College Hockey Expansion

[Siouxperfan7]

If UND can get a piece of the B1G Network pie, then it may be worth looking into.  If they get the Notre Dame deal ($0) then no way its worth it. 

[streetsahead]

  On 4/12/2017 at 1:28 PM, Siouxperfan7 said:

If UND can get a piece of the B1G Network pie, then it may be worth looking into.  If they get the Notre Dame deal ($0) then no way its worth it. 

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Wasn't there something about Notre Dame's existing deal with NBCSN that impacted that?  It's not really apples and oranges if that's the case.  I agree with you, though. If there are BTN revenues involved its at least worth considering.  It's just unclear to me whether the Big Ten said "No way" or Notre Dame didn't want it.

[MafiaMan]

  On 4/11/2017 at 9:29 PM, The Sicatoka said:

Our Lady of South Bend kept their rights to their NBCSN deal so they get nothing. 

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  On 4/12/2017 at 1:28 PM, Siouxperfan7 said:

If UND can get a piece of the B1G Network pie, then it may be worth looking into.  If they get the Notre Dame deal ($0) then no way its worth it. 

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  On 4/12/2017 at 1:35 PM, streetsahead said:

Wasn't there something about Notre Dame's existing deal with NBCSN that impacted that?  It's not really apples and oranges if that's the case.  I agree with you, though. If there are BTN revenues involved its at least worth considering.  It's just unclear to me whether the Big Ten said "No way" or Notre Dame didn't want it.

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Spot-on, streetsahead.  Notre Dame getting $0 of the B1G pie has ZERO to do with other deals the conference could or would potentially cut with other schools.  Notre Dame gets NOTHING because they would not give up their own current TV deal, which makes sense.  Why would the B1G share TV revenue with Notre Dame from a Friday night Michigan vs Minnesota game on BTN when the Fighting Irish are busy playing someone else in the same exact time-slot over on NBCSN?  

[The Sicatoka]

  On 4/11/2017 at 11:00 PM, cberkas said:

I didn't hear anything about $5 million, ... 

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Really? 
< transcript starting at 21:11 > 
"Supposedly they're trying to recruit North Dakota for hockey but they don't want to write out the check. You know, if I'm North Dakota I make them give me five million dollars." 

 

http://www.1500espn.com/shows/saturday-sportstalk/ (link to April 8, hour 1, show is what you want) 

[The Sicatoka]

Like when this came up before, if the BTHC is comin' and askin' UND should realize they are in a good negotiating position. 

If I am in the negotiations ...

MUSTS (non-negotiables):
- UND controls days/times of home games ( Fri@730 / Sat@700 unless UND decides otherwise)
- UND gets secondary media rights for games not taken by BTN (meaning Midco regional cable or Fox regional cable) 
- B1G plays NCHC exit fees; no entry fees to BTHC
- annual check from BTN equal to 10% of the check U of Minnesota gets from BTN. 

Additional negotiating points: 
- we'd really like a once in rotating four years exception to allow a B1G school to play UND in football 
(feel free to add here) 
 

[Siouxperfan7]

  On 4/12/2017 at 2:03 PM, The Sicatoka said:

Like when this came up before, if the BTHC is comin' and askin' UND should realize they are in a good negotiating position. 

If I am in the negotiations ...

MUSTS (non-negotiables):
- UND controls days/times of home games ( Fri@730 / Sat@700 unless UND decides otherwise)
- UND gets secondary media rights for games not taken by BTN (meaning Midco regional cable or Fox regional cable) 
- B1G plays NCHC exit fees; no entry fees to BTHC
- annual check from BTN equal to 10% of the check U of Minnesota gets from BTN. 

Additional negotiating points: 
- we'd really like a once in rotating four years exception to allow a B1G school to play UND in football 
(feel free to add here) 
 

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B1G changed their policy and no longer plays FCS schools.  I would leave any non-hockey negations out of it.  Sure, UND is an a strong bargaining position.  But it's not like the B1G is calling Faison every day seeing if he will consider joining he conference. 

