southpaw Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I just get the feeling that Kupchella's letter didn't go over to well and so RT wrote his to try and appeal to the students. It seems too much like "There's a problem, go fix it, or else." There doesn't seem to be any attempt by UND or The Ralph to actually help in the process of "fixing it." Sure RT said in the letter that its not directed 100% at students. Sure its not, but I'd say about 90% of it is, which still puts us in a position of the students vs the man. The past couple years, the students have been placed in a position where the administration uses its power to remove students from the game unless they conform. Chances are if the Admin and REA pursue this one too, we will soon have a completely social club for casual Sioux fans to go and chat. I'm definitely looking forward to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 POI has a link to a "cheers" page. The "official" UoM school songs link is also there. I don't agree with some of their featured cheers but perhaps its a way to get things started. http://prideonice.com/cheers.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 It seems too much like "There's a problem, go fix it, or else." Yes, that's exactly the point. Do you really want the "or else" to be administered by the NCAA, the US Department of Education or the Justice Department? I don't. There doesn't seem to be any attempt by UND or The Ralph to actually help in the process of "fixing it."There is nothing to fix. All that can be done is for those engaging in behavior detrimental to UND to end that behavior. If they don't, UND will suffer the consequences. You can debate and search for compromises and "fixes" all you want, but when the axe falls, it will be too late. Sure RT said in the letter that its not directed 100% at students. Sure its not, but I'd say about 90% of it is, which still puts us in a position of the students vs the man. And Thomas explained why that is when he wrote: The main difference between you and other fans is that they do not have traditional group cheers that contain profane language. This is why I am writing to you specifically.How do you address the problem of profane cheers without communicating with those who are doing them? The past couple years, the students have been placed in a position where the administration uses its power to remove students from the game unless they conform. Which, if what Thomas says is true, means that students aren't being treated any differently from anyone else who fails to conform to the rules. Chances are if the Admin and REA pursue this one too, we will soon have a completely social club for casual Sioux fans to go and chat. I'm definitely looking forward to that It's not an either/or situation, as in "Either we get to be as profane as we want or we have dead silence." As beersong so eloquently noted earlier in this thread, it is entirely possible to have great atmosphere in an arena without excessive profanity and vulgarity. If Kupchella and Thomas were asking students and fans to do something unreasonable, people would have justification to complain. But asking adults to engage in socially acceptable public behavior is not unreasonable, especially when they agree to do so at the time they buy their tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 If Kupchella and Thomas were asking students and fans to do something unreasonable, people would have justification to complain. But asking adults to engage in socially acceptable public behavior is not unreasonable, especially when they agree to do so at the time they buy their tickets. I don't disagree but the AD/REA need to follow through on things they agree to also. There were so many things that students were told would happen and then they don't. That is frustrating. It can get better, both sides just need to work together, not just pretend to. Also how come this comes up before the CC series? What is it with CC? The whole contreversy originally started after the CC series in 2001 and now that CC is coming here, it starts up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morley Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I just get the feeling that Kupchella's letter didn't go over to well and so RT wrote his to try and appeal to the students. It seems too much like "There's a problem, go fix it, or else." There doesn't seem to be any attempt by UND or The Ralph to actually help in the process of "fixing it." Sure RT said in the letter that its not directed 100% at students. Sure its not, but I'd say about 90% of it is, which still puts us in a position of the students vs the man. The past couple years, the students have been placed in a position where the administration uses its power to remove students from the game unless they conform. Chances are if the Admin and REA pursue this one too, we will soon have a completely social club for casual Sioux fans to go and chat. I'm definitely looking forward to that PCM, I think you are missing Mory00's point, He agrees that changes need to be changed. But at the same time, he and I along with about 30 other students tried to create atmosphere by handing out little sheets of paper with cheers and the school songs on the to the general public when they walked in the doors. You wouldn't believe how many people either didn't want them or threw them away after a quick glance. A security guard actually told me to stop handing them out cause they were just being tossed on the floor There doesn't seem to be any attempt by UND or The Ralph to actually help in the process of "fixing it." There is nothing to fix. All that can be done is for those