Standing Rock Vote - Measure 2

[ScottM]

There's the problem:

The NCAA now has all the power in this situation because they have a signed settlement agreement.

And honestly, Standing Rock isn't going to change their stance so does the NCAA's stance matter?

And even if SR & SL "gave" UND the Sioux moniker today and forever, the NC$$ would simply hold up the agreement and say "Tough darts! They should have done that years ago like it says at page ...".

[tnt]

If it means losing "fans" such as yourself I am fine with that. There will be many more generations coming up to take your place.

Exactly, but I have a feeling that guys like Dave K. won't be a man of his word and boycott anything involving UND athletics. But at that point I suppose we could boycott him on this site.

[Siouxperfan7]

Exactly, but I have a feeling that guys like Dave K. won't be a man of his word and boycott anything involving UND athletics. But at that point I suppose we could boycott him on this site.

June 13th chould be the offical "Boycott DakeK Day"!! everyone can block is posts, then no one can respond to ihs rediculous statements!! I'm game..who's with me

[scpa0305]

Exactly, but I have a feeling that guys like Dave K. won't be a man of his word and boycott anything involving UND athletics. But at that point I suppose we could boycott him on this site.

I am all for keeping the nickname because I believe that at some point this issue can be resolved with the NCAA, however, I would never boycott UND athletics. No matter what their nickname is, I will always be a UND fan and will always attend their games. No, I am not Dave K. (reasoning I responded and bolded that text) but I can't believe someone would actually boycott sioux athletics because some other people voted to get rid of the name. Now if a business owner put out a large campaign to get rid of the name, I would definitely boycott that business.

[Siouxperfan7]

I am all for keeping the nickname because I believe that at some point this issue can be resolved with the NCAA, however, I would never boycott UND athletics. No matter what their nickname is, I will always be a UND fan and will always attend their games. No, I am not Dave K. (reasoning I responded and bolded that text) but I can't believe someone would actually boycott sioux athletics because some other people voted to get rid of the name. Now if a business owner put out a large campaign to get rid of the name, I would definitely boycott that business.

In the eyes of the NCAA, the issue is resolved. They have the signed settlement. Keep the name, deal with the sanctions. NOTHING is going to change their miand or get them to back down.

[82SiouxGuy]

I am all for keeping the nickname because I believe that at some point this issue can be resolved with the NCAA, however, I would never boycott UND athletics. No matter what their nickname is, I will always be a UND fan and will always attend their games. No, I am not Dave K. (reasoning I responded and bolded that text) but I can't believe someone would actually boycott sioux athletics because some other people voted to get rid of the name. Now if a business owner put out a large campaign to get rid of the name, I would definitely boycott that business.

I've asked before, but you have never explained how this issue can be resolved with the NCAA. UND and the state signed a settlement agreement. The NCAA is living up to their end of that agreement. They have a legal right to do what they are doing. Furthermore, they are getting what they want. Changing the policy for UND would cause problems with more than a dozen other schools that made changes in nickname and/or logo because of the policy. Why would the NCAA ever back down? No one has ever explained this part to us.

[jodcon]

June 13th chould be the offical "Boycott DakeK Day"!! everyone can block is posts, then no one can respond to ihs rediculous statements!! I'm game..who's with me

I actually would rather listen to Dave than some of the others who have drifted in and out of here lately, at least I understand his position and have a somewhat clear view of what he believes, some of these other guys are all over the board on what they think and fly off on tangents that have no relevance or are totally false, gives me a headache just trying to follow along.

[ScottM]

I am all for keeping the nickname because I believe that at some point this issue can be resolved with the NCAA,

Based on what? And relying on vain hope and aspirational desire don't count.

[82SiouxGuy]

I actually would rather listen to Dave than some of the others who have drifted in and out of here lately, at least I understand his position and have a somewhat clear view of what he believes, some of these other guys are all over the board on what they think and fly off on tangents that have no relevance or are totally false, gives me a headache just trying to follow along.

