Kelley has deceived the media and you

[ScottM]

A question for the legal-eagles that peruse this forum:

Don't laws have to have a penalty associated with them to make them enforceable?

If you speed and get caught you get a ticket and a fine per the penalty associated with the traffic laws.

If you are 19 and have an open beer in your hand that's minor in posession, a class B (?) misdemeanor under state law, with penalty specified by law.

If you murder someone that's a class A felony with penalty associated by law.

So, "Fighting Sioux" is the moniker of UND is the law. So, what's the penalty for violation? Ticket? Misdemeanor? Felony?

Without a defined penalty for violation, where's the enforcement? No prosecutor will take a case that has no penalty for the offender, will they?

Some of you are saying the law is unconstitutional under state law.

I say it is unenforceable without a defined penalty, and the law doesn't define one.

State law says the state bird is the western meadowlark and the state horse is the Nokota. If I print up a brochure claiming they are the crow and the clydesdale do I face a ticket? The death penalty? It's the same kind of state law unless there's a defined penalty.

Laws don't necessarily need a penalty provision or private right of action to make them "laws". If Clueless Al's legislation said that if UND athletes did not wear the Sioux name/logo they could not travel or be given scholarships, then you have a penalty. Criminal laws generally lay out the violations, and the potential penalties. Civil laws can run the gamut from specifying the official state mouse to allocating tax monies without specifying any particular consequences for a failure to "obey" them.

[r2opus2]

As an Alum of the U, it is very disheartening to see the President of the University and the Student Senate basically lay over and play dead. What ever happed to pride in your school and community? The fact that a group can come out and attack UND and arbitrarily label the moniker is absurd enough, then add the fact that the person/group designated as the leader(s) cower to those statements and designations is unbelievable. Sioux pride, and what it stands for, is definitely absent in the Student Senate and President's Office. As I see it, the leaders of Standing Rock could have prevented this sh@#storm long ago by giving their members a voice, instead of letting a few speak for the many. That decision would have put this to bed, either way. I view the recent legislation as giving those, and other, residents a voice in the nickname issue.

[The Sicatoka]

Yesterday's action was by the UNIVERSITY Senate (made up of faculty), not the Student Senate.

That is all. Thank you.

[GeauxSioux]

UND and the Big Sky: Who said what, when?

Rep. Al Carlson, R-Fargo, used North Dakota open records law last week to obtain emails between UND President Robert Kelley, the Big Sky Conference and the NCAA since Jan. 1, apparently seeking to learn whether Kelley was working behind the scenes to counter Carlson

[star2city]

UND and the Big Sky: Who said what, when?

Having been vilified on this forum for suggesting that Kelley and the NCAA have been in contact with each other, the truth comes out that affirms what I wrote:

Another of the emails was sent on April 4 by UND Provost Paul LeBel to Mark Emmert, president of the NCAA, and NCAA Vice President Bernard Franklin, attaching a copy of a resolution adopted by the Great Plains Tribal Chairman’s Association.

“President Kelley suggested that you need to see the attached resolution,” LeBel wrote to Emmert and Franklin.

Hmm.... noted activist Sharon Carson forwards the note to Provost Paul LeBel, who in turns forwards the note to the NCAA, on behalf of Kelley. Not like Kelley was forwarding anything from Jody Hodson or Spirit Lake, but Sharon Carson: the author of like 20 anti-nickname letters to the Herald.

Kelley has done the same damn thing with the Big Sky that he did with the Summit League Presidents and Commissioner: gained a statement from the Commissioner threatening UND's athletic membership due to the nickname, when both conferences would still accept UND even with the nickname.

If that's not grounds for dismissal, not sure what possibly could be.

And yet most of this board is in denial.

Kelley's been playing the NCAA against us all the time, and most of this board wants to trust him and his double-dealing ways?

[johnsowe]

It looks like there is more going on here that meets the eye.

[PhillySioux]

Having been vilified on this forum for suggesting that Kelley and the NCAA have been in contact with each other, the truth comes out that affirms what I wrote:

Kelley has done the same damn thing with the Big Sky that he did with the Summit League Presidents and Commissioner: gained a statement from the Commissioner threatening UND's athletic membership due to the nickname, when both conferences would still accept UND even with the nickname.

If that's not grounds for dismissal, not sure what possibly could be.

And yet most of this board is in denial.

Kelley's been playing the NCAA against us all the time, and most of this board wants to trust him and his double-dealing ways?

How do you glean this from the story or the emails? I know you believe this to be true (and it may be for all I know) but the story does nothing to prove it.

[ticklethetwine]

How do you glean this from the story or the emails? I know you believe this to be true (and it may be for all I know) but the story does nothing to prove it.

In defense you sure didn't see an email from the provost sent to the nc$$ attaching the results of the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe that voted in favor of the sioux name. You would think that would be just as important news as this satisfied at least half of the two tribe permission we need.

[star2city]

How do you glean this from the story or the emails? I know you believe this to be true (and it may be for all I know) but the story does nothing to prove it.

There are other conference commissioners that will clearly state - a least in private - that a nickname issue would not be insurmountable.

