ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[bincitysioux]

Awesome news!!! This keeps alive the possibility of the continued existence of UND Fighting Sioux athletics. To those of you who insist this will kill sports at UND.... because you have been such condescending jerks about this, I can't wait to rub your noses in it after you've been proven wrong.

And a small part of me can't wait until I can be arguing with you over who has a better chance at winning the ACHA National Championship.......................North Dakota or Liberty?.......................

[Chewey]

OK Chewey, I'll take the bait. April 19 must be the next big date in SL v. NCAA. So what do you believe the federal court is going to do? Injunction against the NCAA? I'm pretty sure SL will be lucky to still have an open case on April 20.

You may be right. You asked what effect this may or may not have on the federal litigation and 4/19 is the next date and we'll know if it has any effect at all.

[bincitysioux]

We will get to see how Sioux County votes & hopefully it will give SL some momentum

It doesn't matter how Sioux County votes. Sioux County makes up about 1/5 of the Standing Rock vote. The deadline for Standing Rock's vote is nearly 2 years gone by.......................

[bincitysioux]

I would never go to a ncaa sponsored event again

And that's fine. I doubt they'd miss you. I think though that the University and their student-athletes would probably prefer to go to NCAA events.

[bincitysioux]

The NCAA is nothing more than a bully. Don't be afraid of the bully, punch him in the mouth. He isn't half as tough as you think he is. I can't believe how spineless some people are on this topic. I'm grateful that those of you who feel that way are in the minority overall (not on this forum).

You are the spineless one. Your allegiance is to a cartoon character...........................

[bincitysioux]

Losing the name will hurt UND and its fans, except for the fake fans who would be willing to accept a new nickname.

As far as UND fans go, you are the "fakest" of them all.......................

[82SiouxGuy]

As far as UND fans go, you are the "fakest" of them all.......................

He isn't a UND fan, he is a Fighting Sioux fan. He would rather have UND end the athletic program than give up the nickname. That doesn't sound like a UND fan.

[bincitysioux]

You people amaze me with your insane theories.

You, sir, amaze all of us with your assinine presumptions........................

[bincitysioux]

This a matter of censorship. You tell me, is there anything in the NCAA bylaws legally giving them the right to censor what a team calls itself?

The NCAA is a VOLUNTARY orgranization.

North Dakota is a VOLUNTARY member of said organization. If North Dakota chooses they don't agree with the NCAA's VOLUNTARY rules and regulations, they can choose to particapate in another athletic organization.

Like NAIA and ACHA.................

[bincitysioux]

Dave, are you going to be this excited and delusional when the Big Sky votes us out of the conference too?

He won't care.................

[bincitysioux]

The NCAA is the only enourmous establishment that is going to be brought to their collective knees. The more fight they put up against North Dakota and Spirit Lake, they worse off they are going to end up being damaged in the long run. If they don't give up soon there could possibly end up not even being an NCAA anymore by the time all of this is done and over with. All of college sports could end up being reconfigured under an entirely new organization the way things are going.

I see now that I have lost an hour of my life by wasting my time replying to DaveK's posts...........................

[WYOBISONMAN]

I can see a huge push by NDSU to stick a knife in UND athletics.

Are you completely stupid? This is a terrible ruling for all of higher ed, not just UND. Maybe if you had actually attended something other than Aakers Business College you would understand this.

[bincitysioux]

I've also wondered about this. The fact that King Al's law has no teeth leads me to believe UND could officially drop the name and just tell the state to !%$# off, however it would be a poor move politically and would likely result in a sharp decrease in state appropriations (which UND and every other public school need).

Would it though? The legislature voted in favor of repealing Carlson's Folley................................

[UND-FB-FAN]

Today brings forth an unfortunate set of emotions.