I'm tempted to put them all on Ignore starting June 13th, and only think about dealing with them if I need to in the future, like if we have to deal with the constitutional amendment issue.

[scpa0305]

Based on what? And relying on vain hope and aspirational desire don't count.

Yeah, I don't count then. I simply would hope that a group of people (NCAA) could find ok for us to use the name due to it not offending the group they think is offended. That's it. That's all I got. All you guy s have your answers but there is always a first for everything (ex. Braun had his steroid failure overturned....that had never happened in the MLB before but they brought forward their story or evidence and it was overturned; a little off topic I know but I wanted to think of an example where if something is truly right...than a right action should eventually follow).

[jdub27]

Yeah, I don't count then. I simply would hope that a group of people (NCAA) could find ok for us to use the name due to it not offending the group they think is offended. That's it. That's all I got. All you guy s have your answers but there is always a first for everything (ex. Braun had his steroid failure overturned....that had never happened in the MLB before but they brought forward their story or evidence and it was overturned; a little off topic I know but I wanted to think of an example where if something is truly right...than a right action should eventually follow).

Braun's steriod failure was overturned on a technicality on how the sample was handled, it had nothing to do with the failed test. There is no more technicalities or loopholes in this case. The settlement is signed by all parties. The date for tribal approval has passed. Spirit Lake lost their lawsuit. The NCAA doesn't (nor do they have to) care about North Dakota laws.

[The Sicatoka]

Yeah, I don't count then. [i simply would hope that a group of people (NCAA) could find ok for us to use the name due to it not offending the group they think is offended. That's it. That's all I got.

I understand your hope, and here's why I don't share it with you.

I've posted this a bunch, so I'll just paraphrase it here:

The settlement agreement talks about what happens to UND if the NCAA were to eliminate the "namesake tribe approval" exemption rules. That's in writing, signed by the NCAA and the State of ND. The State didn't put that in.

By bringing up eliminating all exemptions it is a clear sign of what the NCAA's end game is, and it's not allowing more monikers but instead eliminating *all* such monikers (and I'm looking at you Florida State, Utah, and Central Michigan).

[ScottM]

By bringing up eliminating all exemptions it is a clear sign of what the NCAA's end game is, and it's not allowing more monikers but instead eliminating *all* such monikers (and I'm looking at you Florida State, Utah, and Central Michigan).

That's the NC$$'s end game, and I believe why they refuse to budge in the face of litigation, legislation and Al Carlson's womanly charms. if they let UND off the hook, they lose their ability to eventually tell the schools that currently have exemptions that those exemptions will sunset at some point. The hypocrisy of the NC$$ policy probably grates to no end on the nerves of those whose agenda is to remove NA imagery from high school, college and pro sports. At some point the NC$$ will eliminate that inconvenient little thorn in its butt. The possible upside to that move is that it may force enough people in Congress, including NoDak's always-MIA congressional delegation, to finally tell them "Enough is enough!".

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, I don't count then. I simply would hope that a group of people (NCAA) could find ok for us to use the name due to it not offending the group they think is offended. That's it. That's all I got. All you guy s have your answers but there is always a first for everything (ex. Braun had his steroid failure overturned....that had never happened in the MLB before but they brought forward their story or evidence and it was overturned; a little off topic I know but I wanted to think of an example where if something is truly right...than a right action should eventually follow).

Braun got off on a legal technicality, not because someone thought it was the right thing to do. The courier took the sample home and put it in his basement over the weekend. That breaks the chain of evidence and there was no way to prove that someone couldn't have gotten access to the sample and tampered with it. The chances of that happening are very small. But that protection is in the legal system to protect against those rare occurences. That is what got Ryan Braun off the hook.

Nothing like that is possible in this case. No one can go back to the courts unless the other side breaks the agreement. So UND can't touch the NCAA unless the NCAA screws up in some major way. The NCAA pays some high powered attornies to prevent that. It isn't going to happen. And you are overlooking every Sioux tribe in the country except Spirit Lake. They are all on record against UND using the nickname. Why would the NCAA suddenly change their policy, and cause all of those other headaches with other schools, to support Spirit Lake when all of the other tribes still oppose it?

