Conference Realignments - Take 2

[Hayduke]

The MVFC commissioner? Ya, that would be my primary source for Information about the group of 5, as would anything that Doug Fullerton has to say.

And . . . What does NDSU, an FCS FB school have to do with this? Absolutely zero. The lower tier of FBS and the FCS are 22 scholarships apart, and won't be at the same level anytime soon. You think the Big Sky is going to magically merge with the MWC to to play for the same championship when they are miles apart in dollars and scholarships? How many in the BSC could afford to go up in scholarship? Very few. You think the MWC is going down? Ha, ha, ha . . .

And . . . Who is scrambling for position? There is the Top 5 FBS conf, and the bottom 5. The movement to the top 5 is done. Who is scrambling? Scramble to get into the bottom 5, why? If there is a separation, who wants to be in the Lower FBS Tier? Not very sexy if the top would split, other than an I occasional game vs the top.

Lots of misinformation in this thread. Hopefully people understand the facts and look past the misinformation.

Herd is right.

Seriously. Only I would (obviously) include the MV conference football (with the Big Sky) in the idea of merger with a lower tier FBS conference. Too far apart right now in scholarships and $$$ spent on the programs.

As bad as Colorado State has been the past few years, their facilities and budget far surpasses anything the FCS schools have at this time. They are fundraising a new stadium and new facilities..much easier to do when you've been at a FBS level for many decades...even a low end FBS level. The $$$ is pouring in. Even with Wyoming, the difference between War Memorial Stadium and the facilities at a school like Wyoming compared to an FCS school are huge.

I'm going to suck it up and say, honestly, that I think with the Fargo metro area and the support in Fargo for their team, they have a much, much better shot at moving up than UND. However, if UND wants to stay competitive in football, they better do what they do in Fargo. They'll have to suck it up and raise the $$$. Keep scheduling real opponents, which is happening in Fargo and Grand Forks. (Ferris State is an understandable glitch this year in Fargo...)

Bottom line is, if you want to be an FBS school, even at the lower end of FBS...it's gonna cost you.

I hope they both do it. In my opinion, both schools stayed D-II much, much too long. It was embarrassing to see UND play the Winona States in the world of college athletics. You can rip on and make fun of the lesser of the FBS schools, but many of them have been putting their asses out there for years. Sometimes, they get their asses handed to them. I'd rather see UND do that, instead of scheduling Mayville State in basketball and South Dakota Tech in football.

[82SiouxGuy]

The MVFC commissioner? Ya, that would be my primary source for Information about the group of 5, as would anything that Doug Fullerton has to say.

And . . . What does NDSU, an FCS FB school have to do with this? Absolutely zero. The lower tier of FBS and the FCS are 22 scholarships apart, and won't be at the same level anytime soon. You think the Big Sky is going to magically merge with the MWC to to play for the same championship when they are miles apart in dollars and scholarships? How many in the BSC could afford to go up in scholarship? Very few. You think the MWC is going down? Ha, ha, ha . . .

And . . . Who is scrambling for position? There is the Top 5 FBS conf, and the bottom 5. The movement to the top 5 is done. Who is scrambling? Scramble to get into the bottom 5, why? If there is a separation, who wants to be in the Lower FBS Tier? Not very sexy if the top would split, other than an I occasional game vs the top.

Lots of misinformation in this thread. Hopefully people understand the facts and look past the misinformation.

You keep repeating that the Big 5 aren't going anywhere. That they wouldn't do anything to hurt college football. Now even the MVFC commissioner has publicly recognized that there is going to be a major change in the sport. The Big 5 are going to do something that will benefit them and may do something that isn't in the best interest of the rest of the schools.

You can't seem to recognize that some, and maybe all, of the rules that govern college football administration are possible to change. NO ONE knows exactly how it will turn out. Just because the lower level BCS and the FCS divisions of 2013 are 22 scholarships apart doesn't mean that this will remain. If they create a new combined level, they may set the scholarship level somewhere in the middle. Or they might give FCS schools the option to move up. Or they might convince the lower BCS schools to cut scholarships. After all, most of them lose money right now and will have less money to work with without the big conferences. It may be a relief to the lower level BCS schools. Don't forget, school presidents are the primary contact with the NCAA and the ones that make the rules. They might be tired of losing money. At this point, EVERYTHING IS ON THE TABLE if the Big 5 decide to force a change. And most reports out of college football suggest that they are going to force some kind of change.