[The Sicatoka]

  On 4/12/2017 at 2:41 PM, Siouxperfan7 said:

B1G changed their policy and no longer plays FCS schools.  I would leave any non-hockey negations out of it.  Sure, UND is an a strong bargaining position.  But it's not like the B1G is calling Faison every day seeing if he will consider joining he conference. 

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It's negotiations.
As a wise one said to me recently, when they come to you you ask for the moon. 

Sure, they don't play FCS teams any more. But, why not ask for an exception. Most they can say is no and if they do you drop it. 

[The Sicatoka]

I missed one of my MUSTS:

- a "no ejection" clause -- say X adds hockey, the BTHC can not eject UND unless B1G pays an additional 3 years beyond ejection date of BTN revenues to UND in advance. 

[UNDBIZ]

  On 4/12/2017 at 2:52 PM, The Sicatoka said:

I missed one of my MUSTS:

- a "no ejection" clause -- say X adds hockey, the BTHC can not eject UND unless B1G pays an additional 3 years beyond ejection date of BTN revenues to UND in advance. 

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Are you referring to TOTAL BTN revenues?

[The Sicatoka]

  On 4/12/2017 at 3:04 PM, UNDBIZ said:

Are you referring to TOTAL BTN revenues?

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No, a reference to one of my other MUST clauses:

- annual check from BTN equal to 10% of the check U of Minnesota gets from BTN.  

So, basically a check for 30% of what Minnesota gets as a parting gift.  

[UNDBIZ]

  On 4/12/2017 at 3:05 PM, The Sicatoka said:

No, a reference to one of my other MUST clauses:

- annual check from BTN equal to 10% of the check U of Minnesota gets from BTN.  

So, basically a check for 30% of what Minnesota gets as a parting gift.  

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That would only be around $6 million.  Gotta go higher if we want it to be a real deterrence. 

[The Sicatoka]

  On 4/12/2017 at 3:07 PM, UNDBIZ said:

That would only be around $6 million.  Gotta go higher if we want it to be a real deterrence. 

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You're low, by a lot. 

  Quote

The league’s new TV deal kicks in later this year, a reported $2.6 billion package over six years. The Cedar Rapids-Gazette reported that per-school payouts are conservatively estimated to top $43 million in 2017-18 and could top out at $54 million per school at the end of the contract.

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Source: http://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/the-big-tens-new-tv-deal-puts-it-into-the-lead-may-provide-a-competitive-edge.html 

I'm saying $4.3 to 5.4 million per year* and a $13-$16 million buyout. 

 

*Tying the annual cut to 10% of the BTN per school payout puts in automatic escalator clauses. And it makes ejecting more and more expensive as well. 

[SJHovey]

  On 4/12/2017 at 2:45 PM, The Sicatoka said:

It's negotiations.
As a wise one said to me recently, when they come to you you ask for the moon. 

Sure, they don't play FCS teams any more. But, why not ask for an exception. Most they can say is no and if they do you drop it. 

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Personally, I think all this speculation is for nought.  Let's think about some things.

B1G hockey has to be feeling a lot better about itself than it was even a couple of months ago when this rumor broke.  They got three teams in the tournament.  Notre Dame, who also made the field and is joining them next year, made the Frozen Four.  Michigan and Michigan St., two of their bread and butter programs just cut their dead weight coaching staffs.

Are they suddenly going to ask North Dakota to join them?  A school with, shall we say "well publicized", financial problems in its athletic department?

And what about our Admin?  Are they going to suddenly "find" the money to pay the NCHC exit fee after unceremoniously showing the women's program the exit?  Good luck selling the P.R. dog.

[The Sicatoka]

SJ, I completely understand what you're saying, but, feel obliged to make one more point:

An 8 team conference is better than a 7 team conference. Scheduling. Tournaments. Everything. 

[cowboys5xsbs]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:01 PM, SJHovey said:

Personally, I think all this speculation is for nought.  Let's think about some things.

B1G hockey has to be feeling a lot better about itself than it was even a couple of months ago when this rumor broke.  They got three teams in the tournament.  Notre Dame, who also made the field and is joining them next year, made the Frozen Four.  Michigan and Michigan St., two of their bread and butter programs just cut their dead weight coaching staffs.

