I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm talking about here

[Stromer]

This is how we are going to end up with some really stupid replacement name because of apathy.

Its not apathy. I'd do almost anything to keep the name, be it traveling to Indy to stage a protest or contributing to the tribes in exchange for letting us use the name. The one thing I won't do, however, is allow this great university to be weakened waiting around for a pipe dream to come true. As much as we want it to, Standing Rock is not going to help us out. The tribes have been given a chance to change the status quo. Standing Rock has choosen not to. Whether thats the true will of the people is up for debate. But as we have seen with our current United States government, the true will of the people is not always the will that wins out. Its an unfortunate reality of life and the sooner we can get past this, the stronger this university will become.

[82SiouxGuy]

Sounds like we need a ss.com poll to see if it's 75-25 here.

I would be willing to bet that it won't be. Some of the strongest nickname proponents are probably members of this board. Remember, there are a lot of alums that are not sports fans and I would bet that a large majority of them are willing to let the name be changed because they don't have much invested in the name. They won't be voting in a SS.com poll. Plus, as we saw with the most important UND sports moment of the 2000's, internet polls like this have no scientific accuracy. But it will be interesting to see how this poll comes out.

[82SiouxGuy]

Its not apathy. I'd do almost anything to keep the name, be it traveling to Indy to stage a protest or contributing to the tribes in exchange for letting us use the name. The one thing I won't do, however, is allow this great university to be weakened waiting around for a pipe dream to come true. As much as we want it to, Standing Rock is not going to help us out. The tribes have been given a chance to change the status quo. Standing Rock has choosen not to. Whether thats the true will of the people is up for debate. But as we have seen with our current United States government, the true will of the people is not always the will that wins out. Its an unfortunate reality of life and the sooner we can get past this, the stronger this university will become.

I agree that this isn't apathy. As a matter of fact, I would expect a lot of interest in a new name so apathy won't be a problem with that process. A bigger concern would be division of the fanbase because of the way the name had to be retired. It will be hard to find a name that a significant portion of the students, alums and employees can agree on.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure interested in what their approach might be. I can't picture any more than a referendum and a symbolic victory at this point. I could be wrong.

We all could be wrong on this topic. My guess (as a non-lawyer) is that they are going to the courts to appeal the ruling against holding a referendum. They will probably use the tribal attorney's opinion that the reservation has to allow a referendum process because the citizens should have the same rights as North Dakota residents. But even if they can get the courts to rule in their favor, is there time to get everything done by November 30th? They need to have a hearing, the judge has to rule in their favor, that ruling would have to go back to the tribal council, they would have to agree to go ahead, they would have to set up a referendum process (they don't currently have one), notice would have to be given of the election (probably 60 to 90 days), the election held, results taken back to the tribal council, tribal council would have to agree to follow the wishes of the election, tribal council pass a resolution if the referendum is approved and the SBoHE review the resolution then bring the name back. They have approximately 107 days to get all of that done. Is it technically possible to get all of that done in the time left? Yes. Is there much of a chance knowing how slow things normally happen in tribal government? My guess is the chances are slim and none. And that is if the court even agrees to hear the case.

[passit_offthegoalie]

.

I find it funny that you would accuse others of being obsessive. Personally, I would rather be the kind of person who obsesses over something positively, something that I enjoy, instead of a jerk, like you, who is obsessed with other people's unhappiness.

You're like those people that hold up "God Hates Fags" signs at soldier's funerals.

[Blackheart]

I find it funny that you would accuse others of being obsessive. Personally, I would rather be the kind of person who obsesses over something positively, something that I enjoy, instead of a jerk, like you, who is obsessed with other people's unhappiness.

You're like those people that hold up "God Hates Fags" signs at soldier's funerals.

You nailed it!! That's our D-bag!

