Title Nine: Our Prong is Bigger Than Your Prong

[bison73]

UND is offering FCOA in the sport it needs to I order to stay competitive at the level of the conference.

FU and Larsen need to be thinking about wrestling and what the other schools in the BIg12 are going to do. Are FU fans going to accept any sport other than wrestling and a women's sport getting $$$ for this? We all know the answer except you. Also Dan, schools with athletic budgets much bigger than UND and FU are going to have a hard time paying for this in all sports. To think schools shouldn't be prioritizing sports is a funny. Tell me the plan for how FU covers this for all sports. I'll hang up and listen.

The estimate is $750,000.00 for the year. If you raise FB tickets 5.00 x 18,500 x 6 games is 555,000.00 by itself. Then you have the increase of premium seating dues and the fact that all tickets will now have to be attached to Teammaker membership it wont be hard to do.

 

Now this is just me spit balling here. I dont know the actual formula. I do know I increased my TM donation this year to help support FCOA.

[FSSD]

Actually - U of Min and a couple of other schools in Minnesota are feeling IX pressure right now.  I thought the article was interesting in how the NCAA looks at actual participant counts.  Which I think others have talked about with NDSU.

 

http://www.startribune.com/feds-weigh-allegations-of-gender-inequity-in-u-of-m-sports/306866861/

 

The largest group of Gophers’ female participants comes from track and field. Those athletes account for 227 participants, although many of them are counted three times by competing in indoor and outdoor track and cross-country. That counting is allowable and common, but the OCR will focus on whether it represents true opportunities for women, said Title IX attorney Nancy Hogshead-Makar.

........

 

While 501 female Gophers athletes are listed on Minnesota’s EADA filing, when male practice players are removed and each athlete is counted once, that number shrinks to 312 female student-athletes. 

[FargoBison]

Larsen has to wait for any FCS to FBS rules changes. He doesn't want to offer kids FCOA and then have to yank it from them so NDSU can go FBS. FBS will greatly increase dollars needed and women sports offered (at least two women sports). If it's pay to play, as FBS may have a initial fee, it would be daunting.

 

In the FBS, FCOA is mandatory cost of doing business. If you don't do it, you have absolutely zero business being there. NDSU would need FCOA in place for everything before even contemplating a jump up. 

[SiouxVolley]

Actually - U of Min and a couple of other schools in Minnesota are feeling IX pressure right now.  I thought the article was interesting in how the NCAA looks at actual participant counts.  Which I think others have talked about with NDSU.

 

http://www.startribune.com/feds-weigh-allegations-of-gender-inequity-in-u-of-m-sports/306866861/

 

The largest group of Gophers’ female participants comes from track and field. Those athletes account for 227 participants, although many of them are counted three times by competing in indoor and outdoor track and cross-country. That counting is allowable and common, but the OCR will focus on whether it represents true opportunities for women, said Title IX attorney Nancy Hogshead-Makar.

........

 

While 501 female Gophers athletes are listed on Minnesota’s EADA filing, when male practice players are removed and each athlete is counted once, that number shrinks to 312 female student-athletes. 

So some one complains anonymously to the Dept of Education Civil Rights office about Gopher Title IX compliance, and then the next thing there are Federal agents measuring locker rooms and coaches offices for compliance?

Can someone volunteer to report NDSU, or has that already happened?

[SiouxVolley]

In the FBS, FCOA is mandatory cost of doing business. If you don't do it, you have absolutely zero business being there. NDSU would need FCOA in place for everything before even contemplating a jump up.

So most of the G5 have no business being FBS?

A recruit would much rather get an FBS scholarship with no FCOA than a partial FCS one with FCOA, all other things being even.

[homer]

The estimate is $750,000.00 for the year. If you raise FB tickets 5.00 x 18,500 x 6 games is 555,000.00 by itself. Then you have the increase of premium seating dues and the fact that all tickets will now have to be attached to Teammaker membership it wont be hard to do.

Now this is just me spit balling here. I dont know the actual formula. I do know I increased my TM donation this year to help support FCOA.

