any time soon.

I guess I'm thinking who cares if they take control of it? We can never use it again and we will be moving on so I don't see a reason to keep it when a tribe can use it. I don't see how they can abuse it since it represents their people. It can help generate extra funds for reservation programs. If UND is making me move on then maybe they should do the same?

[82SiouxGuy]

I guess I'm thinking who cares if they take control of it? We can never use it again and we will be moving on so I don't see a reason to keep it when a tribe can use it. I don't see how they can abuse it since it represents their people. It can help generate extra funds for reservation programs. If UND is making me move on then maybe they should do the same?

There are 2 parts. First, keeping the nickname out there and active would increase the number of people that continue to use the Fighting Sioux nickname and cut into the number of people that start using a new nickname. The new nickname may have a hard time becoming accepted and successful because of the competition. It could fail completely. That would not help UND in any way, and it would be a mistake for UND to help encourage that by letting the logo go. Second, people would be buying Fighting Sioux merchandise that may instead be buying new UND merchandise. Not a lot of people would be buying both, it would be one or the other (or neither). That would be taking dollars directly out of the UND athletic department. That would just be stupid of UND.

 

Finally, there is always the chance that the NCAA could see it as encouraging the fans to continue using the old nickname (because it actually would be encouraging the fans to do that). The NCAA could decide to punish UND again. Giving the logo to one of the tribes would be setting up UND and a new nickname to fail. The tribes had absolutely nothing to do with creating the logo or building the logo, so they have no claims on the logo.

[Fetch]

SL really likes it they could be home of the Fighting Sioux Logo 

[Ray77]

Wasn't sure which thread to post this in, but take a look at what appears to be the city of Grand Forks' flag.  A feather?!?!?!  I think it needs to be changed, it's just too offensive. ​

 

​

[Sioux>Bison]

There are 2 parts. First, keeping the nickname out there and active would increase the number of people that continue to use the Fighting Sioux nickname and cut into the number of people that start using a new nickname. The new nickname may have a hard time becoming accepted and successful because of the competition. It could fail completely. That would not help UND in any way, and it would be a mistake for UND to help encourage that by letting the logo go. Second, people would be buying Fighting Sioux merchandise that may instead be buying new UND merchandise. Not a lot of people would be buying both, it would be one or the other (or neither). That would be taking dollars directly out of the UND athletic department. That would just be stupid of UND.

Finally, there is always the chance that the NCAA could see it as encouraging the fans to continue using the old nickname (because it actually would be encouraging the fans to do that). The NCAA could decide to punish UND again. Giving the logo to one of the tribes would be setting up UND and a new nickname to fail. The tribes had absolutely nothing to do with creating the logo or building the logo, so they have no claims on the logo.

Your right about part 1 and what could happen with competing logos. I do think UND will be able to market the new logo with or without the logo and all it will take is time.

I disagree with your part 2. The ncaa has a legal agreement with UND that hey can let spirit lake use and sell merchandise with the logo. They cannot punish us if we follow the agreement. Just because they didn't create or build the logo does not mean they do not have the right to use it. It's their name that we are using and with UND's permission they have every legal right. Keeping the logo from them is as hostile and abusive as using the logo at UND.

[82SiouxGuy]

Your right about part 1 and what could happen with competing logos. I do think UND will be able to market the new logo with or without the logo and all it will take is time.

I disagree with your part 2. The ncaa has a legal agreement with UND that hey can let spirit lake use and sell merchandise with the logo. They cannot punish us if we follow the agreement. Just because they didn't create or build the logo does not mean they do not have the right to use it. It's their name that we are using and with UND's permission they have every legal right. Keeping the logo from them is as hostile and abusive as using the logo at UND.

You missed the financial competition part of my argument completely. If the Spirit Lake tribe, for instance, were selling merchandise saying Fighting Sioux and using the Bennet Brien logo, a lot of people would buy that rather than buy merchandise that says North Dakota or Roughriders or whatever name is chosen, and would continue to call the teams Fighting Sioux. Those dollars would be going to Spirit Lake rather than UND. If that Fighting Sioux merchandise is not available, then at least some of those same people are going to buy merchandise that says North Dakota or the new nickname. Those dollars go to UND. Allowing the tribes to use the nickname and logo would divert sales of merchandise away from UND merchandise to Fighting Sioux merchandise, and therefore would divert income away from UND. UND would be foolish to give away something that is going to divert income out of its bank account into the tribes band account.

 

The logo itself does not include any words, it is an artistic rendition of a Native American. It was designed by a member of the Chippewa tribe. The Sioux tribes have no claim to it in any way. UND is the connection between the logo and the Fighting Sioux name. The tribes had nothing to do with that connection. Does the Cherokee tribe deserve rights to money or a logo from Jeep because Jeep has made the Cherokee 4wd vehicle for many years? No, they don't. Your logic is flawed. The tribes have no legal or moral rights to the UND Fighting Sioux logo. If they were given the logo they would be able to reap rewards from that. But UND doesn't owe them anything, and it would be a big mistake for UND to give them the logo.