Are they suddenly going to ask North Dakota to join them?  A school with, shall we say "well publicized", financial problems in its athletic department?

And what about our Admin?  Are they going to suddenly "find" the money to pay the NCHC exit fee after unceremoniously showing the women's program the exit?  Good luck selling the P.R. dog.

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The Big Ten would pay it ideally.  

[SJHovey]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:03 PM, The Sicatoka said:

SJ, I completely understand what you're saying, but, feel obliged to make one more point:

An 8 team conference is better than a 7 team conference. Scheduling. Tournaments. Everything. 

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Oh, I agree with you.  I definitely think they're going to go after someone.

[Bison101]

  On 4/12/2017 at 3:07 PM, UNDBIZ said:

That would only be around $6 million.  Gotta go higher if we want it to be a real deterrence. 

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I like College Hockey and respect that UND is "blue blood" in that sport, but why in the Hell would the B1G pay UND 6 million a year. Instead, they could take half that money and if membership agrees, put together an incentive package of let's say 30 million over 10 years to help start a Hockey program within their current membership. Make it a matching deal, but surely one of Iowa, Nebraska, or Illinois would jump at it. 

Personally, I would think the Big Red would be a perfect fit. They have the facilities and aren't a basketball school in any way shape or form. They also have a dedicated fan base that will travel.

[UNDBIZ]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:33 PM, Bison101 said:

I like College Hockey and respect that UND is "blue blood" in that sport, but why in the Hell would the B1G pay UND 6 million a year. Instead, they could take half that money and if membership agrees, put together an incentive package of let's say 30 million over 10 years to help start a Hockey program within their current membership. Make it a matching deal, but surely one of Iowa, Nebraska, or Illinois would jump at it. 

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The conversation got a little confused there.  Was saying a $6 million penalty is too low for kicking UND out of the conference.

[cowboys5xsbs]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:33 PM, Bison101 said:

I like College Hockey and respect that UND is "blue blood" in that sport, but why in the Hell would the B1G pay UND 6 million a year. Instead, they could take half that money and if membership agrees, put together an incentive package of let's say 30 million over 10 years to help start a Hockey program within their current membership. Make it a matching deal, but surely one of Iowa, Nebraska, or Illinois would jump at it. 

Personally, I would think the Big Red would be a perfect fit. They have the facilities and aren't a basketball school in any way shape or form. They also have a dedicated fan base that will travel.

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Because UND=$$$$.  UND travels  better than any fanbase.  UND also puts tons of eyeballs onto the big ten network.  Have you seen some of the Big Ten games they look like ghost towns.  UND would pack the seats.  Iowa or Illinois would bring in some fans but they would nowhere close what you could get with UND.  Nebraska can't start a hockey team because they made an agreement with Omaha.  

[cberkas]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:33 PM, Bison101 said:

I like College Hockey and respect that UND is "blue blood" in that sport, but why in the Hell would the B1G pay UND 6 million a year. Instead, they could take half that money and if membership agrees, put together an incentive package of let's say 30 million over 10 years to help start a Hockey program within their current membership. Make it a matching deal, but surely one of Iowa, Nebraska, or Illinois would jump at it. 

Personally, I would think the Big Red would be a perfect fit. They have the facilities and aren't a basketball school in any way shape or form. They also have a dedicated fan base that will travel.

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None of the current B1G members want to add hockey, the only exception is a guy who use to be the general manager of Rutgers hockey team.

[UNDBIZ]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:48 PM, cowboys5xsbs said:

Nebraska can't start a hockey team because they made an agreement with Omaha.  

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[UNDBIZ]

  On 4/12/2017 at 3:33 PM, The Sicatoka said:

You're low, by a lot. 

Source: http://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/the-big-tens-new-tv-deal-puts-it-into-the-lead-may-provide-a-competitive-edge.html 

I'm saying $4.3 to 5.4 million per year* and a $13-$16 million buyout. 

 

*Tying the annual cut to 10% of the BTN per school payout puts in automatic escalator clauses. And it makes ejecting more and more expensive as well. 

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Ok, I was going by the 2016 NCAA report filed by UMinny which had $22 million in media revenue.  Apparently they're due for a bump.