[yababy8]

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

I think your weakness, 82 SIOUX guy, is that you have never lived outside of North Dakota, you have no good perspective on how being a Sioux Fan is a unique. I have lived in several WCHA cities; MSP, St. Cloud, Colorado Springs, and Denver. I experience the other side, I hear the curious inquisitions from fans all over about the Sioux, their tradition, their arena, and how they have battled to keep their name or how they have a bonded passion and support for their team.

As people would sit in Magness Arena in the season after their team, the Pioneers, won a national championship, I would see them, hear them, speak of the Sioux fans with disbelief as they marveled at how their arena that they never filled would be filled with Sioux Fans. One group would ask me or one of the many Sioux fans around me if I could explain to them how the heck all of these Sioux Fans could travel to away games. To which I always reply, "they didn't, they live here."

Ya know, 82 SIOUX guy, I wonder what would be worth it for you to "Risk it" for? I wonder what you might have fought for in your life and if so, how that worked out. See, me, my view is that just about every single person in our country has no clue how they would even begin to fight for something. We drool as we watch the news and wait endlessly for something to remind us to move our will at all. We think we have will but much like a paralized person has a feeling like they will be able to walk again, we all think that we could fight for something if we needed to for the "right" cause but I don't think it's in us at all. I think we are told how to think and that includes being told when to protest, which is just about exactly never.

So what I will suggest to you as well as all Sioux fans, of which there are many;

Try to think for your self a moment.

You should think about all of the people in our country and where they all live. Think about all of the towns of 30 or 40 thousand people in states like Montana, South Dakota, Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, ya know, states like North Dakota- with nobody in them. Then ask yourself,

"How many of them get to live in a place that has anything equivolent to what you have there in Grand Forks?" Something that people talk about a thousand miles away in a big city where their arena is transformed into a vertual Sioux home game right before their marveling eyes. And think about how many of those places have an arena that is a palace worthy of a Roman Collisium to watch their team battle. I grew up in a town the size of Grand Forks and I can tell you just about how crazy it would be to think of something like the Ralph being erected out of the dirt in my hometown. It is a thing of dreams.

I once took a work buddy of mine from Denver to a game at the Ralph. He played D2 college hockey out east in the 80's. As we sat down in our seats before the game during the warm-up skate, he literally began to cry. I said, "fricking amazing huh"

to which he replied, " I never in a million years would have guess that college hockey would have something like this. I am speachless" He wasn't just talking about the arena either. To this day, seven years later, he and my other buddy from Denver still tell people about how during the day of the Sioux game they were asked by people from waitresses to bank tellers if they were going to "the game" tonight.

They couldn't believe that all across a city, people refered to a Sioux game as, "the Game".

Anyway, to quote Forest a bit, 'Amazing is as amazing does', and maybe it requires amazing to stop the momentum of this unjustified theft of our identity and again maybe we just don't have it in us to be amazing.

So then I guess we don't deserve what we have in the dirt and the souls of our Sioux brothers?

Well at least you don't- So maybe you should change your F_cking name, 82 SIOUX guy.

That's all I have to say about that...

[sprig]

Plus, as we saw with the most important UND sports moment of the 2000's, internet polls like this have no scientific accuracy. But it will be interesting to see how this poll comes out.

Of course no scientific accuracy, but still a bit better than the 75-25 for immediate change that some posters have been estimating here. As far as alumni that aren't Sioux sports fans, I'm sure there are, I just don't know any.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think your weakness, 82 SIOUX guy, is that you have never lived outside of North Dakota, you have no good perspective on how being a Sioux Fan is a unique. I have lived in several WCHA cities; MSP, St. Cloud, Colorado Springs, and Denver. I experience the other side, I hear the curious inquisitions from fans all over about the Sioux, their tradition, their arena, and how they have battled to keep their name or how they have a bonded passion and support for their team.

