Big 12 wants new subdivision in NCAA

[SiouxVolley]

http://www.cbssports...-to-mark-emmert

The Big 12 hosted NCAA president Mark Emmert during Thursday's league spring meeting session, and Bowlsby said a prominent topic during the meeting was the five major football conferences -- SEC, Big 12, Big Ten, ACC and Pac-12 -- having “the wherewithal to separate themselves from the rest of college athletics

[The Sicatoka]

Not surprised. To those who said I was too far out on this subject, what say you now?

[Hayduke]

I could see it developing into conferences with the winners and a few runners up guaranteed entry into an 8, 12, or 16 team playoff. It would make some huge...HUGE $$$$.

[Goon]

So, isn't this what kind of going on in college hockey as well right now? In a round about way with the formation of the Big Ten hockey Conference? There just isn't enough power schools yet.

Add Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby to the list of college football officials highlighting the divergent views of power conferences and the rest of Division I as it pertains to the way the NCAA governs.

You're talking about haves and have nots.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Goon

[Herd]

Not surprised. To those who said I was too far out on this subject, what say you now?

I'm sure that the Big 12 would also like a massive pot of gold, greater respect from the SEC, and casual Fridays. Wanting something, and actually getting it are two different things. You suggesting that the top 5 conferences would like to split isn't worth patting yourself on the back about, it is something we all know. Telling us this is going to happen in the fall of 2013, and it actually happening would be a little more remarkable.

What, you think this is the kind of thing that just happens because the Big 12 says they'd like it?

[farce poobah]

I'm sure that the Big 12 would also like a massive pot of gold, greater respect from the SEC, and casual Fridays. Wanting something, and actually getting it are two different things. You suggesting that the top 5 conferences would like to split isn't worth patting yourself on the back about, it is something we all know. Telling us this is going to happen in the fall of 2013, and it actually happening would be a little more remarkable.

What, you think this is the kind of thing that just happens because the Big 12 says they'd like it?

So many straw dogs, so little listening ability.

Five conferences are making the proposal ... the Big 12 happens to be the host of this set of discussions. But make no mistake, this is a pitch from all 5 conferences.

And, without doubt, those 5 commissioners went through the agenda and selected the person best suited to make the pitch. Bowlsby got the privilege of leading the presentation, for political reasons which I don't understand. He is a Moorhead State grad after all, which obviously makes him one of the elite.

Pretty clearly this kind of change doesn't happen in a year, or even in less than 5 years. But the discussions have to start sometime, and no doubt there will be lots and LOTS of meetings and preparing positions ... the politics of this are massively tricky for the Power Five.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm sure that the Big 12 would also like a massive pot of gold, greater respect from the SEC, and casual Fridays. Wanting something, and actually getting it are two different things. You suggesting that the top 5 conferences would like to split isn't worth patting yourself on the back about, it is something we all know. Telling us this is going to happen in the fall of 2013, and it actually happening would be a little more remarkable.

What, you think this is the kind of thing that just happens because the Big 12 says they'd like it?

Yes, they'd like that whole list; but, they didn't come out and ask for those because they knew they had little to no chance (or had casual Fridays already).

What they have done is start the discussions on something they think they can get. That is noteworthy.

Upon further review, by asking for their own subdivisions they are asking for their own pot of gold.

[Herd]

Yes, they'd like that whole list; but, they didn't come out and ask for those because they knew they had little to no chance (or had casual Fridays already).

What they have done is start the discussions on something they think they can get. That is noteworthy.

Upon further review, by asking for their own subdivisions they are asking for their own pot of gold.

So . . . are they adding scholarships, or forcing the lower FBS conferences down in scholarship? They won't separate themselves when all 119 teams are spending on scholarships at the same level in today's scenario, they just won't. Where are they drawing the split, and what is their logic for the split . . .scholarships, spending level, fans in the stands?? Is there a clear way to split?

SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC ||| AAC, CUSA, MWC, MAC, SBelt

Not a very clean break when you have schools in the bottom five outspending some in the top 5. It would be nice if the 13 conferences in FCS would split too (there actually is scholarship differences in FCS), but that doesn't do much to unite the division or form a successful championship. The bottom conferences, which want to be in the highest level of NCAA football, will go kicking and screaming from the table.

[zonadub]

So . . . are they adding scholarships, or forcing the lower FBS conferences down in scholarship? They won't separate themselves when all 119 teams are spending on scholarships at the same level in today's scenario, they just won't. Where are they drawing the split, and what is their logic for the split . . .scholarships, spending level, fans in the stands?? Is there a clear way to split?

SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC ||| AAC, CUSA, MWC, MAC, SBelt

Not a very clean break when you have schools in the bottom five outspending some in the top 5. It would be nice if the 13 conferences in FCS would split too (there actually is scholarship differences in FCS), but that doesn't do much to unite the division or form a successful championship. The bottom conferences, which want to be in the highest level of NCAA football, will go kicking and screaming from the table.

Maybe it will come down to paying the football players the cash 'assistance' stipend that was floated a few months back. Those in the top BCS division pay the stipend and those who don't are in the FCS, with no change in the number of scholarships...

[darell1976]

So . . . are they adding scholarships, or forcing the lower FBS conferences down in scholarship? They won't separate themselves when all 119 teams are spending on scholarships at the same level in today's scenario, they just won't. Where are they drawing the split, and what is their logic for the split . . .scholarships, spending level, fans in the stands?? Is there a clear way to split?

SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC ||| AAC, CUSA, MWC, MAC, SBelt

Not a very clean break when you have schools in the bottom five outspending some in the top 5. It would be nice if the 13 conferences in FCS would split too (there actually is scholarship differences in FCS), but that doesn't do much to unite the division or form a successful championship. The bottom conferences, which want to be in the highest level of NCAA football, will go kicking and screaming from the table.

I still don't understand how a win vs a DI non scholarship team counts towards the playoffs but a win vs a DII team that has scholarships don't. DI schools that don't have scholarships shouldn't be playing DI football.

[jdub27]

I still don't understand how a win vs a DI non scholarship team counts towards the playoffs but a win vs a DII team that has scholarships don't. DI schools that don't have scholarships shouldn't be playing DI football.

A lot of those "non-scholarship" teams offer many types of academic aid/scholarships instead of athletic scholarships. They are also able lure some pretty good athletes with their academics as well.

[82SiouxGuy]

So . . . are they adding scholarships, or forcing the lower FBS conferences down in scholarship? They won't separate themselves when all 119 teams are spending on scholarships at the same level in today's scenario, they just won't. Where are they drawing the split, and what is their logic for the split . . .scholarships, spending level, fans in the stands?? Is there a clear way to split?

SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC ||| AAC, CUSA, MWC, MAC, SBelt

Not a very clean break when you have schools in the bottom five outspending some in the top 5. It would be nice if the 13 conferences in FCS would split too (there actually is scholarship differences in FCS), but that doesn't do much to unite the division or form a successful championship. The bottom conferences, which want to be in the highest level of NCAA football, will go kicking and screaming from the table.

You are fixated on this scholarship number issue. As has been explained to you several times, there are many ways that the top group of conferences could separate themselves. As dakota said, paying a stipend to players could be the division. The lower level FBS conferences couldn't afford that stipend, other than a few individual schools. It's possible that they could change the number of scholarships, even if you don't think it's possible. The scholarship numbers can be changed at any time by the membership, it isn't written in stone. The BCS conferences could separate from the NCAA and form a new athletic organization. They would take most of the money from the DI basketball tournament and make huge money on football playoffs. Or the NCAA could allow them to set up their own playoff system in football just so they could keep the conferences in the NCAA for basketball. That would be in the best interests of most DI schools. They can't compete for the BCS football title already, but would still be able to make money from March Madness.