If it's that easy what's the holdup. Why the wait and see from the AD? The raise in ticket prices may be needed to make up for no FBS games in the future.

[bison73]

After all the braggards from bisonville exclaiming that NDSU will offer cost of attendance for this coming season, turns out they won't make a decision until 2016-17. What gives? Title IX problems?

http://www.inforum.com/sports/3766157-many-other-fcs-schools-ndsu-waiting-play-its-hand-providing-student-athletes-cost

They will offer FCOA.  You can count on it.  But I am surprised on the timeline. I guess I misinterpreted when they said they would be making a decision.

 

Question---can you ever engage in conversation without some type of unfounded innuendo?

[bison73]

If it's that easy what's the holdup. Why the wait and see from the AD? The raise in ticket prices may be needed to make up for no FBS games in the future.

As I said--I was spit balling. May be they figured it wasn't going to be an issue until next year? Im sure he got a feel whats going on with the other schools as they don't live in a vacuum.

[SiouxVolley]

They will offer FCOA. You can count on it. Looks like you are grasping at straws. As usual.

You and Bison Dan are personal advisers to AD Larsen giving assurances that FCOA will carry the day in bisonville. Glad to see Larsen surrounds himself with such an August staff. Carry on ...

[FargoBison]

So most of the G5 have no business being FBS?

A recruit would much rather get an FBS scholarship with no FCOA than a partial FCS one with FCOA, all other things being even.

 

Most of the G5 will do it. The ones that don't, won't be competitive. 

 

NDSU isn't going to jump its football up and not do everything possible to be competitive. FCOA would be mandatory in that scenario. 

[jdub27]

Actually - U of Min and a couple of other schools in Minnesota are feeling IX pressure right now.  I thought the article was interesting in how the NCAA looks at actual participant counts.  Which I think others have talked about with NDSU.

 

I know that the issue brought up in the Star Tribune is mainly related to money being spent on the different genders, however participation numbers are also mentioned as part of the issue. 

 

Just for fun: If you look at the unduplicated participation numbers (each student athlete counted once, regardless of how many sports they play), U of M's women's participation rate is at 46.5% (337 women vs. 388 men), ranking 149th. For comparison: UND is ranked 161st at 45.7% (205 women vs. 244 men) and NDSU is at 31.4% (129 women vs. 282 men) which ranks 340 out 347 schools in Division 1.

 

Looking at the total participation (student athletes are counted once for each sport they participate in), NDSU does move up to 337 out of 347 at 35.0% (188 women vs. 349 men).  U of M moves up to 102 out of 347 at 51.5% (501 women vs. 471 men).  UND is ranked 163rd at 48.1% (268 women vs. 289 men).

 

U of M does have a higher percentage of women enrollment (51.1%) than NDSU (43.3%) or UND (45.4%). 

 

Equal opportunities don't matter when you can produce "surveys" to show that women supposedly aren't interested in D-1 athletic opportunities.

[The Sicatoka]

 

Equal opportunities don't matter when you can produce "surveys" to show that women supposedly aren't interested in D-1 athletic opportunities.

 

About those surveys in use at NDSU: Something seems to not align when you look at NDSU in comparison to other, nearby NCAA Division I schools, regarding the athletic interests of the women attending NDSU.  

 

I looked at UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, Minnesota, Montana, Montana State, and Northern Iowa. For NDSU, that's the three closest MVFC schools (two of them Summit schools), the three closest Big Sky schools, and Minnesota. 

 

Every school on that list, except NDSU, offers womens tennis. 

 

Every school on that list, except for NDSU (and the two Montanas, the two furthest on my list), offers womens swimming and diving. 

 

 

I guess I'm wondering how NDSU's surveys don't find interest in tennis and swimming when the comparable nearest DI schools do. 

 

 

But it must be acceptable, because NDSU is the only school I can find that includes this caveat in its reporting to the US Dept of Education in its Title IX numbers: 

NDSU Offers a wide variety of athletic opportunities for its students at the varsity, club, intramural and recreational levels. NDSU diligently monitors its students’ athletic interests so its athletic offerings can continue to meet its students’ needs.