[scpa0305]

I understand your hope, and here's why I don't share it with you.

I've posted this a bunch, so I'll just paraphrase it here:

The settlement agreement talks about what happens to UND if the NCAA were to eliminate the "namesake tribe approval" exemption rules. That's in writing, signed by the NCAA and the State of ND. The State didn't put that in.

By bringing up eliminating all exemptions it is a clear sign of what the NCAA's end game is, and it's not allowing more monikers but instead eliminating *all* such monikers (and I'm looking at you Florida State, Utah, and Central Michigan).

I would agree with that....one goes they all go. And no, I don't care about deadlines or any of that, I know FSU got their approval within their alloted time frame and we didn't. But at the end of the day, both tribes appear to not be offended (or all three for that matter).

[scpa0305]

Braun got off on a legal technicality, not because someone thought it was the right thing to do. The courier took the sample home and put it in his basement over the weekend. That breaks the chain of evidence and there was no way to prove that someone couldn't have gotten access to the sample and tampered with it. The chances of that happening are very small. But that protection is in the legal system to protect against those rare occurences. That is what got Ryan Braun off the hook.

Nothing like that is possible in this case. No one can go back to the courts unless the other side breaks the agreement. So UND can't touch the NCAA unless the NCAA screws up in some major way. The NCAA pays some high powered attornies to prevent that. It isn't going to happen. And you are overlooking every Sioux tribe in the country except Spirit Lake. They are all on record against UND using the nickname. Why would the NCAA suddenly change their policy, and cause all of those other headaches with other schools, to support Spirit Lake when all of the other tribes still oppose it?

Have the tribes of those other schools tried so hard to keep the name? No responses about how late they were, I could care less.

[82SiouxGuy]

I would agree with that....one goes they all go. And no, I don't care about deadlines or any of that, I know FSU got their approval within their alloted time frame and we didn't. But at the end of the day, both tribes appear to not be offended (or all three for that matter).

If you own a house, do you not care about the dates that payments are due? If you own a car, do you not care about the dates that car payments are due? Do you file your income taxes by April 15th each year? Are there penalties for any of these if you don't follow the dates? Dates were set for the policy and appeals, and dates were written into the settlement. If there are dates written into a legal contract you have to follow them or face the penalty written into the contract. What is so hard to understand about that? You can't just ignore deadlines an operate on your own schedule.

[82SiouxGuy]

Have the tribes of those other schools tried so hard to keep the name? No responses about how late they were, I could care less.

Those other schools understood deadlines and the fact that they have to be followed or pay the price. The schools that could not get something done by the deadline accepted their fate and either changed the nickname and/or logo, or they're Alcorn State and they accepted the sanctions. It seems that some nickname supporters can't understand the concept of deadlines.

[scpa0305]

If you own a house, do you not care about the dates that payments are due? If you own a car, do you not care about the dates that car payments are due? Do you file your income taxes by April 15th each year? Are there penalties for any of these if you don't follow the dates? Dates were set for the policy and appeals, and dates were written into the settlement. If there are dates written into a legal contract you have to follow them or face the penalty written into the contract. What is so hard to understand about that? You can't just ignore deadlines an operate on your own schedule.

There is one huge difference, those deadlines you just listed have to do with money owed to another party. Money makes the world go round....people/businesses need it to operate. The deadline we are talking about is more of a moral topic, what is right/what is wrong and who is offended or not offended. This isn't your typical payment deadline, the other party isn't out soemthing of value (assets) because it is late. You have to look at the NCAA's reasoning for initially bringing this topic up in the first place....because they felt the name and logo disgraced a group of people. But obviously it does not! You keep bringing up the deadline issue, that is a moot point to me. It is like if you put a deadline as to when a convicted murdered has time to appeal his own crime with factual evidence....when the DNA results come back and prove he is innocent (no matter when that is) the guy is free. End of story.