[The Sicatoka]

Pragmatically, if the Big 5 get their way they pull about 70 FBS programs into their own "D4" level of college football. And please recall what Nick Saban said. He said those should play against each other. Too radical? Tell that to the "no more FCS games" Big Ten and the commissioner of the Pac 12. They have already started to implement insular scheduling. So what is it? Smoke? I'd say ... Fire.

What's left of FBS after "D4"? About 40 teams.

Will a 40 team division work? No.

So what'll happen? Change.

What'll the change be? The remainder of FBS, the "below the line" schools, will need someone else to play, someone to fill out a (let's guess) a 70 to 80 team division.

Likely candidates? The top portion of FCS.

Logistics, details, to make that happen? Your guess is as good as mine; however, '82 puts out some of the concepts that seem reasonably likely.

[82SiouxGuy]

Pragmatically, if the Big 5 get their way they pull about 70 FBS programs into their own "D4" level of college football. And please recall what Nick Saban said. He said those should play against each other. Too radical? Tell that to the "no more FCS games" Big Ten and the commissioner of the Pac 12. They have already started to implement insular scheduling. So what is it? Smoke? I'd say ... Fire.

What's left of FBS after "D4"? About 40 teams.

Will a 40 team division work? No.

So what'll happen? Change.

What'll the change be? The remainder of FBS, the "below the line" schools, will need someone else to play, someone to fill out a (let's guess) a 70 to 80 team division.

Likely candidates? The top portion of FCS.

Logistics, details, to make that happen? Your guess is as good as mine; however, '82 puts out some of the concepts that seem reasonably likely.

For 2012-2013 there were approximately 120 FBS schools, 122 FCS schools and 98 non-football schools. If the Big 5 pull out 70 plus teams for the Super division, that would leave 160-170 teams between the lower level BCS and FCS. Balance it out and you have a little over 80 teams in each of the 2. You only have to find some middle ground to set the boundaries. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how that works.

[Herd]

The top level FBS will likely start with Stipends (2000-3000) per full scholarship player per year to create a advantage. I think the ncaa will have to concede this minimum request to appease the Top 5 conferences. That will keep all of FBS together for another couple of years IMO in the current ncaa structure.

If there is a 70 team split to a supposed new division, the bottom of FBS and the FCS have a long way to go to be on a level playing field. Splitting the 13 FCS conferences for half of them to join the Lower FBS to make a 120 team division will be hard to do. I just wonder how this can practically be done. You might be able to pull some FCS teams up to 70 scholarships, but what FCS conferences would move up, move down, and how far can they afford?. Hard to tell.

Move to 70: Big Sky, MVfC, CAA, Southern, Southland (Split)

Move to 50: Ohio Valley, Pioneer, SWAC, Patriot, Northeast, MEAC, Ivy, Big South, Southland (split)

That would seem most likely . . . if the MWC, SunB, MAC, AAC, UCSA would be willing to move down to a lower scholarship level. . . and I really doubt that. And the 50 scholarship level? That a worthless championship thats no better than DII.

[UNDColorado]

Also I want to add that if there is some sort of reclassification I have to think that some teams from the AAC and MWC will find a way to move up. At this point i's guess:

Boise State

San Diego State

Cincy

RUtgers

Maybe: Nevada, Uconn

[Herd]

Maybe Scholarship Slots could be utilized to bring the Lower FBS and FCS together in ranges that covferences could choose vs. just having a specific maximum. I could envision the following in 10 years. For example, the MWC could have an 85 scholly max and play in the 2nd level vs. the MVFC who would have a conf max scholly level of 70.

DI 86-90: 86-90 Schollies, $3000 Stipends, Major tv contracts, modified academic requirements, major ass kissing of athletes, Small 4 Team Playoff Championship

DI 70-85: 70-85 Scholarship range, no Stipends, Plays games against top level, 16 team Playoff Championship

DI 0-50: 0-50 Scholarships, no games vs. top Level; Do like the Ivies with no Championship or maybe an 8 Team Champoinship, NO games vs top level

DI 86-90: SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC, (MWC or AAC select Teams?)

DI 70-85: MWC, AAC, SBC, MAC, CUSA, Big Sky, MVFC, CAA, Southern, Southland/Ohio (split select teams)

DI 0-50: Southland/Ohio (split), Pioneer, Patriot, NEC, Ivy, SWAC, MEAC, Big South

Of the MWC, AAC, SBC, MAC or CUSA . . . who would be willing to play the Big Sky, MVFC, CAA and SoCon teams for a 2nd Level Championship? They would probably loath the thought. (Now I'm the one spreading misinformation .. . ha,ha)

[darell1976]

Does anyone know in a ballpark range how much more money schools like UND or NDSU would shell out if they had to raise more scholarships? And could the schools afford it?