engaging in behavior detrimental to UND to end that behavior. If they don't, UND will suffer the consequences. You can debate and search for compromises and "fixes" all you want, but when the axe falls, it will be too late. There is something to fix.........It's not just the Vulgarity that is the problem, if the AD and REA tries to help create atmosphere in a non vulgar way, then there will be something available to replace the vulgarness with. Otherwise it will become the social club it was the first year, a place to be seen by everyone in the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 POI has a link to a "cheers" page. The "official" UoM school songs link is also there. I don't agree with some of their featured cheers but perhaps its a way to get things started. http://prideonice.com/cheers.php I agree it is a way of getting things started. But those Goofer pukes sound really stupid!!!!! I mean really. How much time is left? Wow that's a good one!!! Back at full strength..that's debatable! These cheers pack as much puch as a Adam Hauser clearing attempt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I don't disagree but the AD/REA need to follow through on things they agree to also. There were so many things that students were told would happen and then they don't. That is frustrating. It can get better, both sides just need to work together, not just pretend to. I don't disagree that there are steps that could be taken to improve the atmosphere at REA. I totally support those efforts and have wondered why UND and REA don't do more to get people involved in the games. It appears that there's a lot more that could be done. And if there were promises made that weren't kept, that was wrong and those areas should be readdressed. BUT That's really a separate issue from the profanity and racist remarks. We need to stop pretending that it's either profanity or nothing because it's not true. Those arguments only serve as an excuse to avoid dealing with the real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Otherwise it will become the social club it was the first year, a place to be seen by everyone in the community. Sorry, but I simply can't agree with this reasoning. I have been to several games at the REA at which student involvement was minimal because most of them were on vacation or spring break. Yet the atmoshphere was fantastic. The argument that if you don't allow profanity, there will be nothing to replace it is compeletely bogus. It's just another way to rationalize ignoring the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morley Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 When, I haven't missed a home game since fall of 98. There hasn't been crap for atmosphere when the students weren't there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpaw Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 PCM, it's going to be profanity or nothing if the REA/AD don't help out. Then you've already lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 When, I haven't missed a home game since fall of 98. There hasn't been crap for atmosphere when the students weren't there Sorry, but that's just not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorov Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 One thing to consider is that when the students are not there, the tickets are sold to people that do not have season tickets. That means there is no way to prove that the atmosphere was still good with the regular season ticket holders. It could mean that the fans taking the place of the students were the ones carrying the crowd. The regular season ticket holders have never done anything to show that they can be real loud on their own. If they had, it would also mean that they refuse to work with the students, which isn't good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 When, I haven't missed a home game since fall of 98. There hasn't been crap for atmosphere when the students weren't there The Denver playoff series last year was a great atmosphere. Most of the students were gone for the beginning of spring break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 The Denver playoff series last year was a great atmosphere. Most of the students were gone for the beginning of spring break. It was the same with the series against Colorado College when most of the students were gone for the holiday break. If that place was ever louder when David Hale scored the tying goal in the final seconds of regulation, I don't know when it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I gotta agree. The two loudest times I've ever heard were after David's and Fuhrer's goals last year. Especially Fuhrer's, that was absolutely great. And that goal Dave scored capped the best game I have ever seen. If REA tries to help out, I think it can work alot better. That in itself so be enough motivation for them to help. If they truely care as much as they say they do, it is in their best interest to do something, whatever that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morley Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 ok, you are right last year cc was great, but not until the game was almost over and Ranfranz had stood on his head after the Sioux had let in 4 goals. And the lower student section was still mainly students for that series. I should now I was standing outside in the freezing cold with them before the game. And playoffs don't count.......There is always going to be atmosphere if for no other reason than that it is playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 The Denver playoff series last year was a great atmosphere. Most of the