You just don't seem to understand the reasons that a split would potentially happen. It almost all comes down to dollars. The big conferences want more of it and they are getting tired of sharing with the smaller conferences. They see the potential windfall from a playoff system and don't want to share those dollars with lower level conferences that have very little chance of competing for the playoffs. It's all about the dollar signs.

[Herd]

You are fixated on this scholarship number issue. As has been explained to you several times, there are many ways that the top group of conferences could separate themselves. As dakota said, paying a stipend to players could be the division. The lower level FBS conferences couldn't afford that stipend, other than a few individual schools. It's possible that they could change the number of scholarships, even if you don't think it's possible. The scholarship numbers can be changed at any time by the membership, it isn't written in stone. The BCS conferences could separate from the NCAA and form a new athletic organization. They would take most of the money from the DI basketball tournament and make huge money on football playoffs. Or the NCAA could allow them to set up their own playoff system in football just so they could keep the conferences in the NCAA for basketball. That would be in the best interests of most DI schools. They can't compete for the BCS football title already, but would still be able to make money from March Madness.

You just don't seem to understand the reasons that a split would potentially happen. It almost all comes down to dollars. The big conferences want more of it and they are getting tired of sharing with the smaller conferences. They see the potential windfall from a playoff system and don't want to share those dollars with lower level conferences that have very little chance of competing for the playoffs. It's all about the dollar signs.

An you keep saying that the split comes down to dollars. . . thank you captain obvious. You might as well be telling me that "Hunger is a problem in Africa". That's how broad your statement is, and how little it does to suggest any fix to the problem.

The best interest of college football in the United States is my primary concern, so I could care less about the top 5 conferences whining about money, and how they can get more. If I was the NCAA, I'd be fighting for the best interest of college football, not pandering to greedy conference conmissioners trying to destroy college football and the lower divisions.

[UNDColorado]

An you keep saying that the split comes down to dollars. . . thank you captain obvious. You might as well be telling me that "Hunger is a problem in Africa". That's how broad your statement is, and how little it does to suggest any fix to the problem.

The best interest of college football in the United States is my primary concern, so I could care less about the top 5 conferences whining about money, and how they can get more. If I was the NCAA, I'd be fighting for the best interest of college football, not pandering to greedy conference conmissioners trying to destroy college football and the lower divisions.

I agree with your second paragraph 100%. This would be the right thing to do. However, reality of the matter is greed often dictates actions. The bigger conferences don't care about the little guys and they will eventually get what they want.

I see a lot of similarities in politics in that often times the right thing to do is fairly obvious, but the end decisions are often dictated by party (conference) or by corporations (advertising / TV $).

[82SiouxGuy]

An you keep saying that the split comes down to dollars. . . thank you captain obvious. You might as well be telling me that "Hunger is a problem in Africa". That's how broad your statement is, and how little it does to suggest any fix to the problem.

The best interest of college football in the United States is my primary concern, so I could care less about the top 5 conferences whining about money, and how they can get more. If I was the NCAA, I'd be fighting for the best interest of college football, not pandering to greedy conference conmissioners trying to destroy college football and the lower divisions.

Repeat after me, "The NCAA is a voluntary organization." The member schools of the big 5 conferences are voluntary members of the NCAA. If they decide to leave the NCAA, and take the money with them, they can do so without penalty. What is the incentive for the big 5 to "do what is in the best interest of college football"? The BCS is already separate from the NCAA, although the NCAA does have an interest in it. If those conferences decide that it is in their best interest to separate, they will do so. If the NCAA wants to keep them, it may be advantageous to allow the big 5 to set up their own football division rather than leave totally. The NCAA is not in control of this situation. It is up to the schools that belong to the big 5 conferences. They are in control of their own destiny. It may come down to what combination of money and other considerations are best for those conferences, and how effective the NCAA can be in selling them on a package.

There is no "fix" to this situation. The final outcome will most likely come down to a solution that may or may not be negotiated. But I can assure you that any solution will favor the big 5 conferences, they are holding all of the cards.