Unless there is something in it for them (the other conference commissioners), they will not state that in public, so as not to anger the NCAA.

[PhillySioux]

In defense you sure didn't see an email from the provost sent to the nc$$ attaching the results of the sioux tribe that voted in favor of the sioux name.

Has a tribe voted to do so since January 1, 2011?

[star2city]

June 16, 2011

NCAA President Emmert to UND President Kelley in an email:

"Dr. Emmert would like to have a phone conversation with President Kelley today. Please let me know if this would be possible and what time would work."

A UND spokesman says the conversation was about the upcoming meeting in Indianapolis.

But the next day, the NCAA issues this press release:

NCAA Press Release on SIoux Nickname, June 17th 2011

The NCAA press release includes faulty information: the Big Sky hasn't voted on any sanctions according to Big Sky Commissioner Fullerton. Yet the NCAA says it has. Where did Emmert get this erroneous information?

What's with the local press? Aren't they ashamed that they didn't pursue the information themselves, but relied on Al Carlson to hand it to them?

[PhillySioux]

June 16, 2011

NCAA President Emmert to UND President Kelley in an email:

"Dr. Emmert would like to have a phone conversation with President Kelley today. Please let me know if this would be possible and what time would work."

A UND spokesman says the conversation was about the upcoming meeting in Indianapolis.

But the next day, the NCAA issues this press release:

NCAA Press Release on SIoux Nickname, June 17th 2011

The NCAA press release includes faulty information: the Big Sky hasn't voted on any sanctions according to Big Sky Commissioner Fullerton. Yet the NCAA says it has. Where did Emmert get this erroneous information?

What's with the local press? Aren't they ashamed that they didn't pursue the information themselves, but relied on Al Carlson to hand it to them?

Where in the release below does the NCAA say that the BSC has voted on sanctions?

NCAA statement on North Dakota mascot issue

The NCAA

[star2city]

Where in the release below does the NCAA say that the BSC has voted on sanctions?

In order for the Big Sky to have a position, it would need to have voted. The nickname concern expressed by the Sky, however serious, is not a policy. Fullerton has denied a vote has occured and denied that there is a formal policy, while the NCAA states the Big Sky has a policy.

The only person stating that the Big Sky has voted and has a policy has been Kelley.

The Big Sky Conference’s position related to the university's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo is consistent with the spirit and intent of the settlement agreement the NCAA reached with the university to retire the nickname and logo.

[PhillySioux]

In order for the Big Sky to have a position, it would need to have voted. The nickname concern expressed by the Sky, however serious, is not a policy. Fullerton has denied a vote has occured and denied that there is a formal policy, while the NCAA states the Big Sky has a policy.

The only person stating that the Big Sky has voted and has a policy has been Kelley.

I guess I missed the "Terms Defined" section of the press release.

[GeauxSioux]

Why was Carlson's FOIA request sent to Kelley and not the SBoHE? Kelley works for the SBoHE. Is this another poke in the eye of SBoHE?

Why does he request the correspondence between UND and ANY athletic conference since January 1st? Is he afraid UND is possibly talking to someone else? Another conference that he can submarine UND's chances with? If he meant WCHA, why not just say BIg Sky and WCHA?

And what is with the tone of the letter, waive any costs for providing the information and I want it immediately or tell me why I can't have it immediately?

This is another Carlson power trip.

Edit: He wanted them immediately...

Carlson, visiting Medora, N.D., with his wife, said Tuesday he has received the emails “but I haven’t had a chance to look at them yet. I’ll do that when I get home.

Power Trip. Edited June 29, 2011 by GeauxSioux

[Ranger]

time to call in the Feds.

[Ranger]

Why was Carlson's FOIA request sent to Kelley and not the SBoHE? Kelley works for the SBoHE. Is this another poke in the eye of SBoHE?

Why does he request the correspondence between UND and ANY athletic conference since January 1st? Is he afraid UND is possibly talking to someone else? Another conference that he can submarine UND's chances with? If he meant WCHA, why not just say BIg Sky and WCHA?

And what is with the tone of the letter, waive any costs for providing the information and I want it immediately or tell me why I can't have it immediately?

This is another Carlson power trip.

Edit: He wanted them immediately... Power Trip.

Ummm... that's standard FOIA language.

[ScottM]

time to call in the Feds.

Who's going to call them? The MIA delegation representing the state in DC? On another thread, some useful idiots are emailing the same useful idiots in Bismarck who got UND into this quandry. I'm surprised their next "tactic" isn't to stage a hunger strike on I-29 over the 4th of July weekend ...

[VMeister]

Sioux pride, and what it stands for, is definitely absent in the Student Senate and President's Office.

The Sioux pride I know is also about honoring bravery and integrity.

Everything since November has been about how to circumvent an agreement North Dakota voluntarily made that didn

[Cratter]

UND and the Big Sky: Who said what, when?

Looks like stars done it again. Ahead of the curve. Looking beyond the surface.

Looks like Kelley is lying again. He needs to go. Its truly shameful for the University to have such a president.