 

 

NDSU is the only one with that caveat (disclaimer?) added. I wonder why they felt the need to include that when others didn't. 

[jdub27]

The estimate is $750,000.00 for the year. If you raise FB tickets 5.00 x 18,500 x 6 games is 555,000.00 by itself. Then you have the increase of premium seating dues and the fact that all tickets will now have to be attached to Teammaker membership it wont be hard to do.

 

Now this is just me spit balling here. I dont know the actual formula. I do know I increased my TM donation this year to help support FCOA.

 

Some holes in your math....

-NDSU isn't necessarily guaranteed to have 6 home games every year (though have held strong on it thus far).

-NDSU has 4,000 student tickets allocated per game plus whatever they are required to give to the visitor plus player tickets.  Even if you only included the student tickets, you've just lost 20% of your "new-found" revenue.  Your idea probably gets them halfway there.

[JohnboyND7]

Some holes in your math....

-NDSU isn't necessarily guaranteed to have 6 home games every year (though have held strong on it thus far).

-NDSU has 4,000 student tickets allocated per game plus whatever they are required to give to the visitor plus player tickets. Even if you only included the student tickets, you've just lost 20% of your "new-found" revenue. Your idea probably gets them halfway there.

Student fees go up on all the time.

[The Sicatoka]

Student fees go up on all the time.

 

Yes, and they have been getting more and more of the "stink-eye" from everyone from student groups to the Legislature. 

[homer]

Some holes in your math....

-NDSU isn't necessarily guaranteed to have 6 home games every year (though have held strong on it thus far).

-NDSU has 4,000 student tickets allocated per game plus whatever they are required to give to the visitor plus player tickets.  Even if you only included the student tickets, you've just lost 20% of your "new-found" revenue.  Your idea probably gets them halfway there.

 

Also, only one more FBS game on the schedule.  That is $300,00+ that will be coming out of FUs athletic budget yearly and has to be made up. 

 

Not saying they can't pull it off but I question if its so easy why the sudden change we will wait and see approach. 

[homer]

I know that the issue brought up in the Star Tribune is mainly related to money being spent on the different genders, however participation numbers are also mentioned as part of the issue. 

 

Just for fun: If you look at the unduplicated participation numbers (each student athlete counted once, regardless of how many sports they play), U of M's women's participation rate is at 46.5% (337 women vs. 388 men), ranking 149th. For comparison: UND is ranked 161st at 45.7% (205 women vs. 244 men) and NDSU is at 31.4% (129 women vs. 282 men) which ranks 340 out 347 schools in Division 1.

 

Looking at the total participation (student athletes are counted once for each sport they participate in), NDSU does move up to 337 out of 347 at 35.0% (188 women vs. 349 men).  U of M moves up to 102 out of 347 at 51.5% (501 women vs. 471 men).  UND is ranked 163rd at 48.1% (268 women vs. 289 men).

 

U of M does have a higher percentage of women enrollment (51.1%) than NDSU (43.3%) or UND (45.4%). 

 

Equal opportunities don't matter when you can produce "surveys" to show that women supposedly aren't interested in D-1 athletic opportunities.

 

In regards to FCOA, an athlete who competes in multiple sports wouldn't get it for both sports so the 31.4% number would have to be used.  That makes the following quote from Larsen in a recent FU Illustrated article pretty interesting. 

 

We always evaluate what’s best for North Dakota State and the one thing I would say is, and the one thing I think we do a very good job of here throughout our history is treating our athletes as equals, whether you’re the football player or the baseball player, softball athlete, the golf athlete. I think we’ve treated them all equally and so that’s going into our consideration as we look at the best model for cost-of-attendance if we opt to implement it.

 

 

So is he saying they will only offer FCOA to 31.4% of male scholorships?  That will of course be spread out equally among the football, basketball, baseball, golf, CC and track and field athletes.

[jdub27]

In regards to FCOA, an athlete who competes in multiple sports wouldn't get it for both sports so the 31.4% number would have to be used.  That makes the following quote from Larsen in a recent FU Illustrated article pretty interesting. 

