The Sanctions and Punishments Have Arrived

[PhillySioux]

The fact that the UND contingent now believes that the absence of three non-traditional opponents from UND's athletics' schedules will kill the program. These policies have existed for a long time; UND has survived. Central Michigan has survived without scheduling this apparent holy trinity. In other words, UND's survival is not contingent on playing three specific schools, which UND has hardly, if ever, played before. In seven years, all I've heard is Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. Finally, I am asking for the name of any other schools.

ScottM can't even name one more. All I'm asking is for someone to name a few other schools, which have adopted similar policies in the last seven years.

Who said this?

Seems to be it is small but very important part of what awaits UND if they are forced to retain the nickname. The point of this thread, it seems, is to illustrate that sanctions are real and happening. One can poopoo the importance of one or the other. One cannot deny they are happening.

[82SiouxGuy]

The fact that the UND contingent now believes that the absence of three non-traditional opponents from UND's athletics' schedules will kill the program. These policies have existed for a long time; UND has survived. Central Michigan has survived without scheduling this apparent holy trinity. In other words, UND's survival is not contingent on playing three specific schools, which UND has hardly, if ever, played before. In seven years, all I've heard is Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. Finally, I am asking for the name of any other schools.

ScottM can't even name one more. All I'm asking is for someone to name a few other schools, which have adopted similar policies in the last seven years.

The reason that Minnesota and Wisconsin have become even more important is the fact that they will be in a different hockey conference. Wisconsin was going to continue the rivalry, but have now said they will not. Minnesota had not committed to continue playing UND before, now they will not. Losing those opponents are the first visual evidence that even the hockey program at UND will suffer from the sanctions. That's something that may sway some of the hockey only crowd. Games against these 3 schools in other sports were something that people were looking forward to when the Division I move was announced. Making them happen would be a good addition to the program.

Again, Central Michigan is not a good comparison because they have namesake approval so they are not on sanctions. They have played many Big 10 schools in different sports. And even if they hadn't, Michigan and Michigan State would be comparable Big 10 schools for Central Michigan.

As far as other schools that won't play UND, you're right in that those are the ones we know about. We don't know what other schools have decided not to schedule UND because they don't want to deal with the issue. They don't have to announce that. They can just say they aren't interested. They don't have to announce a reason for not putting a game on the schedule. I wouldn't be surprised if that has happened at least a few times. Especially after issues arose in places like Dartmouth, Texas Tech and in California.

[Benny Baker]

CMU isn't under sanctions you idiot. And they are scheduiled to play Iowa. And Michigan State.

Where did I say that Central Michigan was under sanctions, idiot?

Iowa's policy doesn't differentiate between sanctioned and unsanctioned universities. It's actually pretty well documented that the school applies its policy arbitrarily. It must be because the Hawkeye nickname is derived from Chief Black Hawk, who was of course, a Native American.

[UND1983]

So who will benefit from keeping the name?   What is your end game?

Benny, I am still waiting on your answer to my question............

[ScottM]

Where did I say that Central Michigan was under sanctions, idiot?

Iowa's policy doesn't differentiate between sanctioned and unsanctioned universities. It's actually pretty well documented that the school applies its policy arbitrarily. It must be because the Hawkeye nickname is derived from Chief Black Hawk, who was of course, a Native American.

You make an "apple to oranges" comparison between UND and CMU when CMU regularly plays B1G schools without sanctions hanging over it. UND no longer has that benefit.

Not sure what your game is on the board,. since you fail to answer any direct questions posed about the effects of the sanctions on UND or the "benefits" of keeping the Sioux moniker. However, you do seem to enjoy engaging in pointless hypotheticals llike some bored law student.

[Benny Baker]

Benny, I am still waiting on your answer to my question............

Sorry, too many questions at once. Which question? I'm not really sure what you're really looking for since I said that the nickname and sanctions will hurt the school. So if it's the second question, I think I've made it clear. The unilateral choice of three schools to continue not playing against UND is not the end of the Earth. The athletic program will survive.

[Benny Baker]

You make an "apple to oranges" comparison between UND and CMU when CMU regularly plays B1G schools without sanctions hanging over it. UND no longer has that benefit.

Not sure what your game is on the board,. since you fail to answer any direct questions posed about the effects of the sanctions on UND or the "benefits" of keeping the Sioux moniker. However, you do seem to enjoy engaging in pointless hypotheticals llike some bored law student.