In being optimistic, I hope the correct majority decision will be made; however, it is doubtful. It truthfully is horrible to think this state will have only one major (division I) athletic program in the next couple years if the correct actions are not taken. Individuals who support the nickname can speak within terms based on history, tradition, and hope if they want, but I anticipate they realize those are all subjective, imaginary concepts. They have no empirical form or objectivity. The realism in all this is we are fighting to keep a name. If you are an individual who believes our program’s recognition, success, and loyalty can only be persevered if we maintain the nickname, well, that is unfortunate. Ultimately, athletics will only continue to grow if we expand our target area to other states and areas of the country. We cannot successfully do that when we are an NCAA sanctioned school. To fight for only a name this long is unbearably incompetent, despite whatever history, tradition, and honor it contains. Ultimately, as University of North Dakota supporters, alumni, and students, we will continue to support the nickname- it just won’t be “official”. The NCAA is the governing body- to believe we can exist while acting against their rule is absurd. This is not just a bully. You can fight off a bully and win; you can’t win against the very individual that makes your existence (UND athletics) possible. It really is disturbing to focus on the mindset some individuals possess. Of course, I guess, we could remove ourselves from NCAA governed athletics? I for one do not fully agree with the “bully” analogy, but rather would like to focus on a subjective vs. objective example. The nickname is not what we focus our greatest pride and support on. The accomplishments of the student-athletes and the state of North Dakota are what we should pride ourselves on. If we put most of our pride into only the nickname, and not the empirical concepts and principles of the university, then we are not supporting expansion, higher education, decision-making, etc.

I conclude with a very common yet, in my opinion, rational belief. Do we only want UND ATHLETICS to be known for its nickname, or do we want to support the student-athletes, coaches, and ability to grow and expand into the future. If you want to support the potential the UND athletic program possesses, focusing on a nickname will impede that ultimate goal. I can agree with some nickname supporters that overall athletic program degradation is not certain if the nickname is maintained, but I am certain that future progression and advancement will not be possible if it is kept. Hopefully, our state realizes the University of North Dakota athletic program represents much more than just a nickname. It represents a process that allows INDIVIDUALS to come together, accomplish great goals as a TEAM, and leave the university as better men and women. Obstructing the athletic program by keeping the nickname will only satisfy supporters from the immediate area- why not target our entire country’s population? To do that, profound decision-making must be exemplified.

[bincitysioux]

In my own view, if the state of North Dakota insists on keeping the Sioux moniker around UND's neck, the entire state should suffer under said sanctions.

Agree. Since Carlson has made it a state issue, then Minot State, NDSU, UMary....................any NCAA member in the state should feel the effect. Much like in South Carolina. Our "representatives" have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue. Make it a State issue.

[82SiouxGuy]

Would it though? The legislature voted in favor of repealing Carlson's Folley................................

But the majority party has shown that they don't like to be ignored. And they would have the "will of the people" to support them. If UND openly rebelled and ignored the law then Carlson would go after them in some way. There might be a better chance of the legislature overriding the measure when it is shown that damage is actually being done to the University. Unfortunately, the Constitutional measure may be in place by that time and that would be harder to get rid of.

[dlsiouxfan]

It's going to be a pretty pyrric victory for fans of the Sioux nickname. If the nickname is retained after June 6th, UND will likely be dropped from the Big Sky conference which will be the start of a rapid decline in the quality and competitiveness of UND's athletic teams. For UND basketball and football the effect will be almost immediate as athletes and coaches will transfer and leave for other schools. The football program likely won't last more than three or four more years without a conference. Basketball and the other sports at UND will be rendered entirely non-competitive.

Hockey would likely remain competitive for one or two more seasons but would gradually begin to decline until the program more closely resembles programs like Alaska- Anchorage or Michigan Tech. UND will be incapable of recruiting the talent necessary to win another championship or even make a Frozen Four.

When this happens Rob Port, Al Carlson, Frank Black Cloud, and the rest of the nickname crowd will immediatly begin deflecting all blame towards the UND administration. Every one of them is gutless coward and is so lacking in integrity that they'll refuse to accept any accountability for their actions.

After 7-10 years of athletic futility, the voters of the state of ND will finally allow UND to retire the nickname. Fans like Dave K, Chewy, and Fetch will no longer be Sioux fans at that time as they'll likely be cheering for other more successful athletic programs like NDSU and Minnesota. Real UND fans can then start the process of rebuilding UND's athletic program. A task that will likely take a decade or more. In the end the Sioux nickname won't survive another decade regardless of what happens in the next few months.

[bincitysioux]

Are you completely stupid? This is a terrible ruling for all of higher ed, not just UND. Maybe if you had actually attended something other than Aakers Business College you would understand this.