And what a great day it is! We passed the law that now gets us to a "spectrum of Hope" meeting with the NCAA. That would have never happened without the bill. Even if nothing happens from the meeting at least we fought til the end like a Fighting Sioux would do!

[SooToo]

Looks like stars done it again. Ahead of the curve. Looking beyond the surface.

Looks like Kelley is lying again. He needs to go. Its truly shameful for the University to have such a president.

And what a great day it is! We passed the law that now gets us to a "spectrum of Hope" meeting with the NCAA. That would have never happened without the bill. Even if nothing happens from the meeting at least we fought til the end like a Fighting Sioux would do!

Yep, he's done it again. Still adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 5. Say what you want about Kelley, but I think we've hit the jackpot with this guy; Star's convinced me he has single-handedly dictated policy and position to the NCAA and two conferences of which we're not even a member. What can he accomplish for UND two years from now working a gaggle of addle-headed legislators?

Seriously, I doubt you'll find many critics here of a meeting with the NCAA. If you want to pat Al Carlson on the back for making it happen, well good for you. It's just that most posters think there's zero chance of a meaningful change. But go ahead; surprise us.

What I'm waiting for are the promises from the nickname-only crowd that when the NCAA-Carlson meeting ends, the issue is over. No more talk of "letting it play out" into eternity. No more talk about lawsuits, referendums or appeals to the state's congressional delegation, all of whom (John Hoeven included) have run as fast as they can away from this issue. Give the meeting a chance, but when it's over, give it up for the sake of the university.

[The Sicatoka]

time to call in the Feds.

Like whom, the Office of Civil Rights? Oh yeah, ... that'll help.

[star2city]

Yep, he's done it again. Still adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 5. Say what you want about Kelley, but I think we've hit the jackpot with this guy; Star's convinced me he has single-handedly dictated policy and position to the NCAA and two conferences of which we're not even a member. What can he accomplish for UND two years from now working a gaggle of addle-headed legislators?

Seriously, I doubt you'll find many critics here of a meeting with the NCAA. If you want to pat Al Carlson on the back for making it happen, well good for you. It's just that most posters think there's zero chance of a meaningful change. But go ahead; surprise us.

What I'm waiting for are the promises from the nickname-only crowd that when the NCAA-Carlson meeting ends, the issue is over. No more talk of "letting it play out" into eternity. No more talk about lawsuits, referendums or appeals to the state's congressional delegation, all of whom (John Hoeven included) have run as fast as they can away from this issue. Give the meeting a chance, but when it's over, give it up for the sake of the university.

Higher math and logic obviously isn't your forte. BTW 2^5 == 32. (That will go way over your head, so why try.)

Excuse Kelley all you want - the emails to the NCAA and the conversation with Emmert the day before the press release, Douple's accusation, in your pinheaded mind, Kelley will always be heroic. Anything to rid UND of the Sioux name, or Alice Hofferth, is entirely ethically justifiable as far as your ethics go.

The only reason Kelley isn't out of his job is because Kelley can implicate a whole lot of people - Hoeven, Goetz, the SBoHE - in the deal that the people were never supposed to hear about: the Sioux nickname was always a target among the political establishment. The lawsuit settlement was always a sham. The political establishment underestimated the people: it never dreamed that Spirit Lake would come through or that Carlson would take action. The political establishment - now mainly Hoeven - can't afford for the real truth to come out.

That's why Schafer had to come out today against further state action against the nickname: the moderate Republicans don't want Kelley to implicate Hoeven in the whole nickname charade that was played by the SBoHE and Goetz. Hoeven's repuation has to be protected, so the nickname has to go.

The people of North Dakota, be it Spirit Lake, Standing Rock, or the general population never had a choice in this matter. Hoeven, Conrad, Pomeroy, Dorgan, and the SBoHE preordained that the nickname effort would fail. Those leaders are the true villains in this tale, not just Kelley.

[The Sicatoka]

The only reason Kelley isn't out of his job is because Kelley can implicate a whole lot of people - Hoeven, Goetz, the SBoHE - in the deal that the people were never supposed to hear about: the Sioux nickname was always a target among the political establishment.

The day the settlement was announced Goetz talked about a change in public policy. Goetz was the NDUS Chancellor at the time, having just previously been Gov. Hoeven's chief of staff. Given that, you know the change had to come from the highest levels in Bismarck.

The fix was in right there. Apparently Al Carlson didn't get the memo.

The specifics on what Goetz said:

http://www.uscho.com/2007/10/26/north-dakota-ncaa-reach-outofcourt-settlement-in-nickname-dispute/#ixzz1QnH6BzTi

“We have today before us a dynamic in terms of a change in public policy that’s being brought forward,” said William Goetz, North Dakota University System chancellor. “This is the recognition of the tribes and how they will be given an opportunity to weigh in on this issue, as should be the case.”

[darell1976]

So we have our "drop the name supporters" and we have the "don't even think about it" supporters. If UND retired the name and logo...would all you "don't even think about it" people Not cheer for UND anymore, and/or support some other school? Even though Central changed its name I still support Central. Of course I say go Redskins, or go Maroon and Grey. I would not dis Central and cheer for Red River.