As people would sit in Magness Arena in the season after their team, the Pioneers, won a national championship, I would see them, hear them, speak of the Sioux fans with disbelief as they marveled at how their arena that they never filled would be filled with Sioux Fans. One group would ask me or one of the many Sioux fans around me if I could explain to them how the heck all of these Sioux Fans could travel to away games. To which I always reply, "they didn't, they live here."

Ya know, 82 SIOUX guy, I wonder what would be worth it for you to "Risk it" for? I wonder what you might have fought for in your life and if so, how that worked out. See, me, my view is that just about every single person in our country has no clue how they would even begin to fight for something. We drool as we watch the news and wait endlessly for something to remind us to move our will at all. We think we have will but much like a paralized person has a feeling like they will be able to walk again, we all think that we could fight for something if we needed to for the "right" cause but I don't think it's in us at all. I think we are told how to think and that includes being told when to protest, which is just about exactly never.

So what I will suggest to you as well as all Sioux fans, of which there are many;

Try to think for your self a moment.

You should think about all of the people in our country and where they all live. Think about all of the towns of 30 or 40 thousand people in states like Montana, South Dakota, Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, ya know, states like North Dakota- with nobody in them. Then ask yourself,

"How many of them get to live in a place that has anything equivolent to what you have there in Grand Forks?" Something that people talk about a thousand miles away in a big city where their arena is transformed into a vertual Sioux home game right before their marveling eyes. And think about how many of those places have an arena that is a palace worthy of a Roman Collisium to watch their team battle. I grew up in a town the size of Grand Forks and I can tell you just about how crazy it would be to think of something like the Ralph being erected out of the dirt in my hometown. It is a thing of dreams.

I once took a work buddy of mine from Denver to a game at the Ralph. He played D2 college hockey out east in the 80's. As we sat down in our seats before the game during the warm-up skate, he literally began to cry. I said, "fricking amazing huh"

to which he replied, " I never in a million years would have guess that college hockey would have something like this. I am speachless" He wasn't just talking about the arena either. To this day, seven years later, he and my other buddy from Denver still tell people about how during the day of the Sioux game they were asked by people from waitresses to bank tellers if they were going to "the game" tonight.

They couldn't believe that all across a city, people refered to a Sioux game as, "the Game".

Anyway, to quote Forest a bit, 'Amazing is as amazing does', and maybe it requires amazing to stop the momentum of this unjustified theft of our identity and again maybe we just don't have it in us to be amazing.

So then I guess we don't deserve what we have in the dirt and the souls of our Sioux brothers?

Well at least you don't- So maybe you should change your F_cking name, 82 SIOUX guy.

That's all I have to say about that...

You sir (and I'm using that term loosely because of your insult), are clueless about who I am or where I've been. I didn't say that I've lived here all my life. I was born here but I actually moved away for several years. I lived on the West Coast, in Washington state, for almost 2 years. And I lived in the Twin Cities for more than 4 years. Then I returned to Grand Forks because it is a great community to live in and because my family was still in the area. Besides that I have traveled extensively throughout the United States. I have worn my Fighting Sioux gear all over this fine country of ours. And had some great conversations with people because of it. But I have been around the country and experienced the attitudes of others in all parts of the country so I have a little more perspective than you realize.

Most of the attitudes you speak of are not going to disappear if the name changes. The Ralph Engelstad Arena is not going away if the name changes. Grand Forks is not going away if the name changes. The alumni base is not going away if the name changes. People will still go to "the Game". UND fans will still go to games in Denver, Minneapolis and other places. The name is part of the allure, but it is the University and the community and the support that the alums bring that makes this a special situation. There will be angry people and there will be some repercussions, but much of that will fade with time. UND and its fans will still be a great story.

I tend to pick my battles instead of tilting at windmills. I pick the battles that I believe are most important. And I pick battles that I at least have a chance of winning. I've battled unemployment when a 130 year old company I was working for went from record sales to bankruptcy and out of business in less than a year. I've helped friends and family battle disease, and battled my own injuries. I've worked to help save organizations that I felt are important. I supported the battle to keep the name for years, even after the settlement when I knew that the chances were slim. But after the Standing Rock election when it became apparent that they were going to continue to stand in the way, and they were the only body that could save the name, I realized that the end was near. If you want to keep going until the bitter end, go ahead. Just don't insult those of us that choose a different battle.