Sorry WYO, but the guy has a point. You moderate Bisonville. The thread on this subject over there is over 600 pages long, filled with a helluva lot of posters that flat out say they will willingly support and encourage their family and friends in the state to support this initiative.

Is NDSU pushing this? Absolutely not. The idea of that IS stupid. But I can guarantee that alot of the signatures that got this on the ballot came from NDSU backers.

[Chewey]

It's going to be a pretty pyrric victory for fans of the Sioux nickname. If the nickname is retained after June 6th, UND will likely be dropped from the Big Sky conference which will be the start of a rapid decline in the quality and competitiveness of UND's athletic teams. For UND basketball and football the effect will be almost immediate as athletes and coaches will transfer and leave for other schools. The football program likely won't last more than three or four more years without a conference. Basketball and the other sports at UND will be rendered entirely non-competitive.

Hockey would likely remain competitive for one or two more seasons but would gradually begin to decline until the program more closely resembles programs like Alaska- Anchorage or Michigan Tech. UND will be incapable of recruiting the talent necessary to win another championship or even make a Frozen Four.

When this happens Rob Port, Al Carlson, Frank Black Cloud, and the rest of the nickname crowd will immediatly begin deflecting all blame towards the UND administration. Every one of them is gutless coward and is so lacking in integrity that they'll refuse to accept any accountability for their actions.

After 7-10 years of athletic futility, the voters of the state of ND will finally allow UND to retire the nickname. Fans like Dave K, Chewy, and Fetch will no longer be Sioux fans at that time as they'll likely be cheering for other more successful athletic programs like NDSU and Minnesota. Real UND fans can then start the process of rebuilding UND's athletic program. A task that will likely take a decade or more. In the end the Sioux nickname won't survive another decade regardless of what happens in the next few months.

UND, SBoHE is exactly where blame should be placed right now. As far as the Big Sky is concerned, have you heard the Wanless interview? No? You should; I'm sure it's on podcast. Had the SBoHE shown some genuine leadership during the 3 year buffer period instead of engaging in duplicity and truncating the process by which approval could be obtained, we would not be where we are now. Do you really think that the decision to shorten the timeline after the SL vote did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that Shaft excoriating of Bob Kelley after Bob Kelley made some perfunctory comments about the nickname prior to the NCAA meeting in August of 2011 did anything to enhance the SBoHE credibility? Do you really think that Shaft's outright lie about Notre Dame refusal to play UND because of the nickname and logo did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that Brian Faison's misrepresentations about the Big Sky Conference, which he qualified as misstatements following the Wanless interview, did anything to enhance the credibility of UND Administration? Do you really think that Faison/Kelley representations about UND not being in the Big Sky Conference when a contract had been signed the fall of 2010 and scheduling arranged through 2016really did anything to enhance the credibility of UND? Do you think that waiting a full year to challenge the nickname law and participating in the legislative process it later declares as unconstitutionally infringing upon its authority did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that arguing one law enacted by the legislative process, as reaffirmed by the referral process, and then lobbying to pass another law repealing the first law (isn't this unconstitutional too?) did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that The Ralph's victory in January concerning the solicitation of signatures did anything to temper support for the petitioners and the petition process?

You rail against the wrong crowd. The crowd rail against includes the above as well as the collection of other contradicting, justifying, rationalizing, equivocating, fear mongering, misrepresenting, expedient-minded little worms who seem content to tolerate the intolerable under the false but feel-good premise of "supporting UND athletics and the athletes". Those who seek to sate the twisted bent of a few hyper-sensitive, supercilious, and sanctimonious academics by blithely surrendering over 80 years of proud tradition are not supporters of UND athletics and/or the athletes. Rather, they're weasels preoccupied with a course of expedient dissassociation the end result of which is neither respected nor a fertile field for sowing the seeds of ongoing success for UND athletics. The nickname and logo have done nothing at all. The accomplishments made by the athletes while wearing them were not wrong. The rantings of some drunken idiots and the cynical imputing of "racism" as to the nickname and logo by a few creatively impaired academics do not impugn the honor and integrity and rich tradition represented by them.