[82SiouxGuy]

Maybe Scholarship Slots could be utilized to bring the Lower FBS and FCS together in ranges that covferences could choose vs. just having a specific maximum. I could envision the following in 10 years. For example, the MWC could have an 85 scholly max and play in the 2nd level vs. the MVFC who would have a conf max scholly level of 70.

DI 86-90: 86-90 Schollies, $3000 Stipends, Major tv contracts, modified academic requirements, major ass kissing of athletes, Small 4 Team Playoff Championship

DI 70-85: 70-85 Scholarship range, no Stipends, Plays games against top level, 16 team Playoff Championship

DI 0-50: 0-50 Scholarships, no games vs. top Level; Do like the Ivies with no Championship or maybe an 8 Team Champoinship, NO games vs top level

DI 86-90: SEC, B1G, B12, P12, ACC, (MWC or AAC select Teams?)

DI 70-85: MWC, AAC, SBC, MAC, CUSA, Big Sky, MVFC, CAA, Southern, Southland/Ohio (split select teams)

DI 0-50: Southland/Ohio (split), Pioneer, Patriot, NEC, Ivy, SWAC, MEAC, Big South

Of the MWC, AAC, SBC, MAC or CUSA . . . who would be willing to play the Big Sky, MVFC, CAA and SoCon teams for a 2nd Level Championship? They would probably loath the thought. (Now I'm the one spreading misinformation .. . ha,ha)

Those are all possibilities. And some schools might loath the whole idea, but they probably aren't going to have a lot of choice. I wouldn't throw out the possibility that the lower 5 BCS might be willing to decrease scholarships from 85. It has been reported by several people that many of those schools are losing money on athletics. If they lose access to some NCAA revenue because the big schools break away they might make a business decision to cut some costs. Some hardcore fans wouldn't like the idea, but people doing the books would love it. Especially if it doesn't affect the ability to compete for a title.

[82SiouxGuy]

Does anyone know in a ballpark range how much more money schools like UND or NDSU would shell out if they had to raise more scholarships? And could the schools afford it?

Depends on the number of scholarships. I've read that most schools have to increase spending anywhere from $2-4,000,000 when they move up to FBS. It isn't just adding scholarships for football. They have to add an equivalent number of scholarships for women. That might include adding 1 or 2 more women's sports. Which would include hiring coaches and other staff. And may require new facilities.

If you are talking a number in the middle like could happen if the big schools pull away, it depends on what number they decide on.

Both UND and NDSU are probably capable of adding scholarships, and could even get to the FBS level with a little time and planning. My guess is that it would be a struggle to jump to that level immediately for either school.

[Herd]

Depends on the number of scholarships. I've read that most schools have to increase spending anywhere from $2-4,000,000 when they move up to FBS. It isn't just adding scholarships for football. They have to add an equivalent number of scholarships for women. That might include adding 1 or 2 more women's sports. Which would include hiring coaches and other staff. And may require new facilities.

If you are talking a number in the middle like could happen if the big schools pull away, it depends on what number they decide on.

Both UND and NDSU are probably capable of adding scholarships, and could even get to the FBS level with a little time and planning. My guess is that it would be a struggle to jump to that level immediately for either school.

I agree, depends on scholarship level. Under the scenario that I posted where the 2nd Tier had a 70-85 scholarship slot, the former FCS conference could move from 63 to 70 scholarships and only spend about 1 million more annually with the womens's added too. If moving to 85 (up 22x2) would cost 3 millioin, moving to 70 (7x2) would only be 1 million in my estimation. This expense could be assisted by playing a game vs. the top level for 500k or more.

So IMO, it would make sense to move up to a number less than 85 (like 70) if it gave you access to again play B1G or top level games, and put you in competition with some of the FBS's current 2nd Tier. I could also envisions the SBC or the MAC saying, let's cap scholarship at 75 or 80 to help our economic situation. As long as they could still play the top level.

[RD17]

Great article from Dennis Dodd on concepts behind a new division. He doesn't feel that the Big 5 will end up completely breaking away from the NCAA, but they will use their leverage to get the changes they want:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/22988242/college-football-postseason-formats-evolve-but-catalyst-remains-same

[jimdahl]

Great article from Dennis Dodd on concepts behind a new division. He doesn't feel that the Big 5 will end up completely breaking away from the NCAA, but they will use their leverage to get the changes they want:

http://www.cbssports...st-remains-same

My favorite quote, because it's so reminiscent of what many of us were saying when the 'SUs were first looking at I-AA -- when schools like the Dakota schools are rushing into D-I, that's watering down and the big guys will eventually do something about it. We did what we had to do (we're absolutely more with peers now than we would be if we hadn't moved), but we've just been maintaining staying in the 2nd tier (though the name has changed over the years, D-II, I-AA, FCS).