[Sioux>Bison]

You missed the financial competition part of my argument completely. If the Spirit Lake tribe, for instance, were selling merchandise saying Fighting Sioux and using the Bennet Brien logo, a lot of people would buy that rather than buy merchandise that says North Dakota or Roughriders or whatever name is chosen, and would continue to call the teams Fighting Sioux. Those dollars would be going to Spirit Lake rather than UND. If that Fighting Sioux merchandise is not available, then at least some of those same people are going to buy merchandise that says North Dakota or the new nickname. Those dollars go to UND. Allowing the tribes to use the nickname and logo would divert sales of merchandise away from UND merchandise to Fighting Sioux merchandise, and therefore would divert income away from UND. UND would be foolish to give away something that is going to divert income out of its bank account into the tribes band account.

The logo itself does not include any words, it is an artistic rendition of a Native American. It was designed by a member of the Chippewa tribe. The Sioux tribes have no claim to it in any way. UND is the connection between the logo and the Fighting Sioux name. The tribes had nothing to do with that connection. Does the Cherokee tribe deserve rights to money or a logo from Jeep because Jeep has made the Cherokee 4wd vehicle for many years? No, they don't. Your logic is flawed. The tribes have no legal or moral rights to the UND Fighting Sioux logo. If they were given the logo they would be able to reap rewards from that. But UND doesn't owe them anything, and it would be a big mistake for UND to give them the logo.

Don't you think the new logo will catch on since it is such an inspiring representative of what UND stands for? You really think if people can still buy sioux apparel that fans will never adopt the new logo even with the new athletic branding and broadcast marketing changes? UND is already losing a lot of money by retiring the logo and I don't see it ever getting back to the level it was at with the sioux logo. The logo Brien created does have a lot of meaning to the sioux people. They are the ones who gave us the approval to use it by voting for it and by a traditional ceremony. Of course they have no legal right to it without UND's permission. UND probably would have hadboth tribes in favor of they would have shared the revenue from the logo/name. We would still be ahead financially after paying the tribes a portion compared to what we have lost in sales and th sales level that we will never reach again.

[Fetch]

Can we have final sermations in 30 words or less cause no one really cares

[82SiouxGuy]

Don't you think the new logo will catch on since it is such an inspiring representative of what UND stands for? You really think if people can still buy sioux apparel that fans will never adopt the new logo even with the new athletic branding and broadcast marketing changes? UND is already losing a lot of money by retiring the logo and I don't see it ever getting back to the level it was at with the sioux logo. The logo Brien created does have a lot of meaning to the sioux people. They are the ones who gave us the approval to use it by voting for it and by a traditional ceremony. Of course they have no legal right to it without UND's permission. UND probably would have hadboth tribes in favor of they would have shared the revenue from the logo/name. We would still be ahead financially after paying the tribes a portion compared to what we have lost in sales and th sales level that we will never reach again.

The logo was created approximately 2000. The traditional ceremony that has been discussed happened in 1969. The ceremony had nothing to do with the logo. The logo itself doesn't have any significant meaning to the majority of tribe members. They may like it, but it doesn't have any deep meaning to them. Actually, since a Chippewa designed it there are a lot of Sioux tribe members that don't like it.

 

Yes, if people have a chance to buy Sioux stuff, a significant group of them will buy that and not accept a new nickname and logo. If it is not available some of those people will buy the new nickname and logo. That group is totally separate from the group that will buy the new stuff no matter what, or the group that will never buy the new stuff. The Standing Rock Tribal Council has been officially against UND using the Fighting Sioux nickname since at least 1992. They wouldn't even take phone calls on the subject after the NCAA policy was put in place in 2005. They were asked about whether they wanted money, they said that it would be selling out to take money in return for use of their name. The Standing Rock Tribal Council had no interest in allowing UND use of the name for any reason.

[CMSioux]

So when the day comes that Fighting Sioux shirts are not allowed on campus or at UND events would you be stopped at the door if you were wearing this shirt? is there an assumption that if someone wears a Sioux shirt that they are unwilling to "move on"? 

 

Just gotta comment on Standing Rock - a majority of the tribal members live in South Dakota and have never been anywhere close to Grand Forks. They have no interest in UND or the logo and thus no interest in having a vote on a name they know nothing about - just another example of how the NCAA screwed UND (Yes our Attorney General agreed to the terms at the time but no other University has had to get approval from two tribes and especially one that is about 500 miles from their campus.) But I agree that's history and time to move on - the "Protectors of other people's feelings" won.