I was born and raised a Fighting Sioux fan. I will always believe that the name should have been allowed to remain in use. But if (probably when) the University of North Dakota starts using a new nickname, I will support that name also because I believe it is the institution that is most important. The nickname is only a small part of the whole that is the University of North Dakota.

[dani_3333]

What happened in standing up for what you believe in? I am one of those that will NOT give up until there is not hope left. The fight is far from over and yes I believe that in the end the people of Standing Rock will get to vote. I will keep on keeping on with this until it's all said and done with.

Im not continuing my efforts because Im OBSESSED Im continuing my efforts because Im going to 100% stand up for what I believe in.

~Fight on Sioux~

BTW I will be meeting with Archie and Eunice on Saturday and if anyone has any ideas they would like brought to the table please email them to fightingsioux@ymail.com

[MplsBison]

You sir (and I'm using that term loosely because of your insult), are clueless about who I am or where I've been. I didn't say that I've lived here all my life. I was born here but I actually moved away for several years. I lived on the West Coast, in Washington state, for almost 2 years. And I lived in the Twin Cities for more than 4 years. Then I returned to Grand Forks because it is a great community to live in and because my family was still in the area. Besides that I have traveled extensively throughout the United States. I have worn my Fighting Sioux gear all over this fine country of ours. And had some great conversations with people because of it. But I have been around the country and experienced the attitudes of others in all parts of the country so I have a little more perspective than you realize.

Most of the attitudes you speak of are not going to disappear if the name changes. The Ralph Engelstad Arena is not going away if the name changes. Grand Forks is not going away if the name changes. The alumni base is not going away if the name changes. People will still go to "the Game". UND fans will still go to games in Denver, Minneapolis and other places. The name is part of the allure, but it is the University and the community and the support that the alums bring that makes this a special situation. There will be angry people and there will be some repercussions, but much of that will fade with time. UND and its fans will still be a great story.

I tend to pick my battles instead of tilting at windmills. I pick the battles that I believe are most important. And I pick battles that I at least have a chance of winning. I've battled unemployment when a 130 year old company I was working for went from record sales to bankruptcy and out of business in less than a year. I've helped friends and family battle disease, and battled my own injuries. I've worked to help save organizations that I felt are important. I supported the battle to keep the name for years, even after the settlement when I knew that the chances were slim. But after the Standing Rock election when it became apparent that they were going to continue to stand in the way, and they were the only body that could save the name, I realized that the end was near. If you want to keep going until the bitter end, go ahead. Just don't insult those of us that choose a different battle.

I was born and raised a Fighting Sioux fan. I will always believe that the name should have been allowed to remain in use. But if (probably when) the University of North Dakota starts using a new nickname, I will support that name also because I believe it is the institution that is most important. The nickname is only a small part of the whole that is the University of North Dakota.

There is absolutely no need for your to explain yourself to some of the mouth breathers on this forum. You're never going to convince them anyway.

But it is still nice to read such well written posts from your side of the argument, the side of rational people and the side of the majority of UND alumni. It's too bad that in most internet message boards, it's the very few extermists that often have try to project themselves as being the majority when it's not true.

[82SiouxGuy]

What happened in standing up for what you believe in? I am one of those that will NOT give up until there is not hope left. The fight is far from over and yes I believe that in the end the people of Standing Rock will get to vote. I will keep on keeping on with this until it's all said and done with.

Im not continuing my efforts because Im OBSESSED Im continuing my efforts because Im going to 100% stand up for what I believe in.