What should happen is that the worms and weasels should grow actual backbones and help present a collective voice of opposition and dissidence as to the NCAA and its idiotic and inconsistent policies. You may disagree with the position but we have the benefit of consistency, purity, logic and truth. The pro-nickname position has remained constant - always - and simple and understandable. Contrast this with the putrid and lukewarm mish-mash of contraditions, misrepresentations, justifications, falsifications that you've hitched your wagon to. Which will people support? Which will people be drawn to? People are not stupid and you can hardly say that our side has misled by propaganda because the position is one based upon truth. A lot of very dedicated people have worked very hard and there's been precious little money. Most importantly, there's been no one making inaccurate and irresponsible statements from behind a desk to the media.

[82SiouxGuy]

UND, SBoHE is exactly where blame should be placed right now. As far as the Big Sky is concerned, have you heard the Wanless interview? No? You should; I'm sure it's on podcast. Had the SBoHE shown some genuine leadership during the 3 year buffer period instead of engaging in duplicity and truncating the process by which approval could be obtained, we would not be where we are now. Do you really think that the decision to shorten the timeline after the SL vote did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that Shaft excoriating of Bob Kelley after Bob Kelley made some perfunctory comments about the nickname prior to the NCAA meeting in August of 2011 did anything to enhance the SBoHE credibility? Do you really think that Shaft's outright lie about Notre Dame refusal to play UND because of the nickname and logo did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that Brian Faison's misrepresentations about the Big Sky Conference, which he qualified as misstatements following the Wanless interview, did anything to enhance the credibility of UND Administration? Do you really think that Faison/Kelley representations about UND not being in the Big Sky Conference when a contract had been signed the fall of 2010 and scheduling arranged through 2016really did anything to enhance the credibility of UND? Do you think that waiting a full year to challenge the nickname law and participating in the legislative process it later declares as unconstitutionally infringing upon its authority did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that arguing one law enacted by the legislative process, as reaffirmed by the referral process, and then lobbying to pass another law repealing the first law (isn't this unconstitutional too?) did anything to enhance the credibility of the SBoHE? Do you really think that The Ralph's victory in January concerning the solicitation of signatures did anything to temper support for the petitioners and the petition process?

What should happen is that the worms and weasels should grow actual backbones and help present a collective voice of opposition and dissidence as to the NCAA and its idiotic and inconsistent policies. You may disagree with the position but we have the benefit of consistency, purity, logic and truth. The pro-nickname position has remained constant - always - and simple and understandable. Contrast this with the putrid and lukewarm mish-mash of contraditions, misrepresentations, justifications, falsifications that you've hitched your wagon to. Which will people support? Which will people be drawn to? People are not stupid and you can hardly say that our side has misled by propaganda the position is one of truth. A lot of very dedicated people have worked very hard and there's been precious little money. Most importantly, there's been no one making inaccurate and irresponsible statements from behind a desk to the media.

The people trying to force UND to continue using the nickname, people like Rob Port and Al Carlson, are using anything but logic and truth. You say that UND is a member of the Big Sky. That is a partial truth. The Big Sky bylaws clearly state that to be a full member of the Conference the school has to be a full Division I member of the NCAA. UND is not a full Division I member of the NCAA. UND is transitioning to Division I, and the NCAA considers schools in transition to be a full member of their previous level. In other words, UND is a Division II member of the NCAA that is in the process of transitioning. In addition, I believe that the paperwork you quote also says that UND would not become a full member until they paid the entry fee, and that would not be due in full until the summer of 2012. That fee has not been paid. UND has not been given full membership rights at Big Sky Conference meetings. They are not able to vote on conference matters. UND is not a full member of the Big Sky no matter what you continue to claim. They have signed a contract to become a full member effective in July of 2012 as long as all other details meet the qualifications. It is similar to a politician being elected to office, but not yet taking office. They have the job starting on a certain date, but at this time do not have any of the rights or responsibilities that go with that position.