 

 

So is he saying they will only offer FCOA to 31.4% of male scholorships?  That will of course be spread out equally among the football, basketball, baseball, golf, CC and track and field athletes.

 

Their current athletic aid is split 39/61, so that might be the more accurate number since FCOA only goes to scholarship athletes (for comparison, UND is at 49/51).

 

I guess debating on Larsen's quote to whether their athletes are treated equal is a subjective thing and assuming he is talking strictly about the athletes that are on campus, he probably has solid ground to stand on.  What isn't subjective is that NDSU provide nowhere near the opportunities for student athletes that all measures besides their "surveys" seem to show they should.  What they aren't treating equally is the opportunity for women student athletes, since for every single opportunity provided for a women, there are 2.2 opportunities provided for men.

[The Sicatoka]

What isn't subjective is that NDSU provide nowhere near the opportunities for student athletes that all measures besides their "surveys" seem to show they should.  What they aren't treating equally is the opportunity for women student athletes, since for every single opportunity provided for a women, there are 2.2 opportunities provided for men.

 

Again, I wonder how NDSU's "abilities and interests" are so different from their regional neighbors and conference peers. 

 

I looked at UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, Minnesota, Montana, Montana State, and Northern Iowa. For NDSU, that's the three closest MVFC schools (two of them Summit schools), the three closest Big Sky schools, and Minnesota. 

 

Every school on that list, except NDSU, offers womens tennis. 

 

Every school on that list, except for NDSU (and the two Montanas, the two furthest on my list), offers womens swimming and diving. 

 

 

I guess I'm wondering how NDSU's surveys don't find interest in tennis and swimming when the comparable nearest DI schools do. 

[SiouxVolley]

So NDSU has women's club teams for lax, hockey, fencing, skiing, and horsemanship, which are NCAA sports. Doesn't NDSU'S sponsorship of these club teams actually invalidate their prong three? There is obvious interest and arguably aptitudes out there.

Maybe NDSU should cancel all its club teams, so it wouldn't appear there is any athletic interest among its women.

Title IX disaster just waiting to happen. Teammakers will have to pay up.

[darell1976]

So NDSU has women's club teams for lax, hockey, fencing, skiing, and horsemanship, which are NCAA sports. Doesn't NDSU'S sponsorship of these club teams actually invalidate their prong three? There is obvious interest and arguably aptitudes out there.

Maybe NDSU should cancel all its club teams, so it wouldn't appear there is any athletic interest among its women.

Title IX disaster just waiting to happen. Teammates will have to pay up.

After football and men's basketball nothing else matters says the Bison AD.

At UND all sports matters says the UND AD.

[The Sicatoka]

So NDSU has women's club teams for lax, hockey, fencing, skiing, and horsemanship, which are NCAA sports.

You missed club tennis on your list.

How can their prong three surveys (for interest and ability) not find these interests and abilities?

[JohnboyND7]

After football and men's basketball nothing else matters says the Bison AD.

At UND all sports matters says the UND AD.

Gosh for those sports mattering the university is doing an awful job then.

[bison73]

So NDSU has women's club teams for lax, hockey, fencing, skiing, and horsemanship, which are NCAA sports. Doesn't NDSU'S sponsorship of these club teams actually invalidate their prong three? There is obvious interest and arguably aptitudes out there.

Maybe NDSU should cancel all its club teams, so it wouldn't appear there is any athletic interest among its women.

Title IX disaster just waiting to happen. Teammakers will have to pay up.

 

Why not give the compliance officer a call? I am sure she can and will correct any misconceptions you have.

[jdub27]

Why not give the compliance officer a call? I am sure she can and will correct any misconceptions you have.

 

Not sure what misconceptions there is about having the 8th worst women's participation rate out of 347 Division 1 schools.  But I guess they add the caveat "NDSU Offers a wide variety of athletic opportunities for its students at the varsity, club, intramural and recreational levels. NDSU diligently monitors its students’ athletic interests so its athletic offerings can continue to meet its students’ needs."

 

Weird they feel the need to preemptively defend it...