to bad we didn't have this president a few yrs ago

[Fetch]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/433543/

[The Sicatoka]

You can't negotiate with an empty chair.

The ND tribes never sat down to talk about ways UND could keep that moniker. Quite frankly, their loss. Proof?

Northern Ute Tribe Chairman Gordon Howell: "“We are very proud that they use our name. It’s not just a name to us."

The Utes see it with pride.

The Sioux tribes? Nope. <-- Their loss.

[fargosioux]

UND lost its decades-old nickname after it could not obtain approval for use of the Fighting Sioux logo from both Sioux tribes in the state.

See the difference between the two situations? Thanks Stenehjem! Nobody else to blame. His agreement with the NCAA should have never included both tribes.

[darell1976]

See the difference between the two situations? Thanks Stenehjem! Nobody else to blame. His agreement with the NCAA should have never included both tribes.

But on the other hand, if the Spirit Lake wouldn't have remained neutral and choose to support the logo from the beginning he wouldn't have made a crappy deal with the NCAA (more years but get 2 tribal approvals). Lots of people to blame in the whole nickname mess from the NCAA to the AG, to the tribes.

[CMSioux]

You can't negotiate with an empty chair.

The ND tribes never sat down to talk about ways UND could keep that moniker. Quite frankly, their loss. Proof?

Northern Ute Tribe Chairman Gordon Howell: "“We are very proud that they use our name. It’s not just a name to us."

The Utes see it with pride.

The Sioux tribes? Nope. <-- Their loss.

I also think if you dig into the issues the Lakota Sioux in southcentral North Dakota/South Dakota and the Utah Utes are facing you would find the Lakota Sioux have much bigger social issues than a nickname by a school located 500 miles away - higher levels of poverty, alcoholism, tribal council dysfunction, unemployement - the highest level of poverty in the US. I think the Utes are in better shape when it comes to social issues.

Plus the NCAA had UND in their radar they needed to have a scapgoat and show that they were taking action on the nickname issue. Even if UND would have only needed to get the Spirit Lake Sioux on board someone from the NCAA had already challenged in the press that the vote of the Spirit Lake people that had occurred would not have been acceptable because what the NCAA agreement said was UND needed approval from the "Tribal Councils" - it never got that far for the NCAA to throw that stipulation out there because of the non -vote by the other tribe but it was something the NCAA had in their back pocket.

Bottom line - the NCAA found a small school (UND) they could make an example of - they backed off from Florida State because they were too big and powerful within the NCAA.

[MafiaMan]

Bottom line - the NCAA found a small school (UND) they could make an example of - they backed off from Florida State because they were too big and powerful within the NCAA.

Yup x 1000!

If the University of North Dakota had FSU's football program and Florida State was one of the kings of Division I college hockey, the situation would be reversed completely.

[ScottM]

the executive associate vice president for university relations

No wonder higher education is larded down with dead weight.

[ScottM]

Bottom line - the NCAA found a small school (UND) they could make an example of - they backed off from Florida State because they were too big and powerful within the NCAA.

Well that, and the fact Florida's congressional delegation raised holy hell from the start probably gave FSU a stronger hand.

North Dakota's response? *cricket chirps

[Oxbow6]

You can't negotiate with an empty chair.

The ND tribes never sat down to talk about ways UND could keep that moniker. Quite frankly, their loss.

The Sioux tribes? Nope. <-- Their loss.

This is a prime example as to why some will never have nice things................

[Teeder11]

the executive associate vice president for university relations

No wonder higher education is larded down with dead weight.

He actually works is ass off despite the cumbersome title.

[fightingsioux4life]

I think part of the blame lies with UND and UND boosters. If we had engaged the tribes over the past 50 years or so and developed a working relationship instead of calling anti-nickname activists "bed wetters" and other demeaning terms, we might have been able to dodge this bullet. But we didn't, so we got dinged and we can't do anything about it now. I have moved on, but not without some regrets and a little bitterness over how we were treated by the NCAA and people like Ron His Horse Is Thunder.

[mksioux]

Well that, and the fact Florida's congressional delegation raised holy hell from the start probably gave FSU a stronger hand.

North Dakota's response? *cricket chirps

Yes x 100. The difference between Florida and North Dakota politicians reacting to the original policy was night and day. Florida's Governor (Jeb Bush), the AG, and the Congressional delegation all raised holy hell and let the NCAA know in no uncertain terms that they were about to enter a fight they wanted no part of. North Dakota's politicians said virtually nothing. When Charles Kupchella is your #1 defender, you know you have a problem.

[fightingsioux4life]

Yes x 100. The difference between Florida and North Dakota politicians reacting to the original policy was night and day. Florida's Governor (Jeb Bush), the AG, and the Congressional delegation all raised holy hell and let the NCAA know in no uncertain terms that they were about to enter a fight they wanted no part of. North Dakota's politicians said virtually nothing. When Charles Kupchella is your #1 defender, you know you have a problem.

Wasn't Charlie Crist the governor of Florida by the time all of this crap hit the fan? Anyway, I don't know if it would have made a difference for us or not. Remember, Al Carlson and his buddies went to Indianapolis to try and talk the NCAA out of their policy and it didn't work. The NCAA wasn't going to budge on this.

[mksioux]

You can't negotiate with an empty chair.

After the namesake exception was created, State officials didn't meaningfully engage the tribes. Even after the settlement, nothing happened until the 11th hour. You can say you can't negotiate with an empty chair, but sometimes you can if you do it right. If they don't want to engage you privately, you engage them publicly until they come to the table. The problem with the North Dakota officials is that they were afraid of offering the Tribes anything tangible. Apparently they thought it would look too much like a bribe. But that was the only way they could have gotten a deal done. They needed to offer the Tribes scholarships, a percentage of merchandise, etc. They needed to offer them something that they couldn't refuse. Offer real and meaningful things publicly if Tribal officials were not receptive to private overtures. Let the people on those reservations know what their leaders were ignoring. If they had employed that strategy, there was a decent chance that the people on the Tribes would have demanded that their officials listen. It's possible that the tribal government was so dysfunctional that it never would have worked anyway, but I would have liked to see more of an effort. From an outsider's perspective, it just seemed like people that had the power to do something didn't care enough to do what needed to be done.

[mksioux]

Wasn't Charlie Crist the governor of Florida by the time all of this crap hit the fan? Anyway, I don't know if it would have made a difference for us or not. Remember, Al Carlson and his buddies went to Indianapolis to try and talk the NCAA out of their policy and it didn't work. The NCAA wasn't going to budge on this.

When the policy was first announced in 2005, Jeb Bush was Governor and Charlie Crist was the Attorney General. They both were very vocal.

By the time North Dakota officials went to Indianapolis, it was way too late in the game. There was an initial public backlash against the NCAA when the policy was first initiated. That was the time to go for the jugular.

[fightingsioux4life]

When the policy was first announced in 2005, Jeb Bush was Governor and Charlie Crist was the Attorney General. They both were very vocal.

By the time North Dakota officials went to Indianapolis, it was way too late in the game. There was an initial public backlash against the NCAA when the policy was first initiated. That was the time to go for the jugular.

This is a good point. Timing is very important when it comes to public issues like this.

[MafiaMan]

FSU was originally included on a list of "banned schools" because an NCAA official had mistakenly believed that the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma had condemned the use of "Seminoles" by Florida State. NCAA officials had to back-track quickly after the Oklahoma tribe asserted that this was not correct at all and was actually the opinion of David Narcomey, a member of the tribe's general council. The Oklahoma Seminole tribe was asked to vote on the resolution and it was shot down by an 18-2 vote in July of 2005.