As far as schedules go, they can be easily changed. It is doubtful that the Big Sky would change the schedule for this year. They could easily make them all non-conference games. But if you have paid any attention to collegiate athletics in the past couple of years you can see that schools have changed conferences with only months notice and they have rearranged conference schedules to make it work for both the outgoing and incoming conferences. Nebraska joined the Big 10 a year ago and competed this school year. I'm pretty sure that the Big 10 and Big 12 had schedules already done, they both had to make changes. So the schedules out to 2016 are meaningless. The reason they made them that far in advance was to work out a schedule through the entire schedule rotation because they have too many teams to allow a simple schedule that repeats each year.

You said that Shaft had stated that Notre Dame refused to play UND because of the nickname. Again that's false. What Shaft said was that he wondered if the nickname played a role in Notre Dame not joining the new hockey conference. He didn't state it as a fact. He said that he wondered if that might be a factor. He didn't say that Notre Dame refused to play UND, because they did not. He was talking about reasons that Notre Dame may have used to pick a different conference.

Wanless is an Athletic Director. Decisions on who is a member of the conference are above his pay grade. He can say whatever he wants, he isn't in the room when those decisions are discussed or made. He may speak with his school president, but that conversation can change rapidly when they are in a room with other presidents. If the leaders in the group push for an outcome it is very likely to become unanimous before they leave the room.

Your side speaks in half truths and show a complete lack of understanding of how collegiate athletics work. Just the fact that your side doesn't believe that home field advantage for a team in the playoffs is an important factor to players and to teams shows that you don't understand athletics. The SBoHE has made plenty of mistakes in this process, but they are trying to do what is in the best interests of the school right now and for the future. I wish that more North Dakotans understood that and supported that.

[FargoBison]

Agree. Since Carlson has made it a state issue, then Minot State, NDSU, UMary....................any NCAA member in the state should feel the effect. Much like in South Carolina. Our "representatives" have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue. Make it a State issue.

Nope this is your mess. It isn't NDSU's or Mary's fault that UND's coaches and alumni have a long established track record of not acting in their own school's best interest.

A few Bison fans may vote for this but they never would have had the chance if it wasn't for UND's very own supporters. Our "representatives" never would have taken it upon themselves if it wasn't for UND's very own supporters.

This notion that the entire state should suffer because of UND's lack of control is completely ridiculous.

[westsidesioux]

The UND FIGHTING SIOUX football team will have home-field advantage in the playoffs again at some point in the future. Maybe not within the next 2 or 3 years while the legal matters are sorted out, but it WILL happen.

No, they won't....wake up....that will NEVER happen again if this law is approved by the voters

[Hayduke]

Short of dropping the name, would it be possible to keep the name, but basically retire its active use? Would UND receive any relief from sanctions if they no longer use the name in an official capacity during the regular season as well as the playoffs? While the law requires UND to retain the nickname, it does not require how the name must be used. Just wondering how the NCAA would react if UND acted in good faith since the issue is completely beyond their control at this point. This strategy would also allow time for the various legal matters to resolve themselves.

Maybe just quietly drop the name and references throughout the athletic department and never refer to themselves as the Fighting Sioux. Wonder what Al would do then?

[UNDBIZ]

Would it though? The legislature voted in favor of repealing Carlson's Folley................................

Politics is all about rhetoric and posturing. Regardless of whether they would agree with UND's decision to ignore the law, the fact UND didn't respect the legislature's authority would result in a lot of anger, especially in the House. King Al makes the rules there and what he says, goes.

[fightingsioux4life]

Nope this is your mess. It isn't NDSU's or Mary's fault that UND's coaches and alumni have a long established track record of not acting in their own school's best interest.

A few Bison fans may vote for this but they never would have had the chance if it wasn't for UND's very own supporters. Our "representatives" never would have taken it upon themselves if it wasn't for UND's very own supporters.

This notion that the entire state should suffer because of UND's lack of control is completely ridiculous.

This is pure nonsense and hogwash and you know it. UND's "lack of control" is the same "lack of control" that denied NDSU another tuition increase. The SBoHE is in charge of UND, NDSU and 9 other institutions. If they tell UND to keep using the name and logo because "Prime Minister" Al Carlson's asinine law says so, then that is what they are forced to do. And the petitions are NOT being coordinated by Kelley, Faison or anyone else (O'Keefe) affiliated with UND. Nice try with the spin, but you fail. I shouldn't expect anything less from an NDSU backer.