~Fight on Sioux~

BTW I will be meeting with Archie and Eunice on Saturday and if anyone has any ideas they would like brought to the table please email them to fightingsioux@ymail.com

There is absolutely nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe. There are 2 main challenges in accomplishing your goal. Mr. Fool Bear and his group have to find a way to overcome the opposition on the tribal council both to hold the election and to follow the wishes of the people. And the entire issue has to be settled by the close of business on November 30th. That is just over 15 weeks, or about 107 days. The list of things to do during that time includes:

They need to have a hearing, the judge has to rule in their favor, that ruling would have to go back to the tribal council, they would have to agree to go ahead, they would have to set up a referendum process (they don't currently have one), notice would have to be given of the election (probably 60 to 90 days), the election held, results taken back to the tribal council, tribal council would have to agree to follow the wishes of the election, tribal council pass a resolution if the referendum is approved and the SBoHE review the resolution then bring the name back.

Oh yeah, the election has to go the right way too (probable but not guaranteed). Go ahead and continue to fight the good fight, and good luck because you are going to need lots of that.

[Goon]

There is absolutely no need for your to explain yourself to some of the mouth breathers on this forum. You're never going to convince them anyway.

But it is still nice to read such well written posts from your side of the argument, the side of rational people and the side of the majority of UND alumni. It's too bad that in most internet message boards, it's the very few extermists that often have try to project themselves as being the majority when it's not true.

Bisonturd, I would definitely put you in the mouth breather group...

anyone who you see with their mouth wide open, like a booger has clogged their nasal orifice. They just look like they're dumb, doing everything with their mouth open, with no care in the world.

[dagies]

Let's stop with the name calling.

Let's also make sure we are not arguing for the pure sake of argument, or to rile up other posters.

Legitimate dissent and discussion....have at it.

[Goon]

Let's stop with the name calling.

Let's also make sure we are not arguing for the pure sake of argument, or to rile up other posters.

Legitimate dissent and discussion....have at it.

Actually if the moderaters would talk to, reprimand or suspend the trolls/sockpuppets like MplsBison Fan and or finally revoke his access we probably wouldn't have every thread degrading into a moronathon, flame feast and name calling exercise. However, as Dirty had mentioned about a week ago, trolls are allowed to just post drivel and take over threads and basically ruin the experience for everyone.

[Chewey]

What I object to is Faison and Kelley not even advocating seriously for keeping the name. Had the top administrators been on board, would it have made a difference at SR? Maybe or maybe not. However, a lot more who are in support of the nickname, especially the natives who support it, would have at least seen that they care about the nickname and would not have felt completely disrespected. As it was/is, Faison and Kelley care more about placating the few vocal and incendiary nut jobs on campus. This is what happens -- both as to Kelley/Faison and the academic lunatic fringe -- when people marinate for years in a disturbing brew of unimaginative academic redundancy, cerebral indolence and intellectual sloth combined with a pinch of self-aggrandizement and a massive dash of narcissism. What is the product when all is done? An intellectually inert paper pushing potted plant that finds some twisted expression of self-importance fed and stroked by something as mundane as a sports team nickname. I would bet that the professors who oppose the nickname have not had a single synapse truly stimulated in decades.

[UNDvince97-01]

I will forever hate the Summit League

Fine. Hate the Summit then. Same goes for the others who have this sentiment. Just dont hate UND's teams that potentially join the Summit. Don't punish the teams, coaches and student-athletes.

Bottom line is Standing Rock didnt get it done when they needed to. I dont hate their people for it. However, I have quite a distaste for their tribal council.

[MplsBison]

Fine. Hate the Summit then. Same goes for the others who have this sentiment. Just dont hate UND's teams that potentially join the Summit. Don't punish the teams, coaches and student-athletes.

Bottom line is Standing Rock didnt get it done when they needed to. I dont hate their people for it. However, I have quite a distaste for their tribal council.

And there it is, the raw, naked truth: as soon as the Spirit Lake voted their support for the nickname, every single card was placed into the Standing Rock Tribal Council's hand.

The Summit had zero to do with the SR tribal council's inaction.

[Fetch]

the summit thing took the wind right out of the sails of so many & too many thought this league was more important than the name --- I find that SAD

& now there are polls in the D1 thread about which league to join ..........?

& more than likely they will jump ship at the 1st opportunity

I wonder how many would even want to go D1 if they knew the name would be effected ?

[GeauxSioux]

the summit thing took the wind right out of the sails of so many & too many thought this league was more important than the name --- I find that SAD

& now there are polls in the D1 thread about which league to join ..........? & more than likely they will jump ship at the 1st opportunity

I wonder how many would even want to go D1 if they knew the name would be effected ?

The change to Division I had nothing to do with the name change. The now inevitable name change would have occurred regardless of classification.

[Fetch]

Well Fasion & Kelly used the Summit as reason to move on & do so quickly & then it appeared to me there was little support for the name from the SBOHE

which seems fickle - when just a few yrs earlier the SBOHE voted unamiously to keep the name - essentially now stabbing Ralph & Family in the back (fickle is to nice of a word )

[the green team]

Well Fasion & Kelly used the Summit as reason to move on & do so quickly & then it appeared to me there was little support for the name from the SBOHE

which seems fickle - when just a few yrs earlier the SBOHE voted unamiously to keep the name - essentially now stabbing Ralph & Family in the back (fickle is to nice of a word )

Stabbed in the back...I'm assuming you mean literally? Why hasn't anyone called anyone to report this?

[UNDvince97-01]

the summit thing took the wind right out of the sails of so many & too many thought this league was more important than the name --- I find that SAD

& now there are polls in the D1 thread about which league to join ..........?

& more than likely they will jump ship at the 1st opportunity

I wonder how many would even want to go D1 if they knew the name would be effected ?

I would hope that absolutely NOBODY thinks the Summit League is more important than the Sioux name. I would be the first to say the opposite in fact. However, given the timing of everything (SR had PLENTY of time btw), it turned out that they could not get the support they needed per the settlement with the NCAA, in time to do what was in the best interest of the UND and the athletic dept. As much as it may seem otherwise to some, UND does have "other sports" besides hockey that they have to deal with.

The new SR tribal council chairman (Murphy) promised the UND administration, REA and a very loyal fanbase something that he could not deliver - a simple vote of the people. In fact, Charlie Murphy used that platform to win himself an election at SR. I'm not blaming it on Charlie Murphy, simply stating the facts.

I can guarantee you that if SR gets their $&*t together between now and when the name is scheduled to be retired, Kelly would definitely revisit and try to overturn the outcome to the SBOHE, given we received the outcome we need - a vote of support from SR's people for use of the name and logo for 30 years or more. Kelly and Faison would be committing suicide by not going back to the SBOHE to get it reversed if such an outcome occurred.

NOBODY wanted to see the name and logo go. NOBODY. Unfortunately without the support of the SR people, it was simply a matter of time thanks to the NCAA, who is really the entity behind of all of this crap that you should hate. Well them, The Summit League and Douple.

[Fetch]

don't forget the NCAA

I still wonder if SR was really given total support or did they see weakness in Kelly & the SBOHE & anyone else (scapegoats) who deserves some of the blame

[UNDvince97-01]

By the way, I would like to make it known that I have not given up on the name and logo, and probably never will. Even after we officially have to drop it, I dont think we should close any windows of opportunity for the future. My gut (its a big one at that) says it could come back to us in the near future.

This is precisely the reason why I really hope we dont choose some cheapened nickname and logo in the place of something we have all been so proud of for so many years.

I dont think I could bring myself to purchase any new clothing or apparel with a different name and/or logo. It just wouldn't feel right.

We are simply The University of North Dakota....

.....

.....

.....

....

.....FIGHTING SIOUX!!!