Haha, says the guy who refuses to answer any of my direct questions.

[UND1983]

Sorry, too many questions at once.  Which question?  I'm not really sure what you're really looking for since I said that the nickname and sanctions will hurt the school.  So if it's the second question, I think I've made it clear.  The unilateral choice of three schools to continue not playing against UND is not the end of the Earth.  The athletic program will survive.

You said that keeping the nickname does not benefit the university. My question is: if they keep the nickname, who does it benefit then? You obviously want to keep it so who do you see benefitting from keeping it?

[The Sicatoka]

As far as other schools that won't play UND, you're right in that those are the ones we know about. We don't know what other schools have decided not to schedule UND because they don't want to deal with the issue. They don't have to announce that. They can just say they aren't interested. They don't have to announce a reason for not putting a game on the schedule. I wouldn't be surprised if that has happened at least a few times. Especially after issues arose in places like Dartmouth, Texas Tech and in California.

That's one place that I'm pretty sure UND won't be seeing again after the FB game day program flap when UND was there a couple years ago.

Schools don't have to have a stated policy. They can just choose to not schedule UND for "unstated" reasons. Their schedule. Their choice. Actually, I commend Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa for stating their policy. That takes some cajones and at least we know "who and why" when scheduling against them doesn't happen for UND.

[The Sicatoka]

Again, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa follow the NCAA's "best practices" policy when it comes to scheduling. That means they won't schedule teams on the NCAA's "naughty monikers" list.

FSU, Utah, and CMU are not on the "naughty monikers" list.

UND is on the "naughty monikers" list.

[UND-1]

That's one place that I'm pretty sure UND won't be seeing again after the FB game day program flap when UND was there a couple years ago.

Schools don't have to have a stated policy. They can just choose to not schedule UND for "unstated" reasons. Their schedule. Their choice. Actually, I commend Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa for stating their policy. That takes some cajones and at least we know "who and why" when scheduling against them doesn't happen for UND.

Anyone who has been down to TT knows they could not care less about nicknames or anything else. It is the wild west down there.

That game program cover should show you that. There is nothing PC about Texas Tech.

[jodcon]

Anyone who has been down to TT knows they could not care less about nicknames or anything else. It is the wild west down there.

That game program cover should show you that. There is nothing PC about Texas Tech.

I hadn't heard about this, what was the deal?

[The Sicatoka]

Okay smart guy name me 3 reasons why keeping the name will benefit the University?

Who said that keeping the nickname would benefit the University? I think that they'd be incorrect.

I don't get it Benny. "Keeping the moniker benefits UND" is by your statement "incorrect. "

So why the other tangential concerns or arguments? Just bored and have a keyboard?

[Benny Baker]

You said that keeping the nickname does not benefit the university. My question is: if they keep the nickname, who does it benefit then? You obviously want to keep it so who do you see benefitting from keeping it?

Again, I've already said that the nickname does not benefit the university overall so I don't know how you can read into that statement that someone is being benefited. But if you want this to be an academic exercise than I'll throw this out there:

To prove our state’s ability to make it’s own decisions, rather than blindly following the NCAA’s arbitrarily enforced policy. To ensure that the amount of public time and resources expended in retaining the nickname are not wasted, rather than making reactionary decisions based upon other parties’ actions. To continue providing exposure to the Native American community, but I guess that is why SL is suing the NCAA in the first place. To encourage UND to recognize and continue providing educational opportunities for North Dakota’s Native American population, rather then see it dwindle away after the nickname is gone. To continue the proud tradition and history of Fighting Sioux athletics.

Again, I've already answered your question three-times over. So I'm not sure if it was something like this that you were looking for.

[The Sicatoka]

I hadn't heard about this, what was the deal?

When UND played at TT a few years back the TT game day program had a scared looking Native on a pony being chased by the TT Zorro looking, gun firing mascot on the cover. It turned into a flap with the pure moniker hating crowd both here and there.

[Benny Baker]

Again, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa follow the NCAA's "best practices" policy when it comes to scheduling. That means they won't schedule teams on the NCAA's "naughty monikers" list.

FSU, Utah, and CMU are not on the "naughty monikers" list.

UND is on the "naughty monikers" list.