[dmksioux]

There is one huge difference, those deadlines you just listed have to do with money owed to another party. Money makes the world go round....people/businesses need it to operate. The deadline we are talking about is more of a moral topic, what is right/what is wrong and who is offended or not offended. This isn't your typical payment deadline, the other party isn't out soemthing of value (assets) because it is late. You have to look at the NCAA's reasoning for initially bringing this topic up in the first place....because they felt the name and logo disgraced a group of people. But obviously it does not! You keep bringing up the deadline issue, that is a moot point to me. It is like if you put a deadline as to when a convicted murdered has time to appeal his own crime with factual evidence....when the DNA results come back and prove he is innocent (no matter when that is) the guy is free. End of story.

Unfortunately you are wrong. The Standing Rock Tribal Council disagrees with you, and (as 82 Sioux Guy pointed out earlier) so do a majority of Sioux Tribes in the Dakotas. All of whom have gone on record as wanting UND to discontinue the name.

[scpa0305]

Unfortunately you are wrong. The Standing Rock Tribal Council disagrees with you, and (as 82 Sioux Guy pointed out earlier) so do a majority of Sioux Tribes in the Dakotas. All of whom have gone on record as wanting UND to discontinue the name.

Well that I was unaware of, I stand corrected. Which other tribes disapprove? Was it the Standing Rock tribe that wouldn't let their own people speak up on this topic? I'm guessing there is something corrupt going on there.

[dmksioux]

Well that I was unaware of, I stand corrected. Which other tribes disapprove? Was it the Standing Rock tribe that wouldn't let their own people speak up on this topic? I'm guessing there is something corrupt going on there.

You can find the resolutions by the various groups/tribes here. Most of them are from the late 90's/early 2000's but none of them have issued anything new in support of the name other than Spirit Lake.

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/resolutions.html

[82SiouxGuy]

Well that I was unaware of, I stand corrected. Which other tribes disapprove? Was it the Standing Rock tribe that wouldn't let their own people speak up on this topic? I'm guessing there is something corrupt going on there.

The Standing Rock government operates almost exactly like the US Government. Do you ever get a chance to vote on any issue related to the US Government, other than voting for President, Senator or House of Representatives? No you don't. You live in Minnesota. Do you ever get to vote on an initiated measure or referendum? No you don't. Minnesota doesn't allow that. Half the states don't allow it. Standing Rock doesn't allow it. That is how their government is set up. Don't they have a right to set up their government how they want? That is the form of government that they have set up. Why should you be able to tell them that they have to have a vote on the nickname issue if they don't normally allow that and don't want to allow that?

[82SiouxGuy]

There is one huge difference, those deadlines you just listed have to do with money owed to another party. Money makes the world go round....people/businesses need it to operate. The deadline we are talking about is more of a moral topic, what is right/what is wrong and who is offended or not offended. This isn't your typical payment deadline, the other party isn't out soemthing of value (assets) because it is late. You have to look at the NCAA's reasoning for initially bringing this topic up in the first place....because they felt the name and logo disgraced a group of people. But obviously it does not! You keep bringing up the deadline issue, that is a moot point to me. It is like if you put a deadline as to when a convicted murdered has time to appeal his own crime with factual evidence....when the DNA results come back and prove he is innocent (no matter when that is) the guy is free. End of story.

Contracts to pay for a house, or a car, are contracts. The settlement is a contract. Both the NCAA and UND/State of North Dakota signed it. Dates in contracts can be changed if both parties want, and if they both have an incentive to do it. That becomes an amended contract. The NCAA has no motive or incentive to change because they have what they want. In that case we revert back to the same situation as a house payment or car payment. You can't just change the terms of the contract when you want, or because you don't think it's fair. I don't know what you do for a living, but I hope you don't have deadlines in your job because you don't seem to understand their importance.