[The Sicatoka]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:33 PM, Bison101 said:

I like College Hockey and respect that UND is "blue blood" in that sport, but why in the Hell would the B1G pay UND 6 million a year.

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UNDBIZ answered part of the question already. (There was confusion as to context; but, I'm saying 10% of what others get from BTN, so, it could be $4+ million annually.) 

How? Honestly. PMAB. Pissing, moaning, and bitching. Not by UND but by Minnesota and Wisconsin. 

Those two have suffered mightily at the turnstiles since BTHC. And that's an indicator of fan interest. And fan interest drives revenues across the board. Minnesota and Wisconsin hockey have suffered losses in fan interest since the loss of North Dakota on the schedule. Period. 

For UW, a 5000 avg att drop, for 20 games: 100000 tickets, at $20, $2,000,000 off the gate. 
For UMn, a 3000 avg att drop, for 20 games: 60000 tickets, at $30, $1,800,000 off the gate. 

But that is just gate; that's not the tertiary impacts of merchandise sales lost or secondary marketing. Say $4M to recover how much? And to get UND fans into those other rinks also? 

The other angles?
UMi, MSU, OSU, and PSU got their wet dream in the BTHC: Our Lady of South Bend <-- what's UMn and UW get for that concession? 
And then there's the 8 is a better number than 7 conversation. 

 

Sorry, but Husker, Hawkeye, Illini, Wildcat, Hoosier, or Boiler hockey ain't gonna solve Minnesota's or Wisconsin's decreasing hockey fan interest problems. 

Next question. 

[southpaw]

  On 4/12/2017 at 4:48 PM, cowboys5xsbs said:

Because UND=$$$$.  UND travels  better than any fanbase.  UND also puts tons of eyeballs onto the big ten network.  Have you seen some of the Big Ten games they look like ghost towns.  UND would pack the seats.  Iowa or Illinois would bring in some fans but they would nowhere close what you could get with UND.  Nebraska can't start a hockey team because they made an agreement with Omaha.  

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You're massively overestimating the number of UND fans who would watch/travel to B10 games.

[southpaw]

  On 4/12/2017 at 6:13 PM, The Sicatoka said:

UNDBIZ answered part of the question already. (There was confusion as to context; but, I'm saying 10% of what others get from BTN, so, it could be $4+ million annually.) 

How? Honestly. PMAB. Pissing, moaning, and bitching. By UMn and UW. 

Those two have suffered mightily at the turnstiles since BTHC. And that's an indicator of fan interest. And fan interest drives revenues across the board. Minnesota and Wisconsin hockey have suffered losses in fan interest since the loss of North Dakota on the schedule. Period. 

For UW, a 5000 avg att drop, for 20 games: 100000 tickets, at $20, $2,000,000 off the gate. 
For UMn, a 3000 avg att drop, for 20 games: 60000 tickets, at $30, $1,800,000 off the gate. 

But that is just gate; that's not the tertiary impacts of merchandise sales lost or secondary marketing. Say $4M to recover how much? And to get UND fans into those other rinks also? 

The other angles?
UMi, MSU, OSU, and PSU got their wet dream in the BTHC: Our Lady of South Bend <-- what's UMn and UW get for that concession? 
And then there's the 8 is a better number than 7 conversation. 

 

Sorry, but Husker, Hawkeye, Illini, Wildcat, Hoosier, or Boiler hockey ain't gonna solve Minnesota's or Wisconsin's decreasing hockey fan interest problems. 

Next question. 

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Where does your 3,000 average attendance drop for MN come from?  They averaged more than 9,000 fans per game last year.  Just because people don't show up doesn't mean the tickets aren't sold.  In the last year of the WCHA, Minnesota averaged about 9,600 fans.  So there are about 500 fewer fans per game buying tickets than in previous years.  Based on your numbers, that is $300,000.  

So, using your arbitrary number of $110,000 "lost" in merchandise and concessions per game, with only 8,000 people in the stands each person would need to spend $2 more per game on concessions.  So the cost of a beer just went up $0.50 and that hot dog is now $3.50 instead of $3.