I've tried to find clarification on this. From what I've seen, Iowa and Wisconsin's policies don't differentiate between sanctioned-mascot and unsanctioned-mascot schools. Are the policies that I'm looking at old? Do you have any links for newer ones? Thanks in advance!

[jodcon]

When UND played at TT a few years back the TT game day program had a scared looking Native on a pony being chased by the TT Zorro looking, gun firing mascot on the cover. It turned into a flap with the pure moniker hating crowd both here and there.

I'll bet. Thanks

[Benny Baker]

I don't get it Benny. "Keeping the moniker benefits UND" is by your statement "incorrect. "

So why the other tangential concerns or arguments? Just bored and have a keyboard?

Sorry, I'm confused by what you said too. No, I don't think that continuing the nickname would benefit UND. But I'm not of the opinion that the current harm facing the athletic's program justifies retirement. Now, if the BSC finally gets off their collective butts and actually says "drop the nickname or you're gone" . . . well then my opinion would change. As far as I'm concerned, the Big Ten holy trinity can have a nice life. Hope that clarifies it.

[Fetch]

Paranoia strikes deep

Into your life it will creep

It starts when you're always afraid

[UND Alum Fan]

Sorry, I'm confused by what you said too. No, I don't think that continuing the nickname would benefit UND. But I'm not of the opinion that the current harm facing the athletic's program justifies retirement. Now, if the BSC finally gets off their collective butts and actually says "drop the nickname or you're gone" . . . well then my opinion would change. As far as I'm concerned, the Big Ten holy trinity can have a nice life. Hope that clarifies it.

And once the BSC says "drop the nickname or you're gone" - Then it's really to late, isn't it!!!!!!!

[PhillySioux]

Paranoia strikes deep

Into your life it will creep

It starts when you're always afraid

There is a line from a Refreshments song that comes to mind...........

[jodcon]

There is a line from a Refreshments song that comes to mind...........

I was thinking a Rod Serling intro into 'The Twilight Zone' myself.

[UNDBIZ]

Again, I've already said that the nickname does not benefit the university overall so I don't know how you can read into that statement that someone is being benefited. But if you want this to be an academic exercise than I'll throw this out there:

To ensure that the amount of public time and resources expended in retaining the nickname are not wasted, rather than making reactionary decisions based upon other parties’ actions.

Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. The state throwing more money at the name will simply result in more money spent. The name will be just as gone or the University will be just as hurt. Spirit Lake's lawsuit could potentially save the name, but the laws, consitutional amendments, etc. do nothing but harm UND.

[ticklethetwine]

Again, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa follow the NCAA's "best practices" policy when it comes to scheduling. That means they won't schedule teams on the NCAA's "naughty monikers" list.

FSU, Utah, and CMU are not on the "naughty monikers" list.

UND is on the "naughty monikers" list.

What I don't understand is the policy is intended to not stereotype NA yet just because the NCAA says FSU and Utah and CMU are ok that means those names don't offend anyone. It seems as though the NCAA is acting like GOD. The policy should be evenly applied and if the name is offense it shouldn't matter if they are on the sanctions list or not. I think that is a point that irritates a lot of people about this whole process.

[82SiouxGuy]

Sorry, I'm confused by what you said too. No, I don't think that continuing the nickname would benefit UND. But I'm not of the opinion that the current harm facing the athletic's program justifies retirement. Now, if the BSC finally gets off their collective butts and actually says "drop the nickname or you're gone" . . . well then my opinion would change. As far as I'm concerned, the Big Ten holy trinity can have a nice life. Hope that clarifies it.

I would be surprised if the Big Sky gave an ultimatum. At some point they will announce either that it will be on the next agenda, or that the vote was already taken. Giving the ultimatum would be bad public relations and be longer lasting than just acting on the issue.

The damage is already beginning. The cancelled games are one example. It is not a leap to figure that other schools will just avoid the issue. The anecdotal evidence that Dale Lennon provided, saying that student-athletes have decided not to even consider UND because of sanctions, is even more troubling. That piece is just beginning. Accuracy is not always a part of recruiting. Other schools will use the sanctions, probably already have, to scare athletes away from UND. Losing top athletes will affect the chances of winning games, which will affect attendance and giving. That is a cancer that will continue to eat away at the Athletic Department. That is more than enough reason to change the name even without the threat from the Big Sky.