That's why it was ominous to hear Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby say last week, "We've made it too easy to get into Division I and too easy to stay there.

Those words could easily have been used in 1978.

[Shawn-O]

Will it happen with the likes of Conference USA, the MAC, Sun Belt, American and the Mountain West? Not anytime soon.

"We don't want the perception to be that we haven't played at the highest level of college athletics," American Athletic Conference commissioner Mike Aresco told me this week. "That's why there was some talk about us having our own playoff. I dismiss that because we don't want to go that route at all. Why would we put ourselves in a kind of subdivision?"

I think we can forget about any sort of lower-FBS upper-FCS merger based on this. I could see them starting their own 8-team playoff at some point for the $$$$.

[UNDBIZ]

I think we can forget about any sort of lower-FBS upper-FCS merger based on this. I could see them starting their own 8-team playoff at some point for the $$$$.

And thus, FCS becomes D2 again. The top teams of the lower FBS will attempt to move to the upper FBS with increasing success each passing year; the top teams of the FCS will attempt to move to the lower FBS with increasing success each year; the top teams of D2 will attempt to move to the FCS with increasing success each year; and eventually the teams in each division/subdivision who started out as average will look around at all the teams they're now surrounded by and an attempt to restructure will be made.

[darell1976]

So if NDSU ( or more importantly Montana and Montana State) moves up into the new playoff FBS does UND follow? Maybe the NCAA will relax on the attendance rule on the new division and maybe enforce it on the Super 5 teams.

[Shawn-O]

So if NDSU ( or more importantly Montana and Montana State) moves up into the new playoff FBS does UND follow? Maybe the NCAA will relax on the attendance rule on the new division and maybe enforce it on the Super 5 teams.

The bottom-tier FBS have made it clear they want nothing to do with the current FCS schools.

[UNDBIZ]

The bottom-tier FBS have made it clear they want nothing to do with the current FCS schools.

Just give it time. Once the top of the bottom-tier begins moving to the top-tier, the bottom-tier will come calling to the FCS (in fact, they already have).

[UNDBIZ]

So if NDSU ( or more importantly Montana and Montana State) moves up into the new playoff FBS does UND follow? Maybe the NCAA will relax on the attendance rule on the new division and maybe enforce it on the Super 5 teams.

Yes

[darell1976]

The bottom-tier FBS have made it clear they want nothing to do with the current FCS schools.

I can see the MW calling Montana-MSU, also the Sun Belt currently looks like the GWFC of the FBS. If the WAC could come back UND could have a shot there. Or else our best hope would be a MW invite but that would take a miracle.

[UNDColorado]

The bottom-tier FBS have made it clear they want nothing to do with the current FCS schools.

That may be true but the lower tier does not hold the bargaining chips...

[82SiouxGuy]

I don't think that the smaller FBS conferences will have enough control to make the decision about whether they stay the same or if they end up combined with part of FCS. All changes have to be approved by the NCAA membership, not just by the smaller group of conferences. My guess is that the entire membership would rather try to balance numbers to some degree rather than have a small mid-level group of 50 or so schools with larger levels above and below it.

[SiouxVolley]

Conference rumors:

JMU to CUSA or possible MAC. JMU has an invite somewhere. CUSA board is buzzing. NDSU not a candidate for CUSA or the MAC.

UTEP to MWC? Maybe BYU follow?

[SiouxVolley]

Bisonvile has it wrong again (and never is right). When Valpo and Chicago St were in the Summit, I said that NDSU / SDSU would not get invited. When Valpo left and Chicago St was evicted, I said NDSU and SDSU were locks because the then MidCon was desparate. NDSU fans could not believe they were locks and said I was an idiot. Turns out they were.

[bincitysioux]

Conference rumors:

JMU to CUSA or possible MAC. JMU has an invite somewhere. CUSA board is buzzing. NDSU not a candidate for CUSA or the MAC.

UTEP to MWC? Maybe BYU follow?

I thought UTEP would have gone to the MWC last year. MWC needs access to Texas recruiting grounds. They would help fill the void left by TCU. I'm a bit of a BYU fan, and they just need to suck it up and get back into a conference. Returning to the MWC, along with UTEP would give them 14. On the other hand though, regarding BYU, if ESPN/ESPN2/ESPNU, is willing to put 6 or 7 Cougar football games on TV every year, and they can be in the WCC with Gonzaga, maybe going independent was a smart move.