students were gone for the beginning of spring break. I have to agree the place was rocking during the Sunday game of last year's home series of the WCHA playoffs. I think I felt the arena shake during the third period of the final game. I hope we can witness that again this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forecheck Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Sorry, but that's just not true. Well now, you can't call his opinion "not true" when it is entirely subjective. I agree that something needs to change and it can only start with the students. However, I think Lawkota made some excellent points earlier. If the students are treated like adults, they will respond as adults. I think RT is a class act athletic director, and when standing was an issue 2 years ago he personally took time to meet with students once a week to come up with solutions. He treated us like adults, even though most of us showed up to the meeting with a closed mind. (A few of the "Green Hairem" guys stood up the entire time RT was talking, complete with hockey jerseys and wigs, to show him how it does indeed intimidate a person.) Now, the students' ideas for increased atmosphere were experimented with for about 1-2 series and disappeared, but they were at least given some consideration. As people quickly found out though, new traditions will take time, more than 1-2 series. The athletic department and REA officials definitely need to work with the students if they want to truly turn the atmosphere around into a positive direction. Also, the administration, Kupchella, or the powers that be at UND, should be taking some responsibility for the behavior that has been allowed to go on at hockey games for centuries. Not all of the responsibility obviously, since we are all adults. But some. An employee's job performance is a reflection of the leadership he/she receives. If a team is losing, the coach is fired and a new one is hired. Just as people pointed out last weekend that Blais et al should be taking some responsibility for the Friday night noss and not place the blame entirely on Brandt, I believe Kupchella should take responsibility for the behavior present at games. Berating the students publicly before somehow addressing the issue with them first seems a bit harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 When, I haven't missed a home game since fall of 98. There hasn't been crap for atmosphere when the students weren't there I was at the CC series last year when both ended in a tie. I thought the place did all right without the students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprig Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 And here is the first column concerning the name/logo and fan behavior. Changed it, PCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Well now, you can't call his opinion "not true" when it is entirely subjective. So you agree that the atmosphere was "crap" during the Colorado series? I know that Scott Owens would disagree. At any rate, people are confusing the issue. And as long as they continue to do that, the problem of profanity and racial taunts isn't going to be solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 And here is the first letter to the editor concerning the name/logo and fan behavior. Actually, that's a column by Doreen Yellowbird who writes regularly for the Herald. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorov Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I was at the CC series last year when both ended in a tie. I thought the place did all right without the students. As said earlier, there were quite a few students at the game. Those that came were on the lower level, where the atmosphere is. It is hard for the upper four student sections to get into the game with no other support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 It's been bothering me so I'm going to say it: There comes a level of conduct that you* must maintain if you want to call yourself a fan of "The Fighting Sioux." You must maintaining a level of socially-acceptable decorum and conduct, when you disclose yourself as a "Fighting Sioux" fan, that honors the name and all those associated with it, the University of North Dakota, your team, your peers, and yourself. If that sounds like I'm old and harping, so be it. But let me ask you this: Would you behave the same way if your grandmother was sitting next to you? I've given my opinion to referees before. (Wallet in one hand, a pair of glasses in the other, and told them "Your choice! But use one and quit killing us!" I actually got Medo Martinello to smile.) It can be done creatively and with honor. So get on it. Quit going to the lowest common denominator. You are at the University of North Dakota. You far exceed the LCD. Show it. And remember: The Yellow Bird's of the word are just looking for an excuse to say that your behavior makes you unworthy of the honorable "Fighting Sioux" name. Don't believe me? She's already made the first move. It's easier to fix little things yourself than it is to have the NCAA, or the US Office of Civil Rights, or the US Department of Justice "fix" them for you. Please note that this saga started right after Kupchella and Thomas got back from the 2004 NCAA meetings in Nashville in January. It started at a lot of schools right after the 2004 NCAA Convention. If you think that is a coincidence .... * The "you" in this statement ranges from the 5-year old in a jersey to the students in the student sections to the season ticket holders of any age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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