[Herd]

Repeat after me, "The NCAA is a voluntary organization." The member schools of the big 5 conferences are voluntary members of the NCAA. If they decide to leave the NCAA, and take the money with them, they can do so without penalty. What is the incentive for the big 5 to "do what is in the best interest of college football"? The BCS is already separate from the NCAA, although the NCAA does have an interest in it. If those conferences decide that it is in their best interest to separate, they will do so. If the NCAA wants to keep them, it may be advantageous to allow the big 5 to set up their own football division rather than leave totally. The NCAA is not in control of this situation. It is up to the schools that belong to the big 5 conferences. They are in control of their own destiny. It may come down to what combination of money and other considerations are best for those conferences, and how effective the NCAA can be in selling them on a package.

There is no "fix" to this situation. The final outcome will most likely come down to a solution that may or may not be negotiated. But I can assure you that any solution will favor the big 5 conferences, they are holding all of the cards.

The top 5 conferences . . .

• Already have the bottom 5 locked out of the NC picture with virtually no access by the lower 5 conferences
  
• They are taking 95% of the TV revenue
  
• They have 119 teams in the divison to play and get easy wins against
  
• etc, etc, etc, in their favor
  
• What more could they possible want to take away from the MWC, SBelt, MAC, CUSA, AAC?
  

If they try to form a new divison that is potentially viewed as discriminatory to the lower 5 conferences who are selling their soles to play at the "Top Level of College" football, there will be legal action. Therefore, there will need to be tangible criteria that separates the top 5 and bottom 5 conferences (schollies, money, fans, etc), not pipedreams and arbitrary money suggestions.

[Hayduke]

The top 5 conferences . . .

• Already have the bottom 5 locked out of the NC picture with virtually no access by the lower 5 conferences
  
• They are taking 95% of the TV revenue
  
• They have 119 teams in the divison to play and get easy wins against
  
• etc, etc, etc, in their favor
  
• What more could they possible want to take away from the MWC, SBelt, MAC, CUSA, AAC?
  

If they try to form a new divison that is potentially viewed as discriminatory to the lower 5 conferences who are selling their soles to play at the "Top Level of College" football, there will be legal action. Therefore, there will need to be tangible criteria that separates the top 5 and bottom 5 conferences (schollies, money, fans, etc), not pipedreams and arbitrary money suggestions.

I don't get it.

Why would they sell the bottom of their shoes? I mean, that would make it hard to walk on the hot pavement in the summer. Unless, of course, they were going to wear an alternative form of footwear.

[Herd]

I don't get it.

Why would they sell the bottom of their shoes? I mean, that would make it hard to walk on the hot pavement in the summer. Unless, of course, they were going to wear an alternative form of footwear.

As usual, you bring much to the discussion.

[Hayduke]

As usual, you bring much to the discussion.

Well, if you can't use the English language properly, why should we believe the word of a tractor mechanic?

[The Sicatoka]

Repeat after me, "The NCAA is a voluntary organization." The member schools of the big 5 conferences are voluntary members of the NCAA. If they decide to leave the NCAA, and take the money with them, they can do so without penalty.

For a group that recently, gleefully told UND fans "the NCAA is a voluntary organization" they sure don't seem to understand that when it could come around and gore their ox (or bison).

[82SiouxGuy]

The top 5 conferences . . .

• Already have the bottom 5 locked out of the NC picture with virtually no access by the lower 5 conferences
  
• They are taking 95% of the TV revenue
  
• They have 119 teams in the divison to play and get easy wins against
  
• etc, etc, etc, in their favor
  
• What more could they possible want to take away from the MWC, SBelt, MAC, CUSA, AAC?
  

If they try to form a new divison that is potentially viewed as discriminatory to the lower 5 conferences who are selling their soles to play at the "Top Level of College" football, there will be legal action. Therefore, there will need to be tangible criteria that separates the top 5 and bottom 5 conferences (schollies, money, fans, etc), not pipedreams and arbitrary money suggestions.

The bottom conferences would have no cause of action. THE NCAA IS A VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATION. THE BIG SCHOOLS CAN LEAVE IF THEY WANT. IF THE NCAA DECIDED TO GIVE THEM THEIR OWN DIVISION, IT WOULD BE A DECISION OF THE MEMBERSHIP. Just because the bottom conferences didn't like it doesn't mean that they would have a choice in the matter. The NCAA could create any criteria they want to set up the new division, and the small conferences could either accept it or leave. They would lose any attempts at legal action.

[Herd]

The bottom conferences would have no cause of action. THE NCAA IS A VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATION. THE BIG SCHOOLS CAN LEAVE IF THEY WANT. IF THE NCAA DECIDED TO GIVE THEM THEIR OWN DIVISION, IT WOULD BE A DECISION OF THE MEMBERSHIP. Just because the bottom conferences didn't like it doesn't mean that they would have a choice in the matter. The NCAA could create any criteria they want to set up the new division, and the small conferences could either accept it or leave. They would lose any attempts at legal action.

It surely could present legal anti-trust issues if the Top 5 conferences were allowed to form their own Tier for Football within the NCAA. Specific criteria would need to be outlined, and if teams in the Bottom 5 conferences individually met those criteria, it would Surely be a probelm. Yes the NCAA is a volutary organization, so what? Their membership criteria must be specifically outlined for all to follow. If UNLV in the MWC (or other schools) are spending more, with greater fans support and the same scholarship levels as the bottom dwellers in the top 5 conferences, they could take legal action to be included in this new Tier of football. Not sure what you are thinking, other than blowing a gasket over things you aparently do not understand. If the top 5 conference moved to 90 scholarhsips, what would prevent UNLV from moving to 90 also?

If a similar situation happened in FCS with a split within the NCAA, and the Southland Conference (which Sponsore the Maximum 63 scholarships) was told that they were be being moved into the Lower FCS Tier because overall they did not spend a much and were not as strong, Individual schools in the Southland like Sam Houston and Central AR could raise holy hell and take legal action. The criterial outlined by the NCAA for an FCS split would need to be applied consistenly to every school involved, not just by conference. If Sam Houston was in the top 10 in fan attendance Max scholarships, and spending, they could take legal action to ensure they would not be kept in the lower tier. It would likely be on the NCAA to find a way that Sam Houston could be included in the Upper Tier, because they meet all the requirements. Just being in a certain conference is NOT a legal Criteria to discriminate against them.

Example:

FCS Tier 1 Championship: Big Sky, CAA, NEC, MVFC, OVC, SoCon (6)

FCS Tier 2 Championship: Southland, Big South, Patriot, Pioneer, MEAC, SWAC (6)

[Herd]

For a group that recently, gleefully told UND fans "the NCAA is a voluntary organization" they sure don't seem to understand that when it could come around and gore their ox (or bison).

Why is this situation having any more of an impact on NDSU than any other school in the FCS? Sorry, I don't understand your statement.

Yes, the NCAA is a voluntary organization, so if they tell you to change your nickname if you want to stay, you don't have much choice unless you want to form a 1 team conference in a new Organization and play with yourself. In the case of 5 conferences possibly leaving the NCAA, I guess they wouldn't be playing with themselves, would they. That said, no way that anyone will be leaving the NCAA anytime soon, too much red tape to form a new organization. That venture would go something like year 1 beer profits at TCF, not so good.

[82SiouxGuy]

Why is this situation having any more of an impact on NDSU than any other school in the FCS? Sorry, I don't understand your statement.

Yes, the NCAA is a voluntary organization, so if they tell you to change your nickname if you want to stay, you don't have much choice unless you want to form a 1 team conference in a new Organization and play with yourself. In the case of 5 conferences possibly leaving the NCAA, I guess they wouldn't be playing with themselves, would they. That said, no way that anyone will be leaving the NCAA anytime soon, too much red tape to form a new organization. That venture would go something like year 1 beer profits at TCF, not so good.

The big 5 could set up their own organization and play just teams within that organization if they want. But they could also arrange to play schools from the NCAA if both organizations agree to it. Remember, NAIA schools play NCAA schools all of the time. If cross organization games are allowed, each organization would decide how to account for those games. With the potential dollars available, there is no such thing as too much red tape. If the big 5 decide that it is in their best interest to do so, they will be out of the NCAA very quickly.

The NCAA certainly has the ability to design criteria that would allow only conferences to fit into a new division. The criteria would have to be passed by a majority of the membership, and that would very likely destroy any chance of an individual school being allowed to sue. Right now an individual school can't decide to spend whatever they want. They have limits based on their division. And they can't move up a division just because they want to. They have to get approval by the NCAA and get invited to a conference at the new level. Sam Houston State can't decide to offer 85 scholarships next year just because they want. And they can't just be part of FBS or the BCS because they want to. How is that any different? It isn't. Marian (Ind.) couldn't sue to be part of the NCAA Division I just because they won the NAIA football championship, no matter how much money they are able to spend. They would have to apply to the NCAA, follow all of the procedures, follow the criteria, and they may be allowed to reach that level at some point. NDSU can't just be part of FBS football or the BCS. It doesn't matter if they sell thousands of tickets more than some FBS schools. It doesn't matter how much money they have to spend. If NDSU wanted to move up they would have to apply, follow procedures, GET INVITED TO JOIN A CONFERENCE AT THAT LEVEL, and then they may be allowed to move up. But if they sued they would be laughed out of court.

[Herd]

The big 5 could set up their own organization and play just teams within that organization if they want. But they could also arrange to play schools from the NCAA if both organizations agree to it. Remember, NAIA schools play NCAA schools all of the time. If cross organization games are allowed, each organization would decide how to account for those games. With the potential dollars available, there is no such thing as too much red tape. If the big 5 decide that it is in their best interest to do so, they will be out of the NCAA very quickly.

The NCAA certainly has the ability to design criteria that would allow only conferences to fit into a new division. The criteria would have to be passed by a majority of the membership, and that would very likely destroy any chance of an individual school being allowed to sue. Right now an individual school can't decide to spend whatever they want. They have limits based on their division. And they can't move up a division just because they want to. They have to get approval by the NCAA and get invited to a conference at the new level. Sam Houston State can't decide to offer 85 scholarships next year just because they want. And they can't just be part of FBS or the BCS because they want to. How is that any different? It isn't. Marian (Ind.) couldn't sue to be part of the NCAA Division I just because they won the NAIA football championship, no matter how much money they are able to spend. They would have to apply to the NCAA, follow all of the procedures, follow the criteria, and they may be allowed to reach that level at some point. NDSU can't just be part of FBS football or the BCS. It doesn't matter if they sell thousands of tickets more than some FBS schools. It doesn't matter how much money they have to spend. If NDSU wanted to move up they would have to apply, follow procedures, GET INVITED TO JOIN A CONFERENCE AT THAT LEVEL, and then they may be allowed to move up. But if they sued they would be laughed out of court.

Sam Houston wouldn't sue to be part of the FBS silly, I did not suggest that. Sam Houston is in FCS. Teams already in FBS would have that option if they were told that they would not longer be allowed to be at the top level of College FB. If a school was spending, has fan support, and scholarships at the same levels as teams in the top 5 conferences that were creating a separate FBS Tier, sueing would be an option. The top 5 conferences have to come up with a way to 'legally' separate themselves, and that's not easy. And yes, individual schools can, outside of scholarship, decide to spend whatever then want, whatever their program can bring in. How do you think Texas is spending $100 million on athletics? Do MN and MI spend the same on FB, Athletics? Absolutely not, they spend what their university can generate.

As for the top 5 conferences starting a new ncaa like organization . . . 2 years minimum to make that happen, and likely 5. They can threaten to do that, but really, that's the last thing they want. They would much prefer to keep BB